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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 7:15:48 PM | @Sunrise,
"A Co Roscommon mother-of-six has been to sentenced seven years in prison after pleading guilty to incest, sexual assault and neglect of her children.
The woman was told by the sentencing judge she had destroyed the lives of her six children who from the moment they were born knew nothing but cruelty and neglect."
That's in Ireland, is it not? And would you not wish for the kids to be taken from the mum in this case?
Abuse is abuse, mental or physical. This one in Canada wasn't too far above the one in Ireland, from what I can tell.
And not to be insensitive, but SweetnessintheKeys, I don't understand why you keep posting here, if you can't relate to any of the threads - which seems to be a theme. You can't understand why some of us bash our exes, right? Yes, you had a wonderful husband; yes, it's a tragedy that he was taken from you. Perhaps you should be posting on a different board, though, like bereaved parents? Unless you have some advice on how I can (not) tell my kids their dad was an awful, awful person when we left him. In that case, I'm all ears. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 8:39:43 PM | My 9 year old daughter was biologically from a different man, who is an ex, and very much still alive and kicking. I do have an ex besides the husband. I often forget i even have one, thats how little of my brainspace he occupies.
I do not bash him nor fight with him nor run him in and out of court. I actually rarely even think about him.
Just dont tell them anything bad or argue in front of the kids is all i can say. I witnessed that as a child and it hurt deeply.
Many childless people post here, so i assumed single parents was open to anyone, but if ex drama and hatred is part of the rules for single parent discussions, i guess i am a fish out of water here. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:26:22 PM |
but if ex drama and hatred is part of the rules for single parent discussions, i guess i am a fish out of water here.
Amen - welcome to the Other Pond LOL My daughter does not have a father, and I am a single parent in it's truest form. No ex issues, no custody drama, no financial nightmares... but I can still have an opinion on various topics. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 2:35:09 AM | I read this thread and thought...hmm...there are three sides to every story.
The article in the Star obviously showed favour to the father based on the ruling that the judge in this case made..it's a front page hook ..and FYI...I can almost gurauntee that the ruling and order that was made will be overturned in appeal.
Funny thing happens when you google a hot topic like this...you get to see both sides of the story..
http://batteredmomslosecustody.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/canadian-children-taken-captive-in-parental-alienation-scam-case/
I am not picking sides in this case..sounds like both parents were wrong.
You do though, have to wonder what kind of circus that this Father has created for his children to be subjected too, by allowing the decision to be made public so quickly..
One thing for sure is that family lawyers all over Canada are working this weekend and trying to find an angle where they can use this ruling to their clients advantage.
If anything, this recent ruling has opened up a big can of worms that the courts are soo not ready to deal with.
Thank gawd I called a truce with my ex..read the link....check out the other side to this story...we haven't heard the last about this case. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 8:12:57 AM |
And not to be insensitive, but SweetnessintheKeys, I don't understand why you keep posting here, if you can't relate to any of the threads - which seems to be a theme. You can't understand why some of us bash our exes, right? Yes, you had a wonderful husband; yes, it's a tragedy that he was taken from you. Perhaps you should be posting on a different board, though, like bereaved parents? Unless you have some advice on how I can (not) tell my kids their dad was an awful, awful person when we left him. In that case, I'm all ears.
Since you dislike opinions and even facts that are different from your opinions, it is you and not Sweetness that shouldn't post here. This is a forum which by definition allows and encourages people to post various views and opinions. People that object to others posting anything that doesn't agree to their narrow minded opinions should avoid the forums and find some tiny group that believes as they believe. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 8:20:46 AM | lizbeth2 .. Great link !! Puts a whole new perspective on it doesn't it ???
Rachel Foundation which has already been the subject of a lawsuit for unlawful imprisonment and the psychological torture of children. That facilityemploys “therapists” of dubious character who have been the subject of Psychology Board complaints, and other legal complaints. Since they specialize in “treating” a non-accepted hypothetical syndrome, one wonders what sick minds came up with the propaganda for allowing “programming” of children against their will to obey the demands of the parent who spends the most money in court and has the most unethical expert “whores of the courts” doing their bidding.
