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Posted: 2/9/2009 1:29:05 PM | Sequoyah61 made some very good points, if I may try and make a couple more…
Why do so many women feel that dating must culminate at some point in front of an Altar or JP ?
Especially when all the statistics for marriage, and even more so for second and third marriages with blended families are against them lasting.
In this situation we have a woman that loves a man, & a man that loves a woman. ( I assume )
Life, being what it is sometimes throws us a curve ball, in this case the woman, who now finds herself MOM 24/7, 365, with no time to see the man she loves, so she decides the solution is to present the man she loves & who loves her with an ultimatum. Marry me or else !!!
Now we do not know the man’s feelings on marriage at this point in his life, or at any future time for that matter, but what we do have is 3 pages of people telling the OP to kick him to the curb if after 3 years of dating he is isn’t willing to meet her demands and ultimatums.
Now the man, like the woman is a divorced parent with children still at home (CP or NCP, not known) also like the woman we can assume he has a home where he and his children are comfortable, I wonder if either of their homes are large enough for this “Brady Bunch” situation she now desires, excuse me, I mean demands.
If Not …
This means one or both of them must sell the home they and their children are comfortable and secure in, hmmm, is this such a good idea in these economic times ? and who shall risk themselves and their children ending up homeless should the marriage fail ? hmmm, again I wonder ????
Now the above is just one reason if I was the man ( and I have been presented with this exact ultimatum ) I would have to simply say, well I’m sorry you feel this way, goodbye, good luck, oh and have a nice life. ( after all my child and HIS well being comes first )
She will then find herself still Mom 24/7, 365, with no man, & no time to meet one.
I am not trying to be harsh or mean either, but I have to ask, Is that really such a good alternative ???? I wonder ????
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Posted: 2/9/2009 1:44:23 PM | I still say to propose to him.
Carolann, if I was the guy in this situation, I would drive the 15 minutes to hang with you while the baseball practice or ballet lesson was going on. I am sure the child not in the activity would be with you and his child with him.....great.....have some ice cream out.
Or get them their own table and you guys get another table, for some quiet talking time.
Or, better yet, drop all three off to a movie some evening!
I would definitely be there three times a week even if the kids were there.
Of course, it isn't paradise for romance, but it is for feeling like a couple.
I really hope you get this ironed out, because you deserve it.
Remember, your 14 year old will be developing towards adulthood by leaps and bounds starting about now. | |
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Posted: 2/9/2009 1:45:58 PM | Oh, Carolann, that's not necessarily so. I am positive there is someone who will accept your children and is not commitment-phobic. You are too smart, attractive, and just plain nice to spend the next 8 years being someone's FB! Besides, it doesn't sound like that is making you feel very good about yourself anyway.
Sometimes the hardest part is in defining what you want. If you got nothing more out of this relationship, at least you know now that you want to be married again. I am sure there are other things you have learned about yourself and these are all steps in the right direction. Maybe that's why he came into your life. Now that he's served his purpose, thank him for the memories and get on with it!
Let your inner beauty shine and go in peace! | |
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Posted: 2/9/2009 1:55:24 PM | OP,
i completely understand what you are saying about not having someone in your room/bed/etc with children involved.....i not only understand it, i applaud it....i think you are a great mom to draw this line, and frankly, it's rather a shame more people don't do the same
i don't think anyone is attacking that part of what you are saying........i don;'t think anyone is saying "shack up with the guy" or "throw a DVD in for the kids while you go have a quickie"........i think most people appreciate that part of the problem; and i not only get it, i really respect you for it
i think OP, what some people are saying is that the answer may NOT be marriage; it may be, as others have suggested, that your guy joins you for some other moments throughout the week, and same with you and his child/ren
if either of you is not ready for marriage, entering into that as a solution to this problem may just create another problem later
i do think this will be an issue for you no matter who you are seeing; wouldn't you rather be patient (provided he is willing to do the same) and have what time together you can manage now, rather than be missing him, and when your kids are grown, you are wishing he was still there?
i know this may seem to go a bit against what i said earlier.....but i think there are many ways to look at it
 for setting a great example for your kids! | |
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Posted: 2/9/2009 2:47:42 PM | Sheesh woman! Haven't you married him by now???
Hop to it now!
