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 Author Thread: One way To get Married
 akimmbo

Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 48
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Many ways To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 4:46:20 AM

,recently a film came out called the 'duchess', and shows that love had very little to do with marriage in european culture


very true, good points wantotravel...
what's Love got to do...got to do wit it....hahaha

Well, in the good ol' U.S of A.....this is how it's done...you whine , wheedle, and strip away pieces of each others' flesh., one centimeter at a time....down to the bone with guilt tripping and sub-aural Control mechanistics. Isn't this a better way...to Love?

I mean..look at all of the Happy People here??

Oh K....need more coffee....sorry.........it's the 'other guy' talking now...

Kimbo*********************
 want to travel

Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 49
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Many ways To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 5:05:35 AM
i am in no way making the point that arranged marriages are good, better, but my point is it is generally the way its done in most of the world, some people say it is slavery, this is false, these are marriages, not prostitution , the only difference is the roles of the sexes are much more defined, and generally much more conservative
 MY OH MY

Joined: 10/11/2007
Msg: 50
Many ways To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 5:07:50 AM
You want to give me a link to any article that states or clearly show that the people marrying are under 18?
 akimmbo

Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 51
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Posted: 2/4/2009 5:29:24 AM
^^yes, Em, in the U.S. it is not legal, and not comprehensible....we know that.
and, wantotravel....of course, no one can, or should judge right or wrong...because it's apparently impossible for many people to just imagine.....that it might be a peaceful exchange in another culture.

Once they all move to the good ol' U.S., then, yes, it's fair game to arrest them, demoralize them..and , hey, lock them up if necessary.
I think what I'm sayin is violence begets violence....
and people will always feel supreme in this country
it's part of the sad pulse of it all....the entitlement factor

just random thoughts...
....I want to be Politically Correct, i do I do...I really really do....but I can't help spouting off me grandes freakin' boca

third cup...feelin' better now
k
 **Tee**

Joined: 3/11/2008
Msg: 52
One way To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 5:53:44 AM
Initially when I first posted, I really did think it was a joke, hence my smartass comment. But after reading Devils Daughter's post, I decided I wanted to look into customs such as this and understand the ways of the people from the village of Oaxaca, which is where this girls family is from.
I found an article written about a woman from there, that is trying to make some changes..Its a little long, but I did highlight a paragraph that pertains to this thread..