This statement taken from the above mentioned link confirms what a lot of these cases have become .. a battle of the wits. The one with the greatest amount of money and the most devious lawyer wins. But what exactly is the prize ??? Growing up is difficult enough, without parents playing pingpong with their children's heads.
I'm not particularly religious but this biblical verse springs to mind. "wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.
What kind of seeds are these parents planting in their own flesh and blood and what do they expect to reap from them ???
Perhaps, just perhaps, in this case, the mother was justified in discontinuing visitation. Who really knows ??? I say this not because she is the female/mother, but rather maybe it is he who is doing the manipulating. We may never know the truth.
Surely some of you recall the widely publicized case of Dr. Elizabeth Morgan vs. Dr. Eric Foretich.
(http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19900227&slug=1058368)
The mother served upwards of two years jail time for her refusal to release the whereabouts of their daughter in a desperate attempt to keep her away from her allegedly sexually abusive father. What extent would any of us go to under these circumstances ??? To the best of my knowledge, these allegations were never proven, nor disproven. That does NOT mean they didn't occur.
The system(any system) is far from perfect and mistakes are made. Bribes are possible, racism, status, political connections and certainly gender bias are just a few of the many factors that may indeed contribute to the outcome of some of judicial rulings. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes. I just know I wouldn't want to be the one who has to try to determine the truth and make rulings that so drastically affects peoples lives.
It's going to be quite interesting to follow this case and see what the final outcome is.
faith,hope,love and sweetnessinthekeys .. We all have opinions, sometimes quite diverse ones, but hopefully all have something beneficial to contribute. We don't have to agree with each others points of view, but rather respect it. Giving our own experiences and perspectives as well as listening and hearing anothers serves to broaden our scope of understanding. 
It may be beneficial to take your dispute to PM .. I, for one, would hate for this thread to be binned. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 10:27:11 AM | faith,hope,love
I think you have to go off what your kids ability to understand is. My friends ex bad mouths her all the time. She takes care of 3 kids on her own with no child support or help of any kind from him. She told her 10 year old and her 8 year old that their dad is required to do certain things and the state and government help mommy enforce that (all though not very well). She explained that, he does not do what he suppose to and that is why daddy doesn't like police and gets mad at mommy. She does not bad mouth him, she explained what happen. At first they were upset with her because he was bad mouthing her and lying to the children. A few months later they start to see through all of his lies, you just have to let them slowly figure it out on their own. She didn't throw it at them, she sat them down and talked to them once and answered most of their questions.
As for psychology, I can't stand psycho analyst. I do agree with some aspects of other psychologist but Freud's tip of the iceberg believe is crap. We had a one appointed by the state tell us that if a child draws red on anything that they are angry and black means despair. So if you child draws you in your pretty red dress you like to wear or draws your house with black shutters they are in need of counseling, and let's not even discuss if your child draws a rainbow. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 11:22:46 AM |
--Kelly-1989 -- Since you dislike opinions and even facts that are different from your opinions, it is you and not Sweetness that shouldn't post here. This is a forum which by definition allows and encourages people to post various views and opinions. People that object to others posting anything that doesn't agree to their narrow minded opinions should avoid the forums and find some tiny group that believes as they believe.
Narrow minded? This statement makes you look foolish. Coming from some who thinks if you're over 35 , you should have a years income in the bank or better yet date a "big girl" they are nice and won't cheat? You're posts are like Will Ferrell! they make me laugh because its so stupid! | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:11:43 PM |
And not to be insensitive, but SweetnessintheKeys, I don't understand why you keep posting here, if you can't relate to any of the threads - which seems to be a theme. You can't understand why some of us bash our exes, right?
Well you did live with him...at one ppoint I would hope you did actually love him...or were you just sleeping with him for other reasons??? $$$$$
You made your bed...so simply tell the children it was not a good bed for you and leave it at that...
