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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/19/2009 1:36:32 PM | Msg. #280
Contrary to your ignorance the smell is just the precursor for such nastiness as hydrogen-sulfide, methane, and amonia and in concentrations sufficent not just for discomfort but poisoning and in long term exposure death.
So, just curious...what is the death toll up to now, that is directly attributable to this poisoning of which you speak?
~ds~ | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/19/2009 3:13:22 PM | | DS clarify your question please are you asking how many people die from Hydrogen-sulfide etc poisoning in general or just those attributed to the farms? Further being these are airborne gases you are aware that people may not even be aware they are being poisoned untill the ppm has reached threasholds above what is required for poisoning? | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/19/2009 5:50:07 PM | fireknight, I was inquiring if there have been any documented cases of people dying yet, from poisoning attributed to the gases these large pig farms are emitting.
After I asked the question initially, I googled that portion of the stimulus package to learn more regarding the topic. Essentially what I found from Sen. Harkin, was dialogue pertaining to the 'discomfort' of the stench. I didn't see any information on the gases you mentioned, although I am well aware that those are a natural byproduct of the animal waste. But in terms of people actually being poisoned resulting in death, I couldn't find anything. Afterall, if someone has/had actually died as a direct result, I would assume the Governor, Senators, Reps. and public in general would have been asking for an injunction to cease their operations until a permanent solution was developed, implemented and verified as effective.
Something I did learn which I hadn't known about though, was that this $1.8 million dollars budgeted (requested) for 2010, would have been in addition to the $17 million dollars that have already gone for this research over the last 10 years. How close are they to a solution? How much longer, a) will y'all have to endure the stench, and b) be put at risk to the aforementioned poisoning? Are the citizens of Iowa and their elected officials asking those questions? Are they demanding results from the researchers and a return on (all of our) taxpayer's dollars, or merely pointing the finger of blame at the evil, 'big business' farm(er)s? The ones that employ hundreds or thousands of people, export their product across the Nation and contribute to the economy of Iowa? Are these 'big business' farms contributing to the research and if so, how much?
Okay, hang on a minute. I just went to Sen. Harkins website at senate.gov and found the following under the Appropriations Requests dedicated to Regional Swine Research:
Amount: $300,000
Location: Ames, Iowa
Recipient: Iowa State University
Description: The regional swine research initiative looks to add value to the pork industry by facilitating research and learning for U.S. pork producers through national collaboration. In 2007, the pork industry produced nearly $21.8 billion in personal income from total sales of more than $97 billion and added $34.5 billion to the country’s gross national product. This request is in the interest of the taxpayers because it provides a participatory approach to pinpoint the key research topics that need to be addressed to sustain and improve economic viability.
So now another question I have to ask is...why is/was there $1.8 million dollars budgeted/requested, but the amount appropriated only $300,000.
Okay, I'll be back...more research to do...forgive me.
~ds~ | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/20/2009 4:08:07 AM | Pigs! ~ and their smell ~ the by product. ~
Living a long time permits you to see farther down the road. It's not just academic anymore, it goes beyond just words and numbers.
I watch the town I live in grow up ~ There once was an old pig framer east of town, been there for years. ~ A toll road was built running by his place linking Dallas and Fort Worth, people could now just zip back and forth. As the years passed communities grew up around it. ~ Then the toll road was taken over by the state after 20 years and was free. ~ Homes , building and resturants enjoyed the vista of down town from a high point above the old pig farm.
The old man kept raising his pigs and the people kept complained about the smell.
 This went on for some 10 years, they were in and out of court with the issue.
The people finally won, bought the old farmer out. ~ I don't remember the final cost but it was quit high, in the millions.
The point to this is, ~ the people knew those pigs were there all along as the built their fine resturant and outdoor three level dinning area overlooking down town. As they built neighborhood full of 2 million dollar homes, but it didn't mean anything to them.
We have a Texas Senator ,rep ( Barton) that said just yesterday that Co2 was natural and was good! It's found in Coke a Cola with attempting to discuss the" peoples business".
Well I assure you pig, smell is equally "natural " as well! and you'll spend whatever is necessary to control it if you find much of it up your nose.