SANTA MARIA QUIEGOLANI, Mexico - Women in this Indian village high in the pine-clad mountains of Oaxaca rise each morning at 4 a.m. to gather firewood, grind corn, prepare the day's food, care for the children and clean the house.
But they aren't allowed to vote in local elections, because — the men say — they don't do enough work.
It was here, in a village that has struggled for centuries to preserve its Zapotec traditions, that Eufrosina Cruz, 27, decided to become the first woman to run for mayor — despite the fact that women aren't allowed to attend town assemblies, much less run for office.
The all-male town board tore up ballots cast in her favor in the Nov. 4 election, arguing that as a woman, she wasn't a "citizen" of the town. "That is the custom here, that only the citizens vote, not the women," said Valeriano Lopez, the town's deputy mayor.
Rather than give up, Cruz has launched the first serious, national-level challenge to traditional Indian forms of government, known as "use and customs," which were given full legal status in Mexico six years ago in response to Indian rights movements sweeping across Latin America.
"For me, it's more like 'abuse and customs,'" Cruz said as she submitted her complaint in December to the National Human Rights Commission. "I am demanding that we, the women of the mountains, have the right to decide our lives, to vote and run for office, because the constitution says we have these rights."
Lopez acknowledged that votes for Cruz were nullified, but claims they added up to only 8 ballots of about 100 cast in this largely unpaved village of about 1,500 people.
Cruz says she was winning — and wants the election to be annulled and held again, this time with women voting.
But the male leaders are refusing to budge. "We live differently here, senor, than people in the city. Here, women are dedicated to their homes, and men work the fields," Apolonio Mendoza, the secretary of the all-male town council, told a visiting reporter.
Cruz has received some support from older men, who by village law lose their political rights when they turn 60. Some younger men also say the system must change and give women more rights.
At a recent meeting of several dozen Cruz supporters, most of them voteless, women in traditional gray shawls recalled being turned down for government aid programs because they weren't accompanied by a man.
Martina Cruz Moreno, 19, said that when her widowed mother sought government-provided building materials to improve her dirt-floor, tin-roofed wooden home, village authorities told her, "Go get yourself a husband."
As a woman, Eufrosina Cruz is not only barred from being mayor, but from participating in the "community labor" that qualifies male villagers as "citizens." Those tasks include repairing roads, herding cattle, cleaning streets and raising crops.
"I'd like to see the men here make tortillas, just for one day, and then tell me that's not work," said Cruz, describing the hours-long process of cleaning, soaking, cooking and milling the corn, shaping the flour into flat disks, and collecting the firewood to heat the clay and brick hearths on which most women cook.
During all-important village festivals, women are expected to cook for all the male guests. But instead of joining them at the table, Cruz says, they are relegated to straw mats on the floor. Clothes are washed by hand, and while most homes have some form of running water, it's often only a single spigot.
Cruz decided to escape that life after she saw her 12-year-old sister given to an older man in a marriage arranged by her father. The sister had her first child at 13, and has since borne seven more.
Cruz was 11 and "I didn't even know what a bus was then."
She traveled to the nearest city to enroll in school, live with relatives and support herself through odd jobs, eventually graduating from college with a degree in accounting.
She is single, and in a village culture where most women wear skirts, she wears pants. Because her village has no formal jobs for women, she works as a school director in a nearby town, and returns to Quiegolani most weekends. That, authorities say, disqualified her from running for mayor because she wasn't a full-time resident. But the man who won the race also works outside the town, and there are questions about how much time he actually spends here.
Cruz views the residency issue as a pretext, noting that authorities have also banned female candidates and anybody with a college degree from running. She said she has followed the use and custom rules as much as she was allowed to, carefully fulfilling lower-level duties that function as a means of testing people's devotion to their village. For four years, she "carried the Virgin" in a religious procession through the town, and has helped fund or organize other festivities.
Cruz figured her case for annulling the elections was solid — after all, Mexico's constitution guarantees both men and women the right to vote. She went first to the Oaxaca state electoral council, then to the state congress. After both upheld the election, she took her fight to the commission in Mexico City.
"I am not asking anything for myself. I am asking on behalf of Indian women, so that never again will the laws allow political segregation," Cruz wrote to the commissioners, who may take months to investigate the case, and who could recommend that state authorities protect women's rights to vote or hold office. She says she'll go higher, to federal electoral authorities, if necessary.
In Mexico, many local governance rules date to before the Spanish conquest and weren't given national legal recognition until a 2001 Indian rights reform was enacted in the wake of the Zapatista rebel uprising in Chiapas.
The law states that Indian townships may "apply their own normative systems ... as long as they obey the general principles of the Constitution and respect the rights of individuals, human rights, and particularly the dignity and well-being of women."
Despite this specific protection, about a fourth of the Indian villages operating under the law don't let women vote, putting human rights groups in a dilemma: Most actively supported recognition for Indian governance systems, and few have therefore taken up the women's cause.
Cruz now travels alone from one government office to another, always carrying an armful of calla lilies. "This flower grows a lot in the village. Even though we don't water or care for it much, it flowers," she explained. "It is a symbol for us Indian women."
"The congress upheld the vote out of sheer laziness, to avoid stirring up the village or causing a conflict there," said Rep. Perla Woolrich, a Oaxaca state legislator who supported Cruz's cause. "In the past, use and customs represented something positive, but by now it violates people's constitutional rights. Use and customs have to reviewed, and those practices that violate rights have to be thrown out."
Cruz says she isn't against all customs in her village. She prefers its bipartisanship to political party rivalry because it encourages close-knit Indian communities to stick together and underpins their survival.
"There are really beautiful things in use and customs, if they are applied as they should be," she said.
"Up there in the mountains, unfortunately, nobody listens to us," she says. "If nothing is done, we'll go on the same way for another century in Quiegolani."