The kids are very good at making their own decisions so unless he is perhaps saying what you are likesomething similar to what you seem to enjoy doing...why open the door for a he said she said.
But then some do love wearing the victim label! | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:56:41 PM |
Perhaps, just perhaps, in this case, the mother was justified in discontinuing visitation. Who really knows ???
I don't know... I can't get the CanLII link to work. If I could see what sorts of allegations the mother had, or her "reasons" to refuse access I might be able to make an educated guess. But for now I don't know what the author of this particular piece is talking about when they say, "In another appalling case based on the never accepted, scientifically discredited theories of Pro-Pedophilia Dr. Richard Gardner, three children are being psychologically tortured, kidnapped, and deprived of their mother in another fraudulent custody change involving the fictitious parental alienation syndrome."
The author of this online article simply states an opinion without any facts from the case to substantiate it, where-as the person who wrote the newspaper article referred to things written by the judge in her decision. If I can ever get the CanLII link to work, perhaps I can see what this other person is talking about. As it stands right now, I don't see how this sheds any light on "the other side of the case". It simply seems like a rant by someone who doesn't particularly care for the professional conduct of a certain doctor. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 4:21:48 PM |
Funny thing happens when you google a hot topic like this...you get to see both sides of the story..
http://batteredmomslosecustody.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/canadian-children-taken-captive-in-parental-alienation-scam-case/
Nice try, liz, but blogs don't really count as credible sources or information. The site you posted is a personal opinion blog, NOT the other side of the story.
The JUDGE would have heard both sides of the story and ruled on the evidence given and WOULD NOT have gone to someone's biased blog for guidance.
Cheers.
(P.S. - Apparently the case is posted on CANLII under this case id - A.G.L. v. K.B.D., 2009 CanLII 943 (ON S.C.), but I couldn't get it to work, either) | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 4:36:37 PM | "who is and who isn't legitimately worried about the safety of their child(ren) ??? Which ones are bitter and out to seek revenge for a relationship gone sour ??? It appears to me that these allegations have become so common that the courts have almost become hardened to them. " - This is so true, and kids are the losers when the courts and social services become so overloaded they fail to spot the very few cases where the welfare of the children is truly at risk.
By crying wolf so often to the authorities , many warring couples unthinkingly put genuine cases of child abuse on the back burner and a very few kids end up seriously abused as a result. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/26/2009 5:14:19 PM | So I would challenge the "ladies" here who have made or written comments about men who walk away and perhaps they might realize why some have in fact made that choice when faced with the potential long and costly court battles they knew they could not wage.
And the excuse for "fathers" (or "mothers") who know they would not have faced any of that, yet walked away anyway?
Sadly, that is a convenient excuse for deadbeats to use often and maybe they even convince themselves it is true, but in the end, who has the clear conscience? I know I do.
I have a very good relationship with my older son's father as a clear example of my willingness and ability to civilly co-parent - something my exh (father of my younger son) witnessed for many years. Even tried to sabotage, unsuccessfully, a few times.
He knew that I would never prevent him from having a relationship with his son and he chose to walk away.
He has five children with three different women and has no relationships at all with any of his children or his exes - all by his own choice.
His now 15 year old daughter has tried numerous times to contact him - he ignores all her efforts.
I can sleep at night. Wonder if he can.
(BTW - glad you clarified in later posts that it is not the case in all cases of parental abandonment.) | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/27/2009 1:00:11 AM | I agree with you Capitano blogs don't count as credible sources of information...however I am sure you would agree with me when I say...niether do newspapers count as a credible source of info....
We all know you shouldn't believe everything you read!! I am sorry you guys couldn't view the CANII site..but in all fairness, you guys (who are celebrating) wouldn't have bothered to look it up on your own if I hadn't posted an opinion blog (sorry my bad) Ironically it was very similiar to the link posted on this thread earlier..only difference being is it was a link supporting a father's perspective on a blog from a men's movement group.