Dance | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/20/2009 7:05:47 AM |
Well I assure you pig, smell is equally "natural " as well! and you'll spend whatever is necessary to control it if you find much of it up your nose.
That's just it, Dance...I'm not finding any of it up *my* nose...yet am being asked to help pay a portion of that "whatever is necessary". Also, after 10 years of research...how close are we to knowing how much "whatever is necessary" is going to be? Besides, if this has been going on for 10 years and those citizens are still finding it up their collective noses, guess it hasn't progressed to the point of repugnant intolerance yet. 
~ds~ | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/20/2009 7:28:53 AM | ds I think you are being either slightly intellectually dishonest OR you aren't being very effective in your search terms. If you googled as you said "hydrogen-sulfide poisoning pig farms death" you would find 3790 hits so you would not have found nothing. Among those hits are a CDC report http://www.cdc.gov/Niosh/face/in-house/full9228.html The Australian Governments NPI *national pollutant inventory* fact sheet on the substance and this article from a Canadian pro pork source http://www.albertapork.com/news.aspx?NavigationID=2272 of which this line is of particular note "For hog farm operators, the major cause of accidental death is exposure to build up of gases such as hydrogen sulfide in a confined space. Younger, less experienced workers are the ones most at risk. The report states that there were four instances of multiple deaths from hydrogen sulfide poisoning - involving 18 people in total - during the 1990s and more than half the fatalities were on hog farms."
Further my post was not about there being a high number of deaths only that the "stench" is not just a matter of comfort its about the only warning since the gas is colorless and I believe tasteless that you are being poisoned. There is growing bodies of evidence long term exposure is causing poisoning as well. As better shown in this link http://www.safetydirectory.com/hazardous_substances/hydrogen_sulfide/fact_sheet.htm
The obvious issue being unless someone is actively measuring (and they aren't) the air quality around these farms no one knows when or how long they are being exposed to the gas. I may be naive in this but I believe the researches getting this grant will be working on dealing with the gas and not just removing the stench, the difference between the politicians who probably never studied Chemistry and the Scientists, however I would be greatly concerned if they were just going to remove the only warning of this dangerous gas.
Ultimately the point is as with many industrial problems far more are affected then anyone really knows. | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/20/2009 8:54:12 PM | When the talk of pigs come up ~ my mind drifts back to my Army days and of my buddy Mark Stram. He was from Kansas and his folks into hog farming. ~ The story line would read not unlike the Bubba Shrimp character in the movie "Forest Gump" ~ After sharing some awful days and nights for weeks at a time in the jungle with Mark, I felt like I knew everything there was to know about hogs. The mind wanders for a combat soldier to something more pleasant then the present, it's a way of coping with hardships. Reality being a major drag.
Mark told me, that hogs don't have to be nasty and it's how you manage their keep. ~ I suppose they didn't allow them to root and wallow. For I know given nothing else to do, a hog loves the cool mud during the summer time but he poops in it!
I would guess a lot depends on how many hogs someone dealing with and how to build their keep. An old sow with roll over on her piglet and sqash them and a boar will eat them. ~ So raising a bunch of pigs is no accident.
Raising and Slaughtering hogs, cattle and chickens is "Big Business" and there is a lot involved ~ It's much more then just farming ~ it supply and demand ~ its banks and Wall Street ~ many, many people are involved at all levels. grain and feed stores, vets, brokers, investors , etc ~~
It's not very glamorous and not the conversation of the party but it is , ~ oh so real. The Killing factories.
I am a plumber ? true. I connect pipes and tubing and wires. ~ I am also a air-conditioning / refrigeration contractor as well.
This huge killing and packaging factories require a lots of refrigeration, the biggest work load serviced with huge ammonia systems, able to pull down to a minus 22 degrees with zero effort ~ I'm talking about climate controlled complexes. ~ Think about killing 1800 cows or 2000 pigs tomorrow and how you might go about it.
I speak of these things ~ only to expose them to the average person ~ for their work goes on day and night , 24/7 hidden from public view. Only to show up at your local grocer in a neat little tray in a transparent wrapper all across the country.
Somewhere down the long road, from the sweet grass to the killing house ~ somebody going to smell something ~ It get too nasty to view or discuss over cocktails or short green shot.