Apparently, a village that has never moved forward, and changed their neandrathal ways. Had I read that maybe this was their way of life, and it was accepted by the women involved, who am I to say that its wrong?
But that isn't what I gathered from the article..Very sad indeed.
 The Devils Daughter

Joined: 12/27/2008
Msg: 53
Many ways To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 7:15:17 AM

i am in no way making the point that arranged marriages are good, better, but my point is it is generally the way its done in most of the world, some people say it is slavery, this is false, these are marriages, not prostitution , the only difference is the roles of the sexes are much more defined, and generally much more conservative


I'd like to strongly disagree with this assertion on arranged marriages.
I do some work with women from the indian subcontinent. i cannot, for reasons of safety for these women, go into what i sometimes do, in detail, suffice to say, that the majority of cases Ive worked with, the marriages arranged were totally against the wishes of the women that were forced into these marriages. if they refused, they were held prisoner by their own families, intimidated, and beaten, until they gave in, and consented. there are 'honour killings' in britain, where families and communities have hunted down runnaway brides and killed them in the most horrific ways. the average age of girls being forcibly married is 14 or 15,.. I have come across some as young as 11 or 12. My own family is multicultural,.. and i have a foot in both camps, so to speak.
I advise women as to where safe houses can be found, and other organisations which will help them to establish different identities in different parts of the country. believe me, this IS slavery, and not just slavery, its more sinister even than that, its complete and total control over young females by family, and wider community. I find it hard to take any male person seriously, who thinks arranged marriage is simply a more defined and formal and traditional way of living. its legalised rape, is what it is.
pity the children born into such a union, who see the non person that is their mother, being raped, beaten and humiliated on an almost daily basis.

To gwendolyn.
You seem very concerned that my profile and my actions do not meet up. Do you always take things so literally? I am not here to date, nor to mislead anyone as regards my persona.
I chose my profile name, for humorous reasons that only I would understand. i see no big deal in having a totally dichotmous profile name,.. and the things i write in my posts.
really, its not a big deal, or i dont see it as such anyway.
To Akimmbo.
I do understand your point about feeling helpless. I do, a lot of the time. I try to do what I can in small ways,.. but I'll never agree with the thought that some things can be ignored, because they're cultural.
A lot of people are bring up past atrocities commited by the Western world, and as much as I abhor this as well, I really do not see, how being wrong then,.. stops anyone from expressing an opinion now,.. on what they feel to be wrong., or even trying to change whats wrong now.
Slavery is alive and well throughout the world... its called arranged marriage.
Its committed by many races, many cultures... and its still damn wrong.
TDD
 Smart Lass

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 54
Many ways To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 7:19:11 AM
Whether you say this is a cultural difference or feel that this is the good ol' self righteous and indignant U.S. to bring charges against a person for doing something that is acceptable and actually normal to them , within their culture. It is human trafficking. Regardless of where it is taking place and within what culture it is taking place. It is wrong. There is no argument that could ever justify this kind of behavior, anywhere for anyone.

I fully support and applaud DD's statement of As for not 'interfering' in others culture,.. well, theres another word for that.. moral cowardice.

By the way, for those of you less informed on this topic, this happens to be going on in the United States as well, where you live, where you call home, within your culture, for those of you who think this is none of our business.

Comparing these atrocities to the amount of a money a CEO might spend on a wedding is a ludicrous comparison. I don't know about you, but I have never been to a wedding where anyone has been raped, beaten, tortured and kept against their will while having unspeakable acts committed against them. If you have, you folks sure have some...ahem...interesting friends and family.


Change starts with one person. However, that person must be brave enough and courageous enough to actually care about his fellow man or woman, regardless of where they are in the world. But that one person CAN make a change.

I shake my head at some of the statements in this thread. When did people become so self-absorbed and lazy that they can longer even be bothered to help their fellow man, and to some of you earlier posters have the gall to make a joke of it I say this, there is a school of thought that believes when people just stand by while a crime is committed and do nothing to stop it, it makes them just as guilty as the criminal who committed the crime. Food for thought.

For those of you who don't feel so helpless and would actually like to help there are several organizations that work to fight Human Trafficking globally. Google the topic of Human Trafficking, numerous organizations will come up and if you would like more information, please message me privately. There are many ways to help, either through financial donations or by volunteering your time.


