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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 7:20:58 AM | There are no ridiculous threads just...
"this is really a kind of ridiculous thread. as even scripturally god gave man free will, he never once stated you absolutely cant do anything, free will is free will regardless if you believe in god or dont"
Actually He did state that "you absolutely can't do anything" like ten times. Which makes the ad on the bus a little stupid in my opinion. Literally if they are suggesting that there is no God so stop living as if there were, then you would have people coveting their neighbors' wives all over the place. It'd be ugly and for no purpose. The ad literally suggests you commit a bunch of crimes both moral and criminal. But on the other hand, living in fear of some divine retribution probably causes as many problems as it solves. So there is a point to it. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 10:54:55 AM |
random babbling
Hey, I'm not the one claiming it's true. I'm claiming that it isn't. You're the one that said it was a great history book, so the onus is on you to back that claim up. What you're doing is a common logical fallacy.
That said, I can provide evidence of the few things I've said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/africa/03exodus.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Here's an article supporting the claim that the Jews were never slaves in Egypt.
http://www.looklex.com/e.o/gospel.htm
Is one article about the age of the gospels, and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Dating
is another.
I never once claimed I didn't need air in order to live. I said I could live a long and happy life without an invisible friend. You and I both know that I was referring to god, Jesus, Mohammad, or any of the other deities that any particular religion believes in. You've made an argument ad absurdum, and a straw man, all at once. Well done.
I stated that I wasn't a christian, not because I don't think those other belief systems are valid, but because in our society, that's the most prominent and socially accepted religion. Seriously, try not to be so thick.
Again, you've made an ad hominem attack against me, claiming that I am "too special to have had a history". I never once claimed that I didn't. I never once claimed that I had not had tough times, JUST LIKE EVERYONE DOES, from time to time. What I did say is that you feeling like you were in positions where your own selfish thoughts and desires being the driving force do shed light on your own morality. Those to things are very different subjects, and it's offensive to think that you would compare depression and hard times to being selfish and and immoral.
Your whole argument that Bob the Butcher didn't get his name written down in a history book doesn't prove he DIDN'T live back then is irrelevant. Bob the Butcher didn't supposedly cure the blind, heal the sick, feed 1000 people with a couple loaves of bread and a few fish, didn't walk on water, didn't rise from the dead.
You'd think, with someone walking around doing these great miracles, someone would have written about it at the time, instead of waiting 35 years to mention it in a storybook.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It's not my responsibility to prove that someone DIDN'T exist at any time. It's yours to prove that they did. That's just a basic argumentary premise.
I've provided evidence of my claims. Go ahead, try and prove yours. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 11:00:15 AM |
Actually He did state that "you absolutely can't do anything" like ten times. Which makes the ad on the bus a little stupid in my opinion. Literally if they are suggesting that there is no God so stop living as if there were, then you would have people coveting their neighbors' wives all over the place. It'd be ugly and for no purpose. The ad literally suggests you commit a bunch of crimes both moral and criminal. But on the other hand, living in fear of some divine retribution probably causes as many problems as it solves. So there is a point to it.
This is a great example of someone who has no idea what morality actually is. If the only reason you don't do all those things is because you're worried god will get mad, then you're not really a moral person. What it's saying, as I've said a few times, that people can, in fact, be moral and good people without worrying about any god looking over their shoulder. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 11:12:34 AM |
If the only reason you don't do all those things is because you're worried god will get mad, then you're not really a moral person.
people can, in fact, be moral and good people without worrying about any god looking over their shoulder. HERE! HERE! Well put Uber! (especially for a Flames fan) | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 11:38:41 AM | In fact there is more than enough evidence to show that our morality is simply an outgrowth of primate pack behaviour developed over time into more sophisticated forms of group dynamic as we became more sophisticated as animals.
Anyone who studies Near Eastern History and Religion soon finds law codes in Egypt and Sumer and other nations as sophisticated (moreso) than the Hebrew codes that predate them by thousands of years that the Israelites obviously lifted and adapted for their own use. Gods did not make them - we did. Our own primitive, fumbling halting attempts to organize ourselves into groups that did not fall apart. But anyone who studies primates can see it begins as soon as groups of apes and monkeys start to band together to collect food for groups and care for each others young. There are genetic advantages to being moral. You get to live longer and spread more DNA. Woohoo   | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 12:35:46 PM | | Uber Dude, you're confused man. I'm not saying that the only morality is biblical. It's just that the ad on the bus says that it's no fun acting in fear of God. The Bible contains God's words and part of that is a moral code, some of which we still use today. The ad implies that you might as well have a little fun because it's not going to matter anyway. That fun may be immoral because of the God reference. It could also mean working on Sunday, having a Barbie doll or being mean to your employees, but there's a good chance they're implying other forms of immorality because that's always more fun. So what you're saying is that if a religious person goes through life without murdering anyone, they are not acting morally. But if a non religious person goes through life without murdering anyone, then they are truly moral? I'm not religious at all, so would it be more or less immoral for me to bang my neighbor's wife and steal his donkey as it would be for a religious person? Please explain how that works. You may want to include the existence of universal moral truth as part of your answer. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 12:53:35 PM |
You may want to include the existence of universal moral truth as part of your answer.
