| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 3:41:08 PM | | I have excellent "home training", which is what older black folks used to call it when I was growing up, and I use it DAILY -- with everyone -- .regardless of gender , age, or race, and I would no more be partnered with someone who didn't have "home training", AKA, "manners" than I would kidnap your grandmother and kill, cook, and eat her! | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 3:41:24 PM |
It's not without cause. When you make an entire gender the enemy - you don't feel obliged to treat them well or with respect. And to many of those women of '70s and '80s men are still the enemy.
Off topic, but worth pointing out:
A political movement, feminism isn't about making men the enemy, but more about ensuring equality in all aspects of societal life, including the workforce.
The rules were designed by men; it's not men feminists object to, but the rules. | |
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| Manners among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 3:42:43 PM | It's not without cause. When you make an entire gender the enemy - you don't feel obliged to treat them well or with respect. And to many of those women of '70s and '80s men are still the enemy.
Here's a person who doesn't understand what feminism is. And MANY? Really? Or "a few"? Or, "one woman, one time, 25 years ago"?
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Back on topic:
Sometimes, having manners means ignoring when someone makes a social faux pas, too. If you get all huffy because someone was distracted and failed to say thanks, YOUR [lack of ] manners shows. | |
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| Manners among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 4:13:05 PM | I 'LOVE' it when I see on a profile that the man still opens doors for his woman, helps her with her coat, etc.....and no, they don't ALL do it. Some may hold the door for a stranger to get through in a store, but not do it for his special lady. I don't take it for granted, but appreciate it every time it is done for me.
The other day I went to the store to pick up 3 cups of coffee. As I was leaving to go to my car, a man not only pushed by me to get to the door first, but he let the door slam into me...while I was holding hot liquids and he had only a small bag in his hand.  Yep! There are still rude men out there and I pity the woman who got stuck with THAT one!!!
~DC~ | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 4:41:49 PM |
It infuriates me to hear the f* bomb and other colorful language being dropped all over the Wal Mart or even in restaurants with little or no regard for who else is around.
One time when I heard it, I was standing right next to the teen that said it. I looked at her and said that she had every right to say whatever she wanted to but I have a right to not have to hear it. Of course, she was probably swearing at me under her breath as she walked away but at least I didn't have to hear it.
Disclaimer: I would suggest being very careful of who you say this to. | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 4:45:26 PM |
It really was about making men the enemy - we were all chauvinists pigs
Hmm, I didn't get THAT memo.
I was raised by parents who believed that women should be able to be in the workplace if that was her choice, be a stay at home wife and mother if she chose, or do BOTH,and she should receive equal compensation for equal work,and be able to make other business and financial transactions without having male sponsorship. Maybe because they saw at first hand how the previous social dictates could work AGAINST women,from their mothers' experiences
Are there echos of that movement here? Just listen
I'm listening and what I hear is resentment and maybe even a touch of chagrin.
Don't blame a political movement if your love life ain't going the way you want it to. And that's directed to BOTH genders. Sour grapes diatribes are not attractive or appealing.
Cindy O | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 4:47:05 PM |
I personally like to do it but have been yelled at in the past for being "sexist" for doing what I though was common courtesey.
My father, 88, has been opening doors all his life, and he's never had that happen to him - ditto for my ex, my male co-workers, and some male friends I've "polled" since following another thread that I was on that had every male on POF seemingly berated by an "angry feminist".
Also, I work in a busy hospital that has many day clinics - thousands of people (literally) go through our doors every day, and I and many of my co workers (male and female) have held doors open for many men and women and I have never once in twenty years heard a beep out of anyone, except if it was to say thanks. Yet, almost EVERY man of POF has had an encounter with an "angry feminist"...hmm...things that make you go hmm. 
As far as manners, if I see someone who makes a point to say on his profile that he holds doors open for the "ladies" or that he knows "how to treat a lady", I gag and run. It's only common courtesy (and common sense) in my world to hold and open doors for everyone and to treat everyone well.
The fact that anyone needs to make a distinction in how they treat a particular gender means (to me) that they have gender issues.
To me, people are PEOPLE first, men and women second.
Also, it's redundant - it's like saying that you don't chew with your mouth open or that you know how to say please and thank you. Aren't two year olds taught how to say please and thank you and to chew with their mouth closed? 
JMO
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 4:55:10 PM | It really was about making men the enemy - we were all chauvinists pigs - at least in Ann Arbor in the 70's. It was not a political movement per se, but a cultural one as well.