One last note, for those you who speak out against the United States, while we have made mistakes like every country has, this is still a pretty good place to live and with this past election we have seen just how strong the American People are and if we all did just one small thing to help our fellow man worldwide, imagine the change we could make worldwide.
 OutMind

Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 55
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Many ways To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 8:48:34 AM

One last note, for those you who speak out against the United States, while we have made mistakes like every country has, this is still a pretty good place to live and with this past election we have seen just how strong the American People are and if we all did just one small thing to help our fellow man worldwide, imagine the change we could make worldwide.


I got all teary reading this.


Seriously. Good stuff, Smart Lass.
 MikeM1968

Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 56
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Posted: 2/4/2009 9:15:49 AM
Who said this was "news"? It's been going on like this for thousands of years. Pimps-up, Hoes down! It's just business. The dumb ones get sold, while someone else keeps a cut or the whole thing. The women who sell their services cheap are just temporary free agents. The extremely smart ones get married so everything's in their name!!

Just read some of the stuff in the Bible, been like this since dirt was created.

Either way --(wife or hooker)-- men pay.

that is all

Mike
 luvdane

Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 57
One way To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 9:39:41 AM
According to the cops, the total cost was $16,000, one hundred cases of
beer and several cases of meat...The bride price has become controversial in Mexico, as a violation of women's rights.

LOL ... the bride price constitutes a violation of women's rights?

Is it so because the aggregate price of the beer and meat amounts to only $16,000? Or is it because the bride price was payable not in cash, but only in chattel, namely beer and meat?

Maybe it is wrong for people to equate a living breathing beautiful teenage girl with only $16,000 worth of dead meat and water containing alcohol along with other additives. But the facts in question seem to suggest that it might have been okay if the bride price was much higher! And the bride's age was NOT an issue?... LOL...
 MY OH MY

Joined: 10/11/2007
Msg: 58
Many ways To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 9:54:31 AM
No, men don't always pay and women don't always pay. Thank goodness I kept my retirement, my car, all of my belongings and my house when I got my divorce. I am not paying alimony which my ex asked for too.

Just because a culture practices something doesn't make it right, this is why the authorities took all those children from the ex Mormon group. The authorities erred by being so rash, but I think it sent a message. Children are children and if anyone sees or hears about anyone being forced to marry someone, it needs to be reported. Cultures that don't allow all to be educated are normally the ones that practice such atrocities. Education helps freedom.

In some Native American groups the women were the leaders, not the men. The women chose their husband. There is no blanket statement for all Native Americans or all third world cultures. Some sects have horrible practices and do their best to keep these things hidden.

I ask for sources, I don't believe things written without proof. I have read history books with incorrect accounts of history. I have read newspaper articles with incorrect "facts."

There is no beauty in a child being forced into marriage and what follows. Fear is not beautiful and that is how these sects control the women and children.

Personally I take tons of things literally.
 akimmbo

Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 59
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Posted: 2/4/2009 10:42:45 AM
There is no beauty in molestation and coercion and fear, this is true...em
Then, I don't know where the line is between making a difference and respecting Culture.

I knew, Devils Daughter, that you must be very kind and sensitive and real, working on something around this, because of your reaction, good for you. I understand the difference between being involved vs. the armchair prophets just giving lip service out there.

I will venture to Nicaragua and Brazil next year....on invitation , once again, to 'observe' and photograph cultural practices. I have been there before, in the Jungles...
In life, in general, I just want the experience...to see..to observe..and to learn..
So far of what I have seen
I am not sure we need to change anything...but lessons await.

Kimbo***********************************************


 southernlady1840

Joined: 4/30/2008
Msg: 60
One way To get Married
Posted: 2/4/2009 11:18:10 AM
Definitely not me... I guess some people do but i personally would like to know who it is I am marrying... after all I am the one who has to deal with them not someone else... wouldnt this be the same as hiring a handyman to fix thingsaround the house and a giggelo to well.... you know... if thats the case then i would stick with the handyman and giggelo over an arranged and bought marriage... at least i would have some free time to myself and only one to take care of...
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