I am sorry, I just don't see how this ruling is any better for the kids now that the father has legal permisssion to do exactly the same thing done to him by alienating their mother. It dosen't make sense to me. It sounds like an eye for an eye theory...big can of worms to open up..I am sure we haven't heard the last of this....however it would seem that some of the factual information has become restricted on this case.
If any of you who tried to get the info that was published on CANII...you would have realized very quickly that there is a good reason the ruling was removed....
http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/scj/en/about/judgments.htm
Judgments
A collection of Superior Court of Justice judgments and Divisional Court judgments are published on CanLII. The official version of the reasons for judgment is the signed original in the court file. In the event that there is a question about the content of a judgment, the original in the court file takes precedence. These judgments may undergo editing changes after they have been released.
So Capitano....why not read more than two of the links out of the 300 hits that a google search provides on this specific subbject......just sayin  | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/27/2009 4:00:46 AM | OP,
I am sorry that your ex is badmouthing you to your kids. It must be very hard not to retaliate. I think saying that it takes both of you is a good way to put it. Because it's the truth and it's not a matter of blaming, brainwashing or manipulating. I am not sure how old your kids are. Sure kids can give you questions that are uncomfortable and difficult to answer. However the fact that they do ask, actually shows that their channels of communication are open with you and this is a good thing. I believe that essential part of keeping these channels open, is a consistent effort to answer questions truthfully. There are always various ways of how to put things without lying or avoiding the issue too much. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/27/2009 4:46:31 AM |
but in all fairness, you guys (who are celebrating) wouldn't have bothered to look it up on your own if I hadn't posted an opinion blog (sorry my bad)
And how many articles about the story supporting the judge's ruling did you have to go through before you found one that made you feel good that finally someone was speaking out against the evilness that men bring to society?
I am sorry, I just don't see how this ruling is any better for the kids now that the father has legal permisssion to do exactly the same thing done to him by alienating their mother.
Who says he's alienating them from their mother? Do you have evidence to validate this? Is he keeping the children from maintaining contact with? Do you know this individual personally that you can speak of his character this way?
The courts obviously recognized the mother's actions were detrimental to the development of the children. If you know for a fact that this was incorrect, then please by all means share the source. Until then, all I see is what amounts to the same as an older poster who would come in here and say, "This mother was just trying to keep the kids away from their father so she could shack up with another guy and get him on the hook for in loco parentis so she could dump him and get child support." Your personal hatred for men doesn't invalidate the judge's ruling any more than so-and-so's hatred for single mothers would validate it. Facts of the case please. Until then, I'd say you're just flooding this thread with irrelevent bitterness. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/27/2009 7:02:12 AM |
So Capitano....why not read more than two of the links out of the 300 hits that a google search provides on this specific subbject......just sayin
Well, liz, darling, sweetums.... I've been in these silly 'debates' with you before, where despite anything that is said, you make little logical sense and continue your little cruade to show that men should just shut up about their experience of family law.
I'm just gonna bow out now by saying that you are absolutely correct, as always. The judge clearly had no idea what she was on about and made a huge mistake. Obviously, she is biased towards men.
You win.
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/27/2009 7:13:23 AM |
but in all fairness, you guys (who are celebrating) wouldn't have bothered to look it up on your own if I hadn't posted an opinion blog (sorry my bad)
No I would never have wasted my time reading the biased or drivel that exists on a very pro woman (always victim) site. But then I would also not read from the same heavily slanted biased pro fathers web sites either. But i did with interest read the case when it was available on the website and compared it to the Toronto Star and perhaps it could be stated and easily supported the Toronto Star was very gentle in the manner they described what the father went through.
I am sorry, I just don't see how this ruling is any better for the kids now that the father has legal permission to do exactly the same thing done to him by alienating their mother.
I really feel sorry for you Lizzie...your barely disguised hatred for men and unwillingness to realize that these things do occur and custodial mothers are not all saints. Did you read about how the grandmother was attempting to solicit from her daughter that the father was in fact a rapist. I wonder how terrible it would have to be before your so heavily jaded anti father rhetoric would acknowledge that perhaps this custodial situation needs to be addressed.