You're right. For those women who chose to ignore feminism's political backbone, men became an easy target for all their woes. But for those who don't like to play the victim or who are truly humanist, men will never be "the enemy".
Are there echos of that movement here? Just listen. Look at the way the genders talk to each other now years later.
What you "hear" on PoF forums is not feminism, it's BAD MANNERS. Hey, I'm on-topic again!
Women over 50 are afraid of a guy with his gonads intact.
How can we prove to you we're not afraid... | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 4:57:22 PM | The feminism will always exist...it is logical.Somebody has to fight for our law and interests.
So...until are men and women...feminism will exist.And good.
Good mannors have nothing with feminists... | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 4:59:26 PM | I find it weird that anyone feels the need to add to their profile that they hold doors open, know how to treat a lady, and say please and thank you. I wonder what these people would think if they came upon a profile that said something like "must know how to hold open a door for a lady, and must say please and thank you".
Too weird. | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 5:06:43 PM | Women over 50 are afraid of a guy with his gonads intact. Culturally, they are not used to it. The feminists always have, and always will, look for suck-ups.
Well, no one is forcing you to seek romance from the "feminists". And women who are truly secure in themselves don't need suckups. Of course, women who are truly secure in themselves also don't date angry, bitter men. They are fine with being single 'til they find one who has gotten over himself, and if they never find one, remaining single is a perfectly acceptable course of action.
Speaking of manners, I mean no disrespect here, but I felt that I should be able to state my opinion. If some found it insufficiently sugarcoated, I regret their dependence on artificial sweetness.
count the number of men here willing to withstand the onslaught of female/feminist/jaded wackos
Maybe they just don't see every woman with a mind of her own as a "female/feminist/jaded wacko".
Claiming that everyone in the parade is out of step but you is a tired cliche. And were I to need something to hide behind, I reckon I could blame Wall Street too, for the conditions that prevail with respect to Adventures in Modern Dating. But since I don't care to date men who are too easily swayed by advertising and popular opinion anyway, I won't.
Cindy O | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 5:24:50 PM |
I think RanRan is flirting with me, all this talk about intact gonads.
yeah, but I was taught that men who discuss their gonads in mixed company are insecure. Sorry Cass...maybe he's an anomaly.
Cindy O | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 6:19:47 PM | I was tutored extensively in manners, charm and grace by my Grandmother who strictly enforced the practice of southern manners (don't know why it's a southern thing but she said it was) Here are a few examples.
Always take the arm of a man when approaching a coffin at a funeral.
You never ever clink the glass when toasting someone who is deceased.
You have two minutes to make your choice from a menu.
Never walk and carry a drink or cigarette.
Never flip ashes, gently roll them (yes there was smoking ettiquette)
Head up, eyes forward when walking down stairs (ever tried that one?)
The art of the curtsey (yes at age four you learned this very ladylike stance)
Always look a man in the eye when he lights your cigarette.
Always tuck your gloves under your seat at dinner (yes, you sit on them)
Well these were just a few of sunday propers I had to learn and Please, thank you, sir and ma'am were always high priority. I never was to call an elder by their first name, but my Mr. Mrs or Miss and once got my mouth washed out with ivory, for sayin' the word booger. | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 6:39:56 PM | Went out for dinner with a tall man once whose gait was significantly longer than mine.
When we finished and stood to leave I was putting on my jacket and when I looked up he had
already crossed the restaurant and was at the entrance and gone...bye,bye.
I walked leisurely toward the door and stood with the bartender watching my date through the windows.
He got half way down the block before he realized that I wasn't with him.
He came back all perplexed....like where'd ya go?
It didn't occur to him that I would have to run to keep up to him...and that was not going to happen.
I took that opportunity to teach him that it was common courtesy to be aware of your companion's presence...be it male or female.
He wasn't naturally rude, just lacking in the courtesy of common sense.
From that point onward, he always waited for me, and we walked arm in arm so he would
have to shorten his stride.
Sometimes you can teach an old dog new tricks...providing they don't have a terrified death grip on their nads.
~mizz | |
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*Don*
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Joined: 1/30/2009
Msg: 41 | |
| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 7:58:05 PM | To answer your original question, Ms. Moraima, of course manners matter. You don’t get anywhere easily in the business world, the consumer world, or in the world of any normal social interactions without them. And for most of us in the Over 45 crowd, we were taught the full ‘Book of Manners’ by our ‘other era’ parents, during a time when manners were a bit more of a priority.