Nike said it best.......... | |
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Posted: 2/9/2009 3:43:21 PM | Now we do not know the man’s feelings on marriage at this point in his life, or at any future time for that matter, but what we do have is 3 pages of people telling the OP to kick him to the curb if after 3 years of dating he is isn’t willing to meet her demands and ultimatums.
From this thread many don't know that Carolann did discuss marriage with this man not too long ago and his reaction was not positive. Therefore, I'm assuming she knows he's not ready for such a major life transition, both of them not divorced a long time with busy lives and children. They have discussed this to some degree. Carolann's question is will he EVER be ready and how long is reasonable to "wait."
Carolann, maybe he just doesn't know how he'll feel in 1 or 2 more years and it's just a gamble, but he's not ready now, and you're not happy now. You know you're in love with him and want more. Carolann, I feel your choices are either find a way to spend more time together, accept things as they are, or end it. There's really no other choice that I can see.  Or, you can broach the marriage now subject again but this time be prepared to do something if it's not the answer you want. I feel for you, I really do. It's tough being a single mom and working, I know, and I miss having that companionship, friendship and support as well. I wish you only the best. | |
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Posted: 2/9/2009 4:46:02 PM | At what point do you draw the line? When you start to say things like this!
“I don’t want to be alone every night.”
“I now know I am lonely.”
“I miss the companionship of a marriage.”
“One night every 2-3 weeks for a few hours is not enough”!
Those, my dear are called confirmations! That means you already know the answer and you’re refusing to verify it! So ... for now you are willing to sit and wait and wait and wait! You have allowed yourself to settle into his routine and made the career, the kids and all the little excuses one likes to make, in order to justify “putting off” a conclusion to either move forward or walk away.
I know love waits... but not forever! | |
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Posted: 2/9/2009 8:57:02 PM | so she decides the solution is to present the man she loves & who loves her with an ultimatum. Marry me or else !!!
As the poster above pointed out, that was not the issue.
I know how it felt...to have had that kind of connection and love for him and knowing that what I wanted to build on, was not what he wanted.
I can look back now and see that as good as I thought I knew him, I didn't really.
How could I?
It would be a totally different situation if BOTH of you were planning a future together.
The effort would be effortless.
Sometimes I think we take what we do know and romanticize the way we think it would be.
That kinda makes us ready for something more permanent, when really if we did start spending a lot more time together, we'd still need a good year to see if the relationship would be a good one. You gotta experience normal day-to-day stuff together.
I love that saying that goes:
"The right one for you can't come into your life, until the wrong one gets out of the way..."
You never know, you might meet someone new who is so right, that a relationship would not be hard at all. Rather it would fit amazingly?
Like one said earlier, It's a gamble. It hurt me to lose what I gave up a few months ago...but I also knew that I did not want to be anybodies temporary anything!
Good luck girl....hope your thread is helping you to sort this stuff out.
Only you know deep down what to do.
I wish you courage! | |
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Posted: 2/9/2009 9:18:59 PM |
Why do so many women feel that dating must culminate at some point in front of an Altar or JP ? There is a thread on here about why women over 50 don't want to get married. There are women that are over 40 that feel exactly the same way. Perhaps younger may have more of a desire, I don't know.
I see the economy. I see that my bf couldn't quit his job and find one in my area, OP can your bf? My bf has not been in my home either. He has met 2 out of 3 of my kids. But, I am only on month 4. I am happy the way my relationship is. OP you clearly state you aren't. You must talk to him again and then stick to your guns, whatever you say (marry me or it is over), to be happy. Only you can make you happy. | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 12:07:42 AM | | If your needs aren't being met and you're not happy...a relationship like that can't last for very long...well it doesn't for me...I'm sure you know what type of situation has made you happy in the past...so don't settle for less...but sure discuss with him how your feeling and see if he's willing to make changes...if not...then you know what you have to do...life's too short to be with the wrong person or with someone who doesn't or isn't willing to make you happy. | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 12:59:48 PM | Carolann,
You're in a tough situation, no doubt. It's not easy for a lot of people, but it sounds like you want marriage because you're incomplete without it. If you haven't had time to fruitfully date, then you aren't ready to marry him. Marriage is not a solution for lonliness.
My moral code or whatever you want to call it is my own.
Nobody's asking you to boink a guy in the bedroom while your kids watch tv. So, it's not a moral issue there. It's better described as your comfort zone. You asked for input -- what "is my own" is the root of the problem, I believe.