And Lizzie...i would be equally supportive where any father lost his custodial position for doing the same thing...and it is also supposedly occurring ...and i can easily understand it occurring and I find disgusting any person who could do such a thing...and find more disgusting anyone who refuses to accept it is a situation that occurs and marvel at how anyone could be so blind..unless???in truth it hits a little to close to home? | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/27/2009 3:31:04 PM | Seems there has been a problem in finding the particular case in question! Being a subsriber of a news group it was posted on there.
For those who enjoy reading I have the link to this case. I might ad it's quite lengthly 154 Para's. I would draw attention to Para. 152.
[152] It is remarkable that A. L. has not given-in to the Respondent’s persistence in keeping his children from him over the last fourteen years and simply gone on with his life without the children as, no doubt, many other parents in the same situation would have and, indeed, have done. It is now time for his and the children’s fates to be free from K. D’s control. She has shown that she cannot be entrusted with it.
This trail took place over 17 days, so it would seem this trial was not taken lightly. It would also appear there were more than a few child advocates involved in this case.
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2009/2009canlii943/2009canlii943.html
I can only say it is about time this form of child abuse has been dealt with!
What is really susprsing there was a Case where a father had custody of a child in Ontario, and he was stripped of custody for alienating his son. Susprisingly enough Parental alienation syndrom was also used in this particular case as well. I find is sad how, when a child/ren is removed from a mothers care it's horrendous, yet when it's a child removed from a fathers care he had to of done something so awful it was necessary for the child/ren to removed from his care. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/28/2009 4:50:40 AM | It is remarkable that A. L. has not given-in to the Respondent’s persistence in keeping his children from him over the last fourteen years and simply gone on with his life without the children as, no doubt, many other parents in the same situation would have and, indeed, have done. It is now time for his and the children’s fates to be free from K. D’s control. She has shown that she cannot be entrusted with it.
I find is sad how, when a child/ren is removed from a mothers care it's horrendous, yet when it's a child removed from a fathers care he had to of done something so awful it was necessary for the child/ren to removed from his care.
Yeah, I know there are cases where the opposite holds true, but it's a sad when justice for children is put on hold until a father is willing to invest likely somewhere between $100,000 and quarter million dollars to buy it. As the judge said, "many other parents in the same situation would have (given-in) and, indeed, have done." Of course they have, because if it takes 10 years to get the courts to do something about something this serious, by the time they'll do anything about people who may not quite be that whacked out, the children will be adults so custody is no longer an issue. For that matter, if this guy's kids were 8 or older when this all started, they too would have been adults before anything was done.
And not everyone has the hundreds of thousands of dollars, many would go bankrupt years before they can buy justice for their children. At that point, their children still end up in the same position they were but now everybody has a lot less money... except the lawyers. I wonder how much this sort of thing would happen if lawyers had to wait until matters were resolved before they got paid. Think it would still drag on for 10 years? | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/28/2009 8:42:50 AM | The fact is, anyone who does not have money, will not have thier parental rights if they need to fight for them. It is a sad state of affairs.
I know a few couples where the father was the primary care giver during the marriage, the wife worked in the executive suits and worked over 10 hours a day, while dad was able to pick up the kids from daycare/school, get them fed and bathed and ready for school the next morning, everyday...and yet Dad was still denied full custody. The kids are passed from school to after school care, instead of being with thier Dad...except for every second weekend...because it was deemed that Mom is the better parent? And Dad doesnt have thousands of dollars to fight.
Hopefully more cases like this will be ground breaking enough to make a few high up officials take notice. Being female does not automatically mean you are better suited than a male for full time custody. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/28/2009 4:00:10 PM |
I think that this case raises a bigger issue. Why does the Father not get equal consideration in a court case as the Mother? This is a gross example of discrimination where Fathers only get considered for custody if the Mother is proved beyond any doubt to be completely unstable. Court Battles are so expensive in family court, where the money could be better spent on the kids.
