| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/7/2008 8:55:16 AM | I sometimes wonder about Coyote....the trickster in Indian lore. Wonder where the basis is for that one.....sounds cool though!
the trickster is represented in almost all pagan pantheons
Pan
Loki
Puck
Coyote
Faunus
so in the end i believe they are all one and the same | |
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| American Indian Ways and lumping tribes together with Shamans
Posted: 5/8/2008 8:55:40 AM | I've never met a Native who called themselves a Shaman.. I am friends with a Medicine Man, Blackfoot.. and good friends with a Dreamwalker.
I have met some New Age folk who call themselves Shamans... but I don't know how much of that is affectation.
I'm just a witch, following the path of the Great Mother.
Namasté all!
Ravenstar | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/10/2008 6:23:40 PM | I'm sorry folks.
I'm a Theodish Heathen, and all paganism is not the same. I find it a bit distasteful that you guys appear comfortable lumping all pagan [read: non-Abrahamic] religions together, including your own, whatever it is. That's as bad as the threads where the options are God-believers/atheists.
My religion isn't anything like Wicca, it's not Earth based, it's not Goddess-based, and it ain't all peace and love. And yes, it's based in real history.
I would rather hear that the PoF pagan community is a bit more educated about the diversity of all things, religion included. Come on guys.
What's your actual faith? Who are you? This isn't some faceless mob without individual identity and paths. There must be initiated Wiccans here who aren't happy about how their 'Wicca' is equal to eclecticism or deism. | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/11/2008 3:35:06 AM | No, not all forms of Paganism are alike. I'm on a Druidic path in ADF, the organization Isaac Bonewits founded 25 years ago. In a lot of ways it's more similar to Asatru and other forms of Heathenism. Scholarship is quite important in ADF. We have 9 virtues. We're required to study an Indo-European culture and language. We don't cast circles. I feel more at home in ADF than in Wicca because the former is much closer to how I came to Paganism in the first place.
Yes, there are initiated British Traditional Wiccans (Gardnerians, Alexandrians) who deplore eclectic modern forms of Wicca. In ADF books by DJ Conway ("Celtic Magic", "Norse Magic", etc.) are not recommended because her scholarship is shoddy at best. Same with Ed Fitch and "Rites of Odin"; also, Douglas Monroe and "The 21 Lessons of Merlin", which Isaac Bonewits refers to as "The 21 Lessons of Hogwash". I read Sirona Knight's "Exploring Celtic Druidism" and the practice outlined in that book is more Wiccan than Druidic. Take a look at authors writing books on non-Wiccan forms of Paganism. Are they primarily a Wiccan author? Is the publisher Llewellyn? If the answer is yes to both questions, then the book should be avoided for the most part.
I don't have anything against anybody who wishes to practice an eclectic form of Wicca. The danger comes when those practitioners claim their tradition has been around for thousands of years and make other fallacious historical claims. One Llewellyn author even claimed that the word "Wicca" was Latin in origin. Any linguist worth their salt would know it's Anglo-Saxon. The letter "w" wasn't part of the Latin alphabet; it's not part of the Irish Gaelic alphabet, even though "w" abounds in the Welsh language. There are elements in Wicca which do have roots in pre-Christian Europe, but no, circle casting, calling the watchtowers, etc. aren't among them. Greece and Rome had mystery religions. Romans offered cakes and wine to their gods; sometimes they even offered up animal sacrifices, a famous example being the suovetaurilia. According to Miranda Green's "The World of the Druids", ancient Celts used to use cords in ritual.
As for Heathenism not being Earth- or Goddess-based, it's not as much as Wicca. However, Tacitus in "Germania" did indicate the ancient Germans had an Earth Goddess known as Nerthus. And Freyja was an important goddess for the Norse. Her female Valkyries were the ones who took slain warriors to Valhalla. So to say that Heathenism doesn't revere the feminine would be absurd. On the other hand, even though there are a lot of women in both Heathenism and ADF Druidry, we don't hand over all the power to any one female authority figure either. | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/11/2008 4:51:12 AM |
As for Heathenism not being Earth- or Goddess-based, it's not as much as Wicca. However, Tacitus in "Germania" did indicate the ancient Germans had an Earth Goddess known as Nerthus. And Freyja was an important goddess for the Norse. Her female Valkyries were the ones who took slain warriors to Valhalla. So to say that Heathenism doesn't revere the feminine would be absurd. On the other hand, even though there are a lot of women in both Heathenism and ADF Druidry, we don't hand over all the power to any one female authority figure either.
Yes, but having a goddess thought to 'represent' the Earth is not the same as an 'Earth-based' religion, especially when one considers how great the family of the Asa and Van are in terms of numbers. If you wanted to attempt to boil Asatru down to a theme, it would be a 'tribe-based' religion, since all things which it holds dear revolve around the familial unit and its relation to the immediate families around it, and to those who've gone before, in a sense.
And I certainly didn't say we don't revere the female; I said we are not a Goddess-based religion as was implied in the broad stroke. We don't call Christianity a male-based religion just because Jesus was a guy. There are many other reasons to say that about it. | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/11/2008 7:16:35 AM | | Samhein, I think that higher forces chose some of us either by blood line or past life time efforts. People who are naturals have their own spirit guides that they were born with. I really doesn't matter what "label" of religion you want to put on it. It's about "are you doing 'The Work'". | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/12/2008 4:25:35 PM | hmm
this sort of topic keeps coming up, the "woo-hoo there are other pagans out in POF land". :-)
I do have a few pet peeves with regards to even the title of the topic - Wiccans and Pagans. Since when are Wiccans not pagan? This has been an ongoing issue for individuals who follow a non-wiccan/ceremonial path -- what makes Wicca so special that it must distinguish itself from the rest of the pack?