You can have the guy spend the day with you and not spend the night. You can get babysitters and have a night out on the town, and have intimate and not intimate situations. He lives 15 mins away, but he doesn't have his kids fulltime, either.
Bottom line -- you want to get married. It's a void you want filled. I think you know you -could- adjust things and do things to make yourself more datable, because others do it. It's not always easy, plans are cancelled here and there, but I don't think that's it's about. You don't want to change your comfort zone on handling things -- you just want marriage to resolve lonliness, to someone you haven't been able to adequately date. | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 3:09:00 PM |
The root of the problem is, I have a hard time dealing with the fact that this is how my life could be for another 8 years or until my youngest leaves for college. I want a partner in that life 24/7 not once every few weeks. So your belief is I either change my ideals, get used to being someone's FB or be alone.
carolann...you are one damn smart woman. You know the answer...even if you don't want to accept it. It's in the quote above.
In general, men (lol...not ALL) are quite complacent when they are "well-fed" and not "hungry".
This man is the same man that you wondered about a few months ago. I think he is happy with the status quo. If he wanted more, in his life, he wouldn't be putting up with a woman who is so "busy"...so "unavailable". Just like a few women on here will pick "unavailable" men constantly because they have other issues that they need closure on....or ....they have "intimacy" issues.
My man was in a few of those ( they have all sorts of names and descriptions) for over 15 years. He got used to this kind of relationship with women and pushed at me to fall into one with him. I refused. I told him point blank what I expected in my relationships with men, my boundaries, my values and stuck to them. I said if he didn't like it, there was always someone else out there to accomodate him. It intrigued him.
Now we are planning a wedding this coming fall.
If a man wants you totally, you and your kids are a package.
I feel that 2-3 years is more than ample time for him to have made the move towards a permanent tie. But...then...you know that....don't you?
I hope you can find the answer within yourself for what is best for you and your children.
A note: My kids who are 30 and 32 thank me for NOT dragging strange men home on an irregular basis.
There are many studies out there that show it has disturbing effects to kids when their parent...especially mothers are playing "musical beds" in front of them in their formative years. Especially boys who have witnessed promiscuous mothers.
It's not worth it.
Good luck...and I really recommend that you "talk" to him about your points on here and how you really feel about making a permanent home together with him. Communication is key. That is how you build trust. That is real intimacy. | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 4:46:14 PM | Marriage is so tricky at this point in our lives, so that may not be the whole issue. There are really two sides to this story and marriage may not be the answer. First after some time there should be a strong link between your lives. Even when separated, there should be a desire to share everything. Yes, preserve your own life and don't change but don't hide either.
In a good relationship the time is found the schedules are meshed. If that can't be done including the compromises then there is no marriage material to begin with. This does not mean changing yourself, it means changes in your life to make yourself do things in a way that works for the relationship. On here most of us are single parents, when we got to be that way, we made changes to preserve and protect the relationships with our children. If you want a husband and the man wants a wife you both need to go through that same work to make it happen.
A few things to think about:
Is he your first thought in the morning and last thought of the night? And you his?
Are your dates just escapes from your current life bring much needed joy but somewhat superficial?
Are you both working hard to make this relationship work?
Can you talk about a future together? On the other side, is it talked about too much, keeping one or the other away?
Are you both just meeting for sex?
Do you love each other or are you both just filling the void of needing a relationship?
Is he your best friend? Are you his?
Here is the harder ones:
If you get a feeling that something is wrong when you are distant and out of touch, do you stop everything to make sure he is alright? And does he do the same for you?
Hypothetically, if you were in a car wreck or other accident alone would you reach out for his help know he will know to come or pray that he comes.
Do you feel safe, complete and confident with him around? Do you make each other better just by sharing lives?
Finally, I do say once in a while is not enough. Love is not hit and run. Watch the movie fireproof together.
Live, laugh, love. Life is good. | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 4:49:48 PM | I think that marriage is an institution that shouldn't be entered into lightly. I think that commitment can be obtained without marriage, as well.
Perhaps opening a line of communication about commitment can help your situation. | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 5:25:03 PM | My 2 cents. I have read some follow up threads and I agree that CarolAnn is a very smart woman. I am not sure why to question the instutution of marrige and assume that the relationship can be very lovely and commited without marrige if the OP indicated clearly that marrige it is what she desires.