I fully agree that joint custody is the best solution for the children, if possible, and, if not, that the parent who is in the best interest of the child gets custody regardless of that person's gender. I know men who have their children half-time and applaud their effort and dedication. It's about time men are getting some rights to their children! I wish more parents of both genders would put aside their own emotions and do what's best for the kids.
faith,hope,love: Rather than telling the children that you are not with Daddy because he beat the crap out you, can't you just tell them that you don't love Daddy (how could you love someone who's smacking your or making you feel subhuman) and that you felt it was best for you and the children if you and Daddy don't live together anymore.
All truth, but not giving details that are inappropriate or unhelpful for the children.
Nutt | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/29/2009 9:03:46 AM | @ChocolateNutt,
I always like reading your posts. And yes, up until now the standard line here has been, "Sometimes mommies and daddies can't live together, and everyone is happier when they live apart." My kids are both little - under 10. They're starting to press with the "But whyyyy..." questions now, because they see the pictures of their dad and me when we looked happy together, then they wonder why there are no more pictures of me in the family albums dating from after the birth of our second daughter. (One reason was the bruises, the other reason was that I wanted to disappear from the face of the planet.)
Anyway, I can't swear I'll never reveal anything about our past, but I'm doing my best to avoid rocking their worlds. I've gotten some really good advice here. Thanks again. | |
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| Mother loses custody for alienating kids from their father
Posted: 1/31/2009 4:14:03 AM | When K. D. questioned A. L. at the opening of the trial, she was self-represented. comment from pg125 in the ruling.
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2009/2009canlii943/2009canlii943.pdf
The minute I read that one sentance...combined with the other finacial factors that were in favour of the Father...I had some serious questions...as I am sure alot of others had.
Tealwood, I am sorry you see my objections as man hating and bias or jaded regarding this subject in particular. I don't think I ever have taken sides in this case in particular...however I did and still do have alot of questions about the circumstances.
For a parent who was quite familiar with paying for and on occassion personally drafting 14A and 14B affidavits and filing various motions in the family court, I noticed that this Judge took this applicants affidavit as the gospel truth.She even went so far as to include the complete (affidavit) document in her ruling and almost solely based her decisions on a document a high priced lawyer churned out on behalf of the applicant (father) in her decisions in the written court order.
Anyone who has had a lawyer bill them, knows that it costs money to create the picture of being the innocent party. An experienced lawyer would have a field day with a parent who was representing themselves...My intention was only to point out there are more sides to this story than the quotes and the celebrated opinions that the Father's groups are perpetuating.
This is no where near a victory or landmark judgement as some groups feel it is....and until all of the facts and history about this case, including the release of all the respondents(mother's) affidavits made in defence of the origional motion, this ruling will be a hot topic until the appeal comes back to court.
~And Lizzie...i would be equally supportive where any father lost his custodial position for doing the same thing...and it is also supposedly occurring ...and i can easily understand it occurring and I find disgusting any person who could do such a thing...and find more disgusting anyone who refuses to accept it is a situation that occurs and marvel at how anyone could be so blind..unless???in truth it hits a little to close to home? ~Tealwood~
^^^Would it make you feel better to know I constantly fight with my ex?
Sorry to disapoint ya...not the case these days..I must have worn him down!!
I find it disgusting that any parent would use children as pawns or deny another parent access because of feelings of bitterness and resentment.
I don't agree with what I have read the mother has done in this case. I think she should be ashamed of herself for behaving so badly in front of her children.
I am also not sold on the Dad playing the part of the innocent victim in this situation either.
Be honest, if you paid over 50,000 for a lawyer you would expect them to manipulate and twist all of the facts to benefit your case wouldn't you?..
Before you jump all over me with your man hating theories...try and read what I posted...The only ones who are suffering right now are those three kids caught in the middle of this huge drama. How is that "fair" or what "justice" does that serve? | |
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