Anywho, I tend to differentiate between two types of paganism - neo-paganism and paganism. Neo-paganism consists of eclectics and wiccans primarily. Paths that take their inspiration and grew out of the late 19th/early 20th century interest in Ceremonial Magick (Thelema, OTO, Golden Dawn, Rosacrusians etc) and melded the "Guardians of the Water Towers" and the "casting of a circle" from CM with a mish-mash of celtic, anglo-saxon and greco-roman pantheons. Central "mystery" being that of the union between the God and Goddess as symbolised by the chalice and blade. Wicca tends to be fairly duotheistic, though at times there are certain wiccan flavours that are monotheistic (all the gods are one god, all the goddesses are one goddess and The God is one face of The Goddess).
Pagans, or recons if you will, tend to be more culturally focused and polytheistic - hardcore at times. There is a greater emphasis on scholarship as we are trying to follow the ways of our ancestors (whether blood ancestors or spiritual ancestors), as it is difficult to understand a pantheon fully without also understanding the culture associated with that pantheon.
btw, I am a Romuvaite - an adherent of Romuva - the modern expression of Lithuanian Pre-Christian Faith. And yes, I am a hardcore polytheist.
Also don't like the idea of mixing pantheons as I find it to be both disrespectful and dangerous - saw one rit in which the HPS and HP sang that chant "Isis Astarte Diana Hecate Kali Inanna"... and they added in a verse for the male deities.. and they called upon Loki without also calling upon Odin. All the Asatru, Vanatru and other Heathens (and peeps like me) stayed quiet during the chant (and we made up one third of the circle) because it is dangerous to call on the Trickster without calling also upon the All-Father, who can control him to some extent. | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/13/2008 1:34:19 AM | pagan or wiccan?
think it depends on the individual i am a pagan, i call myself pagan, but i know others who dont like the term pagan, so they call themselves wiccans, yet we both follow the same religion and the same practices.
the majority of pagan/wiccans are peace loving people, i get more grief from christians trying to convert me to their religion because they believe the nonsense they read on the net that we kidnap christian children and drink their blood, and dance round naked at the full moon chanting spells. i find their ignorance amusing.
but its nice to seem pagans stepping into the light. | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/14/2008 9:14:57 AM | Coarlan, I agree with you. I have had some pretty odd experiences with Christians. Its like they just cant understand that we can walk alongside them without having to try to convert them in any way. Dancing round naked? Well, I must say it sounds like fun, but I think the old lady next door would get the shock of her life if she peeped out the window and saw me doing that haha! Also, who in their right minds would want to kidnap anyones children? They are difficult enough to look after when they are your own let alone someone elses haha
So I will stick to the elderberry juice and a good old card reading indoors. I only wish we could meet more like minded people. | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/14/2008 9:15:28 PM |
Samhein, I think that higher forces chose some of us either by blood line or past life time efforts. People who are naturals have their own spirit guides that they were born with. I really doesn't matter what "label" of religion you want to put on it. It's about "are you doing 'The Work'".
But Enigma, I agree with you completely. Did I appear not to?  | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/15/2008 4:16:12 AM |
think it depends on the individual i am a pagan, i call myself pagan, but i know others who dont like the term pagan, so they call themselves wiccans, yet we both follow the same religion and the same practices
I had this discussion recently with my Pagan group of friends.... and I think many people don't realize that there is a difference. The terms Pagan and Wiccan are NOT interchangeable. If you are Wiccan, yes you are Pagan.... but if you are Pagan, that does not mean you are Wiccan. Just like if you are Catholic, you are Christian... but I don't think all Christians would appreciate being called Catholic.
Wiccan is just one form of Paganism.... and I think that is what Samhein was trying to point out. I follow more of a Buddhist path than anything - and that is definitely not Wiccan..... for beginners, I don't follow any of the rituals that are associated with Wicca. I also have a lot of earth-based beliefs, but they are not associated with the goddess path. I agree that most Pagans - no matter the denomination, are peace loving people ..... no wonder it is a growing belief system. | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/15/2008 2:58:41 PM | | There is a difference between Wiccan and Pagan in that "Wicca" is one subset of "Pagan" - all Wiccans are Pagans but not all Pagans are Wiccans. To seperate the two and use the phrase "Wiccans and Pagans" is doing a disservice -- as if there is something more special about Wicca then the rest of us plebes. That's like saying "Catholics and Christians" - all Catholics are Christians, so why differentiate when discussing the overall "religious umbrella". | |
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| What do you believe?
Posted: 5/15/2008 6:34:23 PM |
What do wiccans and pagans believe? Do you have a book or website on the subject? I know with Catholics, everything we believe is spelled out in the Catechism. This book contains all the beliefs and rationale.
You can search for Doreen Valiente's poem "The Wiches' Creed." In Wicca, there is no standardized holy book, but that poem sums it up pretty well.
B*B
Jorinx | |
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| Wiccans and Pagans! Give Me That Old Time Religion!
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:34:03 PM |
Wiccan is just one form of Paganism.... and I think that is what Samhein was trying to point out.
Actually, speaking as someone that has had a fair amount of contact with Theodish folk in the past, I'm pretty sure that what Samhein was trying to point out is that there are poignant differences in the various belief sets commonly refered to as "pagan"... differences as great as those found between the various cultures and languages of man.
Even as an umbrella term "pagan" is not equivalent to "Christian" or even "Abrahamic", with various denominations all stemming from a common set of scriptures, beliefs, practices, and prophets. | |
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