Indeed it unclear for me why many assume taht OP needs to have a talk with this man and be open and honest. She already has done it and he said "No" (at least for now).
I would guess that the key problem here is not a private time together and how much of this time but why he hasn't produced a full level of commitment that OP desires. That would bother me the most. Of course, in case of marrige or move in together if Op finds it acceptable that problem would be solved.
Carol, you need to realisticly assess the situation and perhaps see is it possible that he actually would produce whole 9 yards in the immediate future? Are there specific reasons that hold him back and can those reasons be fixable.
You deserve more than FWB or casual stuff. You have to deside what will hurt you more quitting cold turkey or allow him 2-3 times per months when you know clearly what you want.
My 2 c... Cold turkey is taugh in the beginning but it can get better over a course of time for YOU. 2-3 times per month looks like a better option for immediate future but frustration still will be escalating. | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 5:38:56 PM | Carolann....it's tearing you up. Something's got to give somewhere before you have a total meltdown.
It's not your lack of a support system, either...i've been at a similar place to where you are. Even if you had that support system you wouldn't want to shuffle the kids around.
I suppose after the Thanksgiving shocker you and he talked...and you've thought a lot about where you both are in your association since then. But maybe you need another talk. Especially if you feel the relationship has downgraded to a FB set up. That may or may not be true to him...but it doesn't suit your self esteem to feel it might be so.
oh! I'm glad I ran into this forum...it gives me inspiration to stay away from my own uneven relationship temptation! | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 5:56:51 PM | | At what point...................the month you inked your post. You do not see him that often - one night every 2-3 weeks and for a few hours - that is tough. I would just ask him simply and light heartily (not confrontationally) where he thinks things are going and his feedback will help you either hang in or eventually move on. Also it is not just about the two of you as kids lives will be changed, houses sold, and other combo agreements need solving. These could all be very positive things, but the logistics of it all can be rather daunting. Rather then face these opportunities people often just take the safe route and do nothing. You both need to see the mutual benefit of commingling your families. Love is there so that is a start. Good luck!! | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 7:15:27 PM | Carolann, I think you should go back and read your post #48,64,74 and 78. I think it's obvious this isn't his problem...it's your problem.
Then re-read your initial post. Sounds to me you're expecting him to make all the sacrifices. AND, I don't wish to sound harsh either. | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 8:00:33 PM | CarolAnn // I have agonized over responding to this post because of how to reply exactly.
I remember sharing on here abut dating a man long distance fotr over a year. It fell apart because I could not moive to Canada because of kids, job and owning a house/the economy. I loved him very much and despite the distance - we saw each other eveery week for two to three days at a time.
Your response to me was - he got sick of waiting for you to move and so.....
My point is this -- sometimes love is not enough. I still miss him - however just because my son is in college, and my two daughters are older and one is getting married in May - I am a mother - and I could not just abandon my family to miove to another country.
I did exactly that in my 20s and came to the US and have spent 20 yrs here - I wouldn t change my children for anything - but I would change having parents and siblings on another continent!! 24 hours of travel and support system is very hard.
I have learned that sometimes love is not enough - sad though it is - sometimes it is just not meant to be.
We can all feel for you and share our experience - but only you know in your heart what yo are willing to do and compromise to continue this. I believe in a lot of ways you have answered your own question on both threads. We all have the little voice telling us what to do - but in the heat of love - we so want to change the reality.
Z | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 8:08:10 PM | CarolAnn,
You do not have a problem, your BF is a dork - sorry - it's true. Any person that would treat you like a FB is a dork, not a man. A real man will cherish you and be mature enough to realize that loving a woman, really loving a woman is more than boinking every so often. It is the emotional, and physical joining together that transforms our relationships into beauty for both men and women. We've all been there before - it's going to be hard to get back there - but we know it's worth it.
You are not wrong to feel the way you do. If he truely loved you, he would move heaven and earth to be by your side, and vice versa.
I have heard it said that if a man really loves you nothing can keep him away. If he doesn't, nothing can make him stay.
Peace - no pain, no gain. Crazy is continuing to do the same thing and expect a different resut! Good luck | |
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Posted: 2/10/2009 8:37:00 PM | Carolann, maybe he just doesn't know how he'll feel in 1 or 2 more years and it's just a gamble, but he's not ready now, and you're not happy now. You know you're in love with him and want more. Carolann, I feel your choices are either find a way to spend more time together, accept things as they are, or end it. There's really no other choice that I can see. Or, you can broach the marriage now subject again but this time be prepared to do something if it's not the answer you want. I feel for you, I really do. It's tough being a single mom and working, I know, and I miss having that companionship, friendship and support as well. I wish you only the best.