What's "universal moral truth?"
This is Philosophy of Ethics 101. Why do you think there is such a notion? Because "goddidit?" or more likely certain ideas developed cross-culturally because they happened to make sense from a community/herd/pack survival point of view? Occam's Razor tells us not to multiply entities unnecessarily so we needn't make the argument more complex than it need be, especially by postulating invisible gods when we know that we ourselves can make rules up.
The implication of "stop worrying" is about the fear of Hell. It is phrased best by Pascal's Wager.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
Popularist of Atheism and Secular humanism, scientist Richard Dawkins argues:
...for an "anti-Pascal wager" in his book, The God Delusion. "Suppose we grant that there is indeed some small chance that God exists. Nevertheless, it could be said that you will lead a better, fuller life if you bet on his not existing, than if you bet on his existing and therefore squander your precious time on worshipping him, sacrificing to him, fighting and dying for him, etc." [21] Pascal actually took this idea into account in the original manuscript as explained in the above section.
So if you go about your life living by reason and making ethical moral decisions based on reason and not in fear of divine punishment or failing to obey some god or spirit, you have, according to the secular humanist philosophy, freed yourself from bondage to superstition. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 1:54:43 PM | "more likely certain ideas developed cross-culturally because they happened to make sense from a community/herd/pack survival point of view?"
Yeah, that's exactly what I think universal moral truth is. You're totally right. My point is that just because morality is mentioned in the Bible doesn't make it wrong, different or any less true than your herd survival theory. And yes, freeing yourself from the bondage of superstition is fabulous, but people who are bound by superstition are no less moral than those who aren't. You can't correctly say...
"If the only reason you don't do all those things is because you're worried god will get mad, then you're not really a moral person."
I remember Pascal's Wager as being something like you should live as though there is a God who will judge you because even if there isn't, when you follow His rules, you will live an easier, happier life whether or not there is a reward at the end. Am I wrong? How does this work in your argument? | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 2:09:55 PM | hmm well who created morality?
if god has caused so many wars, then how come noone has ever charged god with all these evil acts?
you all seem so happy to blame god for all your fears and worries , you say someone isnt doing a crime because they fear divine punishment. so since you have no fear of divine punishment, what ius stopping you? where did your morals come from originally? id assume they were taught to you as a child, and your parents were taught in the same manner
animals fear noone, they are taught from babies to act.
so , i guess with all your attempts to deny god his respect due to the book that denotes his will and his rules for mankind to follow , in order to live a ghealthy lifestyle, in the end, you really have nowhere to go , but to actually admit that due to gods influence over mankind, your morals and beliefs, [even tho you arent a member of a religion as you say, ] can be considered a free gift to you from the book you deny and try to defame.
its funny how you argue against a set or morals set out in paper, none of which bring harm to you or anyone else. a book that doesnt preach for war orf murder, but merely tells a story of the past. are ypu also agaionst readers digest, and perhaps other compilations?or just the bible because some zealous wanna be scholar looking for attention says the jews were never slaves of egypt.
i dont know if id like to see a world , with no preset code for behaviour or morals.
even the justice system is based upon the commandments
i can say religion as a whole. has let us all down, by their perverting actual biblical terms and verses. the bible tho in and of itself hasnt ever harmed anyone
when was the last time god smote you and gave you a black eye? | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 2:22:43 PM |
"more likely certain ideas developed cross-culturally because they happened to make sense from a community/herd/pack survival point of view?"
Yeah, that's exactly what I think universal moral truth is. You're totally right. My point is that just because morality is mentioned in the Bible doesn't make it wrong, different or any less true than your herd survival theory. And yes, freeing yourself from the bondage of superstition is fabulous, but people who are bound by superstition are no less moral than those who aren't. You can't correctly say...
I agree with you. This is a tempest in a teapot. For the most part, the religiously inclined are as moral as anyone else. Historically, however there has been an implication from the religious quarter - and I think this is undeniable - that the secular is not moral in an attempt to proselytize. These advertisements run counter to that idea and present a strong rebuttal. That has some religious people's knickers in a knot...probably because they don't believe in equal time for the secular humanists who, for the longest time, have been shut out of public debate. Up until this last century or so you faced public censure and social isolation at the least for being an atheist or humanist...prior to that you could very well face death as the Church held societal control in the West. In Islamic theocracies, you still DO face death under Sharia law for such things. There are groups in North America (Christian Dominionists) who want to make it punishable by death to blaspheme among other things...the Christian right in Washington has, until recently, been a chief influence of public policy.