Personally, I’ve not run into the irate feminism business where my common courtesies were a source of contention by those I’ve dated or spent my time with. But then, berating basic courtesy is usually a product of folks lacking in manners, respect and courtesy themselves. And I don’t usually choose to spend my time with such people – only if absolutely necessary. They’re a bit too tedious for my tastes.
D | |
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| Manners among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 9:32:55 PM | Went out for dinner with a tall man once whose gait was significantly longer than mine.
When we finished and stood to leave I was putting on my jacket and when I looked up he had
already crossed the restaurant and was at the entrance and gone...bye,bye.
I walked leisurely toward the door and stood with the bartender watching my date through the windows.
He got half way down the block before he realized that I wasn't with him.
He came back all perplexed....like where'd ya go?
It didn't occur to him that I would have to run to keep up to him...and that was not going to happen.
I took that opportunity to teach him that it was common courtesy to be aware of your companion's presence...be it male or female.
He wasn't naturally rude, just lacking in the courtesy of common sense.
From that point onward, he always waited for me, and we walked arm in arm so he would
have to shorten his stride.
Sometimes you can teach an old dog new tricks...providing they don't have a terrified death grip on their nads.
Nice post. I was going to say how odd it seemed for people to feel they need to put in their profiles that they are looking for someone with good manners....afterall, it seems it should be a given at our age, well, for any adult. But then I read your post, mizz, and see another side to it. As long as the 'old dog' is willing to learn a few new tricks..... (disclaimer: this was NOT a sexist comment....the term 'old dogs' is a metaphor, not gender specific...) | |
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| Manners among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 9:46:59 PM | | Most but certainly not all of the women I encounter socially have decent manners. Some have been well brought up indeed and send thank you notes and so on. Others are not so fortunate and it shows. I am appalled at how some men hold their forks in their fists as if they were shovels, though. | |
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| Manners among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/16/2009 11:28:49 PM | | Most of us who have spent time on college campuses know there is no more a single feminism than there is an "all women ...." I've been insulted for holding doors open and have had others I know to be feminists thank me and turn around and hold the next door for me. Often the feminist sects on campus spend more time fighting each other than they do criticizing men. And yes there are branches of feminism who see men as the enemy and assert in their literature that traditional marriage is prostitution and anyone sleeping with a man is sleeping with the enemy. I doubt however that they would spend much time on a heterosexual dating site. These days when a woman declares she's a feminist you practically have to find out who she reads before you know what that means. Fortunately, what I call the radical feminists (i know an ambigous and ill defined term) are in decline, imho. All to often their goal appeared to be to out do men at all their worst manners. | |
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| Manners among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/17/2009 12:22:47 AM | As I have grown older, I have become a feminist. Most probably a radical. I shall define that as interested in status of women in society and actively working towards autonomy for women. My reason? Simply as I have gotten older I like men less and less. The reason is that, as my experience dictates, men don’t listen to women. I watch the older chaps in the meetings - there are all sorts of body language . And interestingly the woman CEO has more men advisers . She is tremendously unpopular in a predominantly women workforce and has about 4 months to go on her contract.
So manners of the 45 and older are to me about listening to the other person, being aware and responding appropriately to them. Works like a charm – ever time | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/17/2009 4:12:37 AM | RanRan----30+ years later & you still don't get the feminist movement. It wasn't about YOU it was about US. We were never enemies with men. I can see it still chaps your hide that we woman are equal. Yeah I know we should have stayed barefoot & pregnant.
We bra burning, big mouth, rebel, alpha females with broken finger nails from clawing through the glass ceiling are the reason our little sisters have the opportunities they have today. Sheat someone stop me before I crawl through this screen & grab this dumb ole man by the throat. | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/17/2009 4:44:29 AM | I have seen many profiles in which the men do stress that they enjoy treating women like ladies by opening doors, holding chairs and helping with their coats. This is NOT an automatic given with all men.
There are some countries where men still seem to do this quite regularly....opening doors, helping ladies, etc. Austria, unfortunately, is not one of them. When I go someplace and men behave like that, I find it very nice. However, this is not necessarily good manners, it is more something like courtesy and chivalry, as far as I define the term. Good manners is something everyone should be doing for each other. And being a gentleman (or a lady) is not specifically about good manners, either. A man can open all the doors and pull out all the chairs he wants, but if he is unkind and disrespectful to someone other than the lady he is trying to impress, he is no gentleman: an example would be a man who takes you out to dinner, does all the appropriate chivalrous things (chair, coat, door, etc.) and is rude to the wait staff.