I feel pretty much the same as Me Leona on this one Carolann. With all you went through recently with your beau, and how these new developments are affecting your relationship, you really seem to be unsettled about it. It would me as well if I had deep feelings for someone and couldn't have a "normal" type existence.
I see no easy solution for you. Cutting bait and calling off the relationship will not get you much closer to the life you want to be sharing with someone. Half the battle is finding someone you like and get along with well. It seems you have that. Personally, I would still be concerned with his feelings on long term commitment (unless I missed an update on that), to know if your ideals would ever be met by your BF, then I'd evaluate from that position forward.
If long term commitment is on the horizon with him, then I'd probably say that you need to discuss with him that you feel that the time is right for you to make the move to consider living together.
I truly hope this gets resolved for you, being in love shouldn't include longing for someone. | |
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Posted: 2/13/2009 4:27:52 PM | what I don't understand Carol Ann, is that if he really has more free time... why not spend more of that free time with you? Helping you out, joining you for dinner?
I'm the inflexible one, too. I have a three kids, full time work, and schoolwork, too. But I think when people have a clear idea about what they need, they find what they need a lot easier. There are things I cannot compromise on, and I make those things clear.
A lot of men wouldn't be able to deal with my schedule of availability, so I need a man who is into me enough to work with me and contribute to my life. Because I know what I need, it weeds out the ones who cannot be what I need and that's okay. I guess I just know that I'm worth it to the right person. Now, I have better friends than ever, and a guy who wants me in his life enough that he will help me with the kids so I have more time with him.
I think you are a smart lady and you'll figure out what you really need and what you can compromise on. | |
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Posted: 2/13/2009 6:15:59 PM | Alabamamam,
I have read some follow up threads and I agree that CarolAnn is a very smart woman.
I think she is, too. She seems to be the furthest thing from a flake.
I am not sure why to question the instutution of marrige and assume that the relationship can be very lovely and commited without marrige if the OP indicated clearly that marrige it is what she desires.
First, "institution" of marriage? Geez, sounds like a prison! ;) I always get a kick out of people using that word with it. Sounds like you're locked up or something... gives it a negative connotation. Anyway...
If a relationship cannot be lovely and committed without marriage -- why marry? Don't you get married WHEN it's blossomed into something lovely and commitment has been established and tested? Imagine a friend describing their relationship... "Our relationship isn't lovely... and commitment is a problem. So we're going to get married!" To her credit, I don't think she sees commitment problems, though. Commitment problems are when someone has issues with being exclusive with the other.
People aren't questioning the "institution" of marriage. They're questioning whether she should get married or not, and if that's the best idea in the first place. Her desiring marriage in general it is great. The question is:
a) Is it because she feels lonely and desires him to fill that void?
-or-
b) Is it because she wants to go that extra level with him because she believes they have something special going on? | |
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Posted: 2/13/2009 6:22:26 PM | | Very good points AzureOrb, and I agree. From what I've read though, I'd say it's both (a) AND (b). | |
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Posted: 2/13/2009 6:47:41 PM | | Spending that much time together after all the time you have been a couple seems strange to me. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship where I felt trapped spending too much time with the other person, but seeing them only every 2 to 3 weeks after all that time would not work for me. Are you absolutely sure he hasn't got another relationship on the go? If he hasn't and he's still wary of becoming closer, then there must be something bothering him. Unless you know what it is, you are never going to be able to work this out with him. I don't think there is such a thing as a fear of commitment, but a fear of commitment to a person for some reason. I do think it's instinctive for men to want to be unencumbered too. After all, in primitive times if you were hunting or defending, the last thing you needed was someone hanging on, calling you back, distracting you or making demands of any kind. Having said that, he seems very unattached, as if he has you and other people in particular boxes and hasn't considered altering the arrangement as things have progressed. It's not my life and only you know what feels right to you, but it doesn't sound to me as if he's actually offering you much at all. It's not a material issue, it's whether or not you two are close emotionally and physically. If he really cared for you, wouldn't he want to be there for you? | |
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