So, these issues are a lot on people's minds and it is serious.
"If the only reason you don't do all those things is because you're worried god will get mad, then you're not really a moral person."
I remember Pascal's Wager as being something like you should live as though there is a God who will judge you because even if there isn't, when you follow His rules, you will live an easier, happier life whether or not there is a reward at the end. Am I wrong? How does this work in your argument?
Because it's an argument motivated by fear. If you look at the opposite argument as illustrated by Dawkins, the anti-Pascal's wager illustrates how nonsensical the first one is.
Pascal's argument is it's better to bet on the horse that has the power to condemn you because if you choose to do it and there is no God you will have lost nothing. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 2:38:13 PM |
hmm well who created morality?
No one. It arose evolutionarily as a method of maintaining the most amount of fit reproductive members of populations. There is evidence of a basic moral code in Bonobos and Chimpanzees, as well as many other primate populations.
you all seem so happy to blame god
I haven't blamed god for anything. He/she has never done anything for me, or against me, since a non-existent entity can't actually do anything to me, so it would be pretty silly to blame someone that I don't even believe exists.
your morals and beliefs, ... can be considered a free gift
Not likely. My morals and beliefs can probably be found in the Bible, but they can also be found in the Dictionary, War and Peace, and various works of Shakespeare. All of which require significant picking and choosing which morals I agree with, and which ones I don't. (P.S. I don't think giving up my kids to a violent mob who are going to rape them is particularly moral. Nor do I think that stoning women to death for speaking out agains their husbands a good idea.)
but merely tells a story
Taken out of context, but that's exactly what the Bible does. Tells a story. Like Dr. Seuss. With a lot of genocide.
even the justice system is based upon the commandments
Nope. Hammurabi's Code, which predates the bible by a good 2000 years, is considered the basis of the Western justice system. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 3:44:52 PM | Hammurabi's code is about 700 years older than Moses and the ten commandments. The last of the Bible books was written about 1800 years after Hammurabi. It's just that the stele that part of Hammurabi's code was written on wasn't discovered until 1901. There are many stelae that are presumed missing. Canada's laws based on the British North American Act were already in effect. The Bible was known for hundreds of years before this discovery and probably had more influence in western culture. There are law codes that were discovered and are older than Hammurabi such as the Ur-Nammu code. What is interesting that by looking at all these different laws throughout history, what people considered to be wrong thousands of yeas ago they still consider wrong today. Both Hammurabi and the Mosaic Law include a system of punishments and restoration.
As for these ads and everyone's personal opinion as to whether God exists, it doesn't really matter what we think. He either exists or He doesn't. If God exists, does He just let us do our own thing? People can put whatever they want on buses or signs and can think whatever they want. Popular consensus isn't what decides if something exists or not. Hell, we could all be wrong to some degree in our perception of things. I have a feeling we base our personal beliefs on our personal agendas. The thing is we can do whatever we want but there are always consequences, both good and bad, either instantly or eventually. The law of consequences always exists even if there is no written law that covers it. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 4:11:29 PM | it rose evolutionarilly? wtf is that . are you in the midst of your own personal evolution or something? lol
too much lol
now you are comparing your personal morals to those of chimpanzees and monkeys?
maybe you should try to list your exact morals, then maybe we can compare them to hamurabis code and all the other codes you want to pop into the fray.
its ok for you to dislike whatever you choose tho , thats your god given right
so practice away
genocide lol what a joke, like mankind requires religion as an excuse to murder rape and wipe out civilizations.
the true culprit of wars and all the other things that are wrong is money and greed. religion is just a tool to harness the manpower required to act upon mankinds greed.
funny how after all the wars in the past, you hear about looting pillaging and razing to the ground, yet very rarely do we ever hear of them forgiving and turning the other cheek , as the bible tells us to do,
so try to blame the bible and god all you want , your only proving the fact that man is by his very nature inclined towards acts of evil, no god is required for him to act upon it
ghenghis khan wasnt a religious man he massacred millions , ate the children, boiled them to feed to his armies
history is full of monsters who werent prone to any religion or bible.
why dont these same clowns putting these ads on busses also put " there is no money so dont worry and enjoy your life"
money is a material possesion, and this society is all about the material possesions. thats why it seeks to deny and abolish god | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 5:08:31 PM |
it rose evolutionarilly? wtf is that . are you in the midst of your own personal evolution or something? lol
too much lol
No, the implication is that all human moral codes arose out of primate behaviour. As the human animal gradually evolved into what it is today, it's social behaviours became more complex until after a few hundred thousand years and the development of first spoken then written language they became moral codes.
now you are comparing your personal morals to those of chimpanzees and monkeys?