It's not without cause. When you make an entire gender the enemy - you don't feel obliged to treat them well or with respect. And to many of those women of '70s and '80s men are still the enemy.
Chauvinism defined is: 'an extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of a group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group.'
It really was about making men the enemy - we were all chauvinists pigs - at least in Ann Arbor in the 70's. It was not a political movement per se, but a cultural one as well. Are there echos of that movement here? Just listen. Look at the way the genders talk to each other now years later.
Women over 50 are afraid of a guy with his gonads intact. Culturally, they are not used to it. The feminists always have, and always will, look for suck-ups.
I believe the feminism to which you are referring is extremist feminsim, which has taken the original concept of feminism, a political and social movement whose goal is equality for women, taken that concept to extremes. Calling men chauvinist pigs and shouting at them for holding open doors is probably behavior that no longer takes place as most women who believe in feminism are more sophisticated thinkers nowadays. What I see is that it is the younger women who are more radical and get pushed out of shape when men open doors or offer to carry their bags or whatever. It is younger women who I hear and read saying the types of things that might push men away as far as radical feminist ideology. My impression is that older women have learned to realize what is important as far as feminist ideology, not doors and coats but fairness and equality in the workplace and socially. There are millions of men, btw, who consider themselves feminists because they understand the ideology, and understand that it is not an ideology that has anything to do with hating men or considering them the enemy.
In any case, as far as the O.T.: it can be the case that the behavior of radical or extremist feminists have taught some men to avoid being courteous to women. And that is too bad.
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/17/2009 7:07:42 AM | I, for one, don't think it's strange. I was brought up to have respect for women and to appreciate the difference between the sexes. DOn't get me wrong; I don't believe that women are the weaker sex,,,,,maybe just the fairer sex! But to be honest, I try to catch the door for just about anyone. Maybe it's just part of trying to be a gentleman.
I don't see any rason to want to lose that part of my upbringing. | |
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| Mannors among the over 45 yr. old
Posted: 2/17/2009 7:51:22 AM | I think manors are a direct effect of not only childhood exposure but the choice as a human to be an adult and recognize other adults would rather sit in the choice to revictimize themself for a lifetime instead of bellie up and stop being a reactive 6year old child who blames everyone else and the planet for there negative chitty additude.
in those eye's it is the entire genders effect which triggers adult child to react because they have not taken the time to grow back up after the emotional injury of divorce....seperation anxiety and parinoid within the adult gasping at straws in other to find their own value.
the sad part is the autonomy around this human and the choice to not recognize they are the common denominator in there own life....making changes to find good is an adult choice when you recognize the emotions are not logical for people who do not have the privillige of your past...eventually you catch yourself in a maze and when you see the child on the surface reacting unrealisticly and mean to others is cuz they are very sad in there heart...
the anger is confusion...the history is 2 people made a choice and both take the connet for the effect of there adult choice to bellie up on the choice to get involved with the divorced partner to begin with..all effects in the bucket and your adult has a chance to breath fresh virgin air and find the adult under that pile in the bucket...
Key here is recognision and than a abrupt choice to cull the wounded child off the adult personality removing child reactions...take patience and time to deal people who are wounded and have packed the anger.
Lays down patience card ..............when humans are healed of anger they are nice and kind...when human's are hurting inside there heart they have trouble finding kind and nice but it is under all the angry for sure....
the saddist part for me is knowing the pain and knowing how dang tough it is to find the freedom door and i will breech the bridge every single time...cuz i am not afraid of there fear and i know how to develope a bond of trust to feed my strength into center core...so stop thinking mannors are a choice.
mannors are the residue of happy folks not people who are wounded and living on the surface in there pain.....so i have forgiveness and i do not look for kind in folks cuz i know the pain of life too well....
is sad there are so many wounded human's on the planet who are living in anger and blame the entire gender for there error on picking up the ADULT responsibility of the choice to pair to begin with(this connects the beginning and is the beginning you need to start with)...oh well.livin and learnin right!!! action and consequence is significant in maintaining your adult skill to keep an open mind and not pigeon hole the gender...goodluck. recognizing children skills live on /in adults is a diffieclt process but well worth the trip back to self. goodluck lil fishy there are answers to every question ...trust is something you earn...and in esteem you earn it from yourself...it is a door back into the WHY.......
but this time you ask yourself why.........and don't expect a pretty answer either....winks. is ugly but that is the map to finding mannors..roar.IMO of course. | |
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