But we all gotta eat ~ so in a way ~ it's kind of makes it everyone's problem. ~
Is the tax payer being asked to pay a disproportionate load? ~ perhaps, I don't know.
I feel this is perhaps true in some instances ~ the Exon Valdez and the fisherman of Prince William Sound being one case in point, and I'm sure there are many more examples of people that can least afford it, being asking to pay the most.
Life has never been fair ~ we must fight for fair.
So I understand the thrust of your concerns. ~ Yet I doubt if it's the pig farmer himself that getting into our pockets.
I encourage you to Continue your research and keep us posted ~ you are doing good, try to get the whole picture in clear focus.
Dance | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/29/2009 11:24:19 AM | http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-05-28-debt_N.htm
Leap in U.S. debt hits taxpayers with 12% more red ink
By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY
Taxpayers are on the hook for an extra $55,000 a household to cover rising federal commitments made just in the past year for retirement benefits, the national debt and other government promises, a USA TODAY analysis shows.
The 12% rise in red ink in 2008 stems from an explosion of federal borrowing during the recession, plus an aging population driving up the costs of Medicare and Social Security.
That's the biggest leap in the long-term burden on taxpayers since a Medicare prescription drug benefit was added in 2003.
The latest increase raises federal obligations to a record $546,668 per household in 2008, according to the USA TODAY analysis. That's quadruple what the average U.S. household owes for all mortgages, car loans, credit cards and other debt combined.
"We have a huge implicit mortgage on every household in America — except, unlike a real mortgage, it's not backed up by a house," says David Walker, former U.S. comptroller general, the government's top auditor.
USA TODAY used federal data to compute all government liabilities, from Treasury bonds to Medicare to military pensions.
Bottom line: The government took on $6.8 trillion in new obligations in 2008, pushing the total owed to a record $63.8 trillion.
The numbers measure what's needed today — set aside in a lump sum, earning interest — to pay benefits that won't be covered by future taxes.
Congress can reduce or increase the burden by changing laws that determine taxes and benefits for programs such as Medicare and Social Security.
Rep. Jim Cooper, D-Tenn., says exploding debt has focused attention on the government's financial challenges. "More and more, people are worried about our fiscal future," he says.
Key federal obligations:
• Social Security. It will grow by 1 million to 2 million beneficiaries a year from 2008 through 2032, up from 500,000 a year in the 1990s, its actuaries say. Average benefit: $12,089 in 2008.
• Medicare. More than 1 million a year will enroll starting in 2011 when the first Baby Boomer turns 65. Average 2008 benefit: $11,018.
•Retirement programs. Congress has not set aside money to pay military and civil servant pensions or health care for retirees. These unfunded obligations have increased an average of $300 billion a year since 2003 and now stand at $5.3 trillion.
Funny how different it all sounds when you're talking about spending your very own money doesn't it? Anybody here want to buy the government a mini-mansion? | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/29/2009 6:13:50 PM | " Anyone else hearing that in a Shatner voice ? "
Hmmmmm ... so you people hear voices when you read my posts ??? Fascinating !!!!
I've also been told .... I would have a great voice for phone sex !!!! Ewwwwww !! LOL ......... | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/30/2009 6:27:57 AM | Sorry to get OT, but I don't know how to post a new one. I've already made my thoughts on the stimulus package. It doesn't stimulate much and it's more for politics than the economy. But the package is not the real issue for the economy. It's the Fed and it's scary. If you look back at the H4 reports (weekly summary of Fed repo activity) in the middle of '07 Fed buying went up to around 33 billion/week. In Dec it went to 77 billion and by May of '08 is was 115B. Stayed that way until early this year. That's when the amount went to zero. How? Because now the Fed is using programs like the Primary Dealer Credit Facility, Asset-Backed Commercial Paper Money Market Mutual Fund Liquidity Facility, and the Money Market Investor Funding Facility to pump billions into the economy. No transparency, no accountability and because you don't know how much there's no way to judge the effects either long or short term.
But, judging by LT treasury rates I would say we're in for a very very rough time down the road. | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/30/2009 7:20:51 AM |
Hmmmmm ... so you people hear voices when you read my posts ??? Fascinating !!!!