No, all of humanity is being analyzed here, no one person's personal code.
maybe you should try to list your exact morals, then maybe we can compare them to hamurabis code and all the other codes you want to pop into the fray.
Why would anyone do that? It would be off-topic as well as pointless.
genocide lol what a joke, like mankind requires religion as an excuse to murder rape and wipe out civilizations.
the true culprit of wars and all the other things that are wrong is money and greed. religion is just a tool to harness the manpower required to act upon mankinds greed.
funny how after all the wars in the past, you hear about looting pillaging and razing to the ground, yet very rarely do we ever hear of them forgiving and turning the other cheek , as the bible tells us to do,
so try to blame the bible and god all you want , your only proving the fact that man is by his very nature inclined towards acts of evil, no god is required for him to act upon it
ghenghis khan wasnt a religious man he massacred millions , ate the children, boiled them to feed to his armies
history is full of monsters who werent prone to any religion or bible.
why dont these same clowns putting these ads on busses also put " there is no money so dont worry and enjoy your life"
money is a material possesion, and this society is all about the material possesions. thats why it seeks to deny and abolish god
Apparently you have some additional axes to grind, and/or agendas here...but is it really necessary to construct straw-man arguments or wildly speculate about the position of the secular humanists who made the bus ads when they have spoken out many times as to why they have made them? I think not. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 5:52:56 PM | | I'm just sort of wondering why there is a need to advertise a non belief. Not believing in God really doesn't matter. I love that they have the freedom to do it, I just don't get why it's important to poke sticks at thumpers. It seems provocatory and insincere in its attempt to generate discusion. It's kind of like telling kids there's no Easter Bunny. Oops. Sorry. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 9:17:12 PM |
It's kind of like telling kids there's no Easter Bunny. Oops. Sorry.
Going to cry myself gently to sleep now.
But seriously... I think it's an exercise of their freedom and a case of turnabout is fair play. A touch provocative...yes I would agree. Insincere? I don't know about that. In many of the debates of late I think there is a genuine fear, as I noted above, of the danger of North American theocracy. With political correctness in parts of Europe, Great Britain in particular, reaching absurd heights through manipulation and fear of reprisal, we see the possible implementation of Sharia Law to placate fundamentalist Muslim communities being discussed. (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7232661.stm)
Some people, myself included, find this to be not only dangerous but a slippery slope to chaos. Using similar logic, you can justify just about any absurdity you want...simply by attaching the caveat that it is bounded by the sanctity of religion, and it becomes taboo to question it. Very dangerous indeed. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/5/2009 10:46:56 PM | After the great success of Dawkins' book The God Delusion and Hitchens' God is Not Great, atheism is taking the next step and forming itself into an organized movement.
Now if religion is an organized movement with a central belief, what exactly is atheism?
I'm a bit confused.. I don't see this as a lack of a fundamental belief system.. rather a different type of belief ..
People from South America worshipped Jaguar Gods..
Human are hardwired to believe in something, to actually believe in nothing is actually I believe impossible.
What you have is differing belief systems? No different than Mormans, Hindus or Jews.
Different doctrines, different ideology.. but still atheism itself is a belief in something. they believe in humans. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/6/2009 12:15:07 AM | ^^ Somewhat well put but, Atheists do not believe in humans... they (and I say this as one) believe in free will which has nothing to do with a human belief system. I believe in free will.
I do not subscribe to any invisible "god" that lives in the clouds and if some people require that to keep them on the straight and narrow then so be it. They are weak.
I wonder what would happen if all Christians were to be proven that there is no god? what would happen? would they all become horrid and immoral?
Pretty sure that won't happen though... oops... it has.. but they just keep on believing.... (listening to Journey perhaps).....  | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/6/2009 12:25:01 AM | There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance
A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars arent aligned ---
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive
You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose FREE WILL | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/6/2009 12:51:46 AM | If you read the bible you quickly see that it is full of justified violence, hate, racism, and all those other things that we don't really think is appropriate.
So the question is, did the bible teach us those lessons or did we naturally evolve to them?
God is judgmental and quite picky and in today's world that is very UN-PC. | |
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| 'There Probably No God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life'
Posted: 3/6/2009 4:25:03 AM | God gave us life and the human race screwed it up and have been screwing up from the beginning of time. Do you remember the story of Adam and Eve?
I agree about the violence tho. In reading the Old Testament years ago, I was shocked to read of the crap that went on even B.C. But I do not agree that it is God that a hand in this.
What makes you say that He is judgemental and picky? | |
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