I've also been told .... I would have a great voice for phone sex !!!! Ewwwwww !! LOL .........
Uh huh....
I also heard the huge WOOSH as the joke went right over your head.
I've been contacted by people off-thread about my post and I wanted to make something clear.
In THIS economic climate, I think it's better that the government put money into projects that provide jobs with living wages for people than to let them sink on their own and end up on social programs. If there's a choice between millions of families living in poverty with no benefit to the people (and businesses suffering because no one can afford their products/services putting even more people out of work) and projects with a benefit to Americans that will stop/slow down/reverse it....
Well, I see it as a no-brainer. | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/30/2009 7:56:54 AM | I don't think its a good idea personally. What happens when all of the roads are built? Where do those workers go?
We need to manufacture more things here and sell them overseas. Building new roads really only speeds up the distribution of foreign made products across America.
Green energy will be rammed down our throats by Cap and Trade. But what happens when all of the green energy projects are done? Where do those workers go to? Are we about to create a "Green Bubble"?
We need to get out of these "free trade agreements" and bring back our manufacturing base.
This "stimulus" is only a short term shot in the arm that's gonna feel good in the short term. I think the dollar is really gonna suffer a lot due to all of the current and previous government spending. That's when the public is going to feel the "real pain". Inflation will be severe, and people's personal savings will suffer due to high inflation.(Loss of buying power) My advice is to buy gold, silver and foreign currency cuz the US Dollar is gonna lose much of it's value. | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/30/2009 8:27:55 AM |
I don't think its a good idea personally. What happens when all of the roads are built? Where do those workers go?
They maintain the roads. I have to wonder what form of ignorance prevents you from understanding something that has occurred for decades. If you've driven on public roads, and I'm sure you have, you should have noticed the presence of road crews working on maintaining that public road.
So are you deliberately forgetting about this because it's convenient to do so, or are you just honestly incapable of remembering what you've seen?
We need to manufacture more things here and sell them overseas.
Ironic seeing as it's the rightwing who promote the free trade policies and deregulation that allowed US manufacturing corps to ship the jobs overseas.
Green energy will be rammed down our throats by Cap and Trade. But what happens when all of the green energy projects are done? Where do those workers go to? Are we about to create a "Green Bubble"?
Again I have to wonder if you are deliberately "forgetting" what everyone else knows, or if you really are that ignorant.
We need to get out of these "free trade agreements" and bring back our manufacturing base.
And suddenly, the wingnuts are in favor of govt regulation. All of a sudden, they WANT the govt to regulate business and pass laws that prohibit them from building factories overseas.
Once again, I have to wonder if you are deliberately "forgetting" that you oppose govt regulation of business.
This "stimulus" is only a short term shot in the arm that's gonna feel good in the short term. I think the dollar is really gonna suffer a lot due to all of the current and previous government spending.
A weak dollar helps prevent jobs from being shipped overseas, something you seem to favor in some posts, but then act against in others.
Your arguments are incoherent. You complain about how the govt "rams" regulations down the throats of businesses, and then complain that the govt is not "ramming" regulations to prevent corps from shipping jobs overseas. | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 5/30/2009 8:57:59 PM | " I also heard the huge WOOSH as the joke went right over your head "
I don't think so ....... It's not like it was YOUR observation ..... you went back and read my posts ..... and thought you would throw it out there .......... yet again .  | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 6/1/2009 6:57:40 PM | ~ well, let's face it! ~ we are not getting out of this world alive anyway ~ so what the hell? ~
let's set around and gripe about things. ~ It's cheap! easy to do and we can do it solo or in groups.
There is no end to what we complain about and who we can blame it on.
I guess many loved the way things were. A war to "no where" 4000 plus American shipped home in a box. I know that means 4000 mother's will miss their child but I wonder how many children are now short a parent?
War profiteering "gone wild"
No answer to Mexican Immigration but a huge fence from Mexico to Canada ~ built with illegal Mexican day labor. ~ yep ! you guessed it! They built both sides of this fence!
and it's already been breached. ~ They got it on camera, ~ from the Mexican side, they parked a car hauling trailer against it and jumped the fence in cars! ~ They when pass that fence like rain through a screen door.
What else can I gripe about? hmm?
Well the chickens have finally came home to roost for GM. ~ They went bankrupt today,
with the help of a loan, two actually ~ they are doing it gracefully.
Their notion of " Planed Obsolesces" ~ made them obsolete ! It took a while,40 years.
I drive Fords ~ why? ~ the are cheaper, I can afford them and they still run, even if they are very broken and worn out.
I remember when the words "Made in Japan" we only seen on cheap, throw away items, combs, ball point pens, toys, etc. The first Toyota I seen was a Fork Lift, in 1961.
Has America sold it's soul to the devil? ~ or just to the highest bidder.
A far as I'm concern, there's little difference.
I was in Japan in 1970, during the World's Fair ~ I found them friendly on the surface, ~ in the back ally's with a belly full of Saki, they get much less friendly in the dark. ~ Don't ever fool yourself into thinking that they are not still pissed. ~ A boot standing on you neck , can makes everyone "friendly"
Where was I? ~ Oh yea , I was gripping.
The "stimulus package" ~ I feel kind it's better then doing nothing. ~
The "trinkle down theroy" still applies ~ awfully slow ~ I hope people can wait for the affect, ~ and we can count on politican's bleeding some of it and lining selected ones pockets, that's a given.
Maybe you'll be lucky enough to know one and get some of it on you.
Maybe it won't all end up over sea's.
Dance | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 8/2/2009 10:29:03 PM | Here's a couple of goodies tucked away in the "stimulus" package.
(Page numbers refer to H.R. 1 EH, pdf version)
The bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.
But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446).
Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464). | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:14:46 PM | Post 109--CharlesEdm--"Wait a minute are you using pre stimulus package job losses as evidence that the stimulus package doesn't work?"
It's not looking so good at the current moment.
Post 142 responding to another posters quote(Below)-
Exactly right. How are millions of government jobs going to do anything to produce goods and products and wealth. You can't redistribute wealth if there isn't any.
Post 142's response (below)
Government spending produces WORK. Work requires JOBS
Sorry but I have to agree with the poster who argues that Government jobs do not produce wealth. Government jobs are not productive. Sure its "work" but that work is mostly paid for by tax dollars. The more Government jobs we have the more our taxes have to increase in order to fund those jobs. When we make things here in this nation and sell them to other nations we bring other nations money and wealth into this nation. Which makes the overall nation richer.
If Government jobs were the solution to economic woes then the Soviet Union would still be here today. China is doing things right. They are not a "closed society" like the Soviet Union was. The Chinese are more then happy to put their people to work in factories by making things cheap to sell abroad in order to bring that wealth into China. Just imagine if the Soviet Union would have eased up and put her people to work in factories to produce stuff to sell the rest of the World like China is currently doing. They probably would have never gone bankrupt. | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:31:45 PM | You are right. In the end you can't rely on government jobs to produce wealth. But these are extraordinary times requiring extraordinary measures. The economy had fallen off the cliff. To get it going you need money to start to flow. One of the tools used by central banks to get money flowing again is to lower interest rates. But with rates already essentially at zero this was'nt available to them.
GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)
Since private consumption had all but stopped due to the housing crisis, investment has also stopped because of the banking problems, you didn't have many options left except for government spending.
Think of the stimulus package as priming the pump. Hopefully it creates jobs which creates consumer spending which in turn will create more jobs. Thats it in rather simple terms. Now hopefully the stimulus package has mostly been spent on public infrastructure so it can also be looked at as an investment for the future. | |
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| How do you really feel about this large stimulus package?
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:32:59 PM | Government jobs are not productive. Sure its "work" but that work is mostly paid for by tax dollars. The more Government jobs we have the more our taxes have to increase in order to fund those jobs. When we make things here in this nation and sell them to other nations we bring other nations money and wealth into this nation. Which makes the overall nation richer
Government jobs provide a service not a product.
There is no profit to be made from a government service type job, though some are sorely needed; police, firefighters, and education just to name a few.
More government jobs always means the government needs more money.
Government needing more money more often than not results in higher taxes, either sales tax, sin type taxes or income tax. | |
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