| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 1:24:01 PM | I'm athiest, just so you all know my own personal standpoint.
I'd also like to point out, on average, schools of a religious nomination turn out better (on average) ofsted reports than schools without a religious nomination.
As to the topic at hand, education in religion is a vital to any person's ability to not be cowed by other peoples ignorance. Racist and anti-religious sentiments are spawned by ignorance, not by education.
You have no more right to say "I'm athiest, don't teach my kid about religion" than someone else has the right to say "I'm religious, don't teach my kid about science" and so the compromise is, to teach children about BOTH.
I would like to my children to be exposed to people who are devout and people who have great knowledge of the sciences, they need to learn to respect both peoples beliefs and learn from both walks of life while at the same time being encouraged to construct their own belief system. If they do not recieve this stimulus then they may develope contempt for peoples beliefs.
And, don't compare science to religion, if science cannot explain stuff, it says "Ok, not sure about this but here's my theory" key word THEORY, i'll just paste a dictionary definition here: 6 a: a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b: an unproved assumption : conjecture
Whereas religion presents loose historical evidence or a story as FACT, another dictionary definition for fact: 5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
I intend to teach my children about all religions i have knowledge of and encourage them to develope their own knowledge because knowledge is power. But also, so are not outmanouvered in discussions such as this very one.
Another thing i'd like to point out, i think it is important that you do not underestimate the value of Muslim only schools for followers of Islam. With Muslim children growing up in a non arabic speaking/writing country, they do not pick up arabic as easily as they would if they lived in an arabic speaking country. English translations of the Qu'ran are not considered holy texts. I think that having lots of people whos lives are dominated by religion but they have little understanding of the religion and are solely relying on the few to tell them what they need to do very dangerous. This allows cultural beliefs to be promoted as religous beliefs when it should be the other way around.
So, well, if you got this far thanks for reading, just wanted to say the bottom line is, we should be promoting education not ignorance as long as that education is constructive, objective and in the childs best interests.
Rich. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 1:34:01 PM | Excellent post Rich!
Spot on and totally agree.
The bible has written facts from history that todays people write off as a story because it seems unbelievable to them.
People only believing in what they see and having no faith, thats good and well but dont wish Religion out of the curriculum just because it dont fit in with your ideas.
If todays children were to grow with no knowledge on Religion then what an ignorant society we would have. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 1:42:12 PM | ShineySock said it well before me, but just to elaborate with my own views slightly.
I would rather my children (if and when I have them) are educated with more of a base of scientific thought than religious thought. The reason for this is as follows:
In science, you are encouraged to poke as many holes in any and every belief as possible. The whole scientific process is about finding the things that don't work in the belief system and sticking an intellectual lever in there, and see what we discover when the system breaks.
In religion, you are told to accept THIS version of events, to the exclusion of all others. When the system produces contradictions we are told something along the lines of "God works in mysterious ways"
One system is open-minded, encouraging healthy debate and allowing for differences of opinion. The other is closed-minded, discouraging any independent thought or expression of disagreement from the established version of events.
Our children CAN be taught about religion without it having harmful effects. I would not for one second claim otherwise. But education (the good kind) is never about memorising facts and repeating them parrot fashion. The most effective kind of education is about teaching us how to think independently, rationally and critically about whatever subject we focus ourselves on.
Before I am accused of being in the corner of science and religion-bashing, I'll just add that I consider myself a rational empiricist who DOES believe in God (in a form) - but all my years in a Catholic school did not foster that belief. That belief came from me thinking independently about the information I had been given and studying different things, from theology to philosophy to physics.
Teach children to think for themselves, THEN teach them about the wide variety of beliefs (scientific or religious) out there. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 1:48:36 PM | There's a difference between religion and Christianity. Look at it this way, you go to a Catholic school, you learn about Catholicism only, you go to a C of E school, that's what you learn.
There's nothing open minded about teaching one version of a religion. I actually think teaching one aspect of religion makes people less tolerant. I'd rather kids were allowed to make their own minds up and at the moment they aren't. As I said, I wasn't taught about the big bang theory, I was taught about God and Jesus and that was it, no other religions.
What's the point in that? We have an ignorant society if all we teach is about Jesus and nothing else.
I don't dispute that Jesus existed but that's about as far as it goes for me. I used to be with someone who was a Catholic who believed that abortion was a sin, suicide was a sin, he was brought up to believe that people who had sex before marriage were sluts, all he had was a massive chip on his shoulder and a lot of guilt. Why? Because he was told so from a very young age. Did he have sex before marriage, yes, did he use contraception yes. Yet he took the bits of his religion he wanted to use when it suited him.
What does a five year old know about life to be told they have to believe in certain things.
The fact is most schools don't teach children about other religions, only the one they want them to believe in. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:05:48 PM |
Parents will always want the best for their children and there is not often the choice as one poster imagines.
The problem then is clearly that children are exposed to teachings their parents object to because the system is flawed and does not cater to everyone.
I stick by my opinion that offering more choice of schools and their respective religions is a better solution than cutting religion out of education altogether.
15 years ago a non-religious, "devil worshipping" kid who listened to heavy metal was regularly thrown out of RE for asking pointed questions and poking holes in biblical stories...is it ironic that he would now defend the existence of the very classes that he had such a problem with?  | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:15:50 PM | We teach children. We teach children because they are generally open to learn as opposed to the closed minded people who don't believe & therefore don't want anyone else to believe either. They demand that every adult join them in removing their children from what they don't accept. Let children learn about all things, then make their minds up later.
I was brought up in a catholic learning system, later as my non-adult brain & my own selfish, self-natured immature thinking got a control of my developing body~around 13 or so~i decided church & it's thinking wasn't for me. I wanted what I wanted. Materialism, coming out on top. All that crap from the likes of Gordon Gecko..greed is good!! I found another way back to God through spirituality. It gave me a better understanding , that far too many ignorant self-deluded people like the me that was before, of my own religion. IT was a problem because i was not living it. There's a huge difference between religion theory & religion living. That's what Christ told the leaders of religion in His day. It is not religion that is the problem it is what self serving people do with it that is the problem IMO.
As for the 2000 year figure, again ignorance of what religion teaches. My school taught me about the old testament too, that is a history book reaching far further back. The 2000 year figure is from the new testament of Christ teaching the 2 main laws, so that those who were corrupting religion, the pharisees of the day as an instance, would give more credence to what God says & not man. Christianity teaches Loving God first & your neighbour as yourself, all hangs on this.
Science and religion are not seperate in many cases and many a scientist follows religions ways. We should be careful of those who would demand that we take God away from children because Christ wants all of us to be like children, to love like children, to have faith & trust like children. He will always believe in us wether we build another tower of babel believing we need to destroy religion so we can do what the hell we like. I hope & pray we stay away from deciding we know better than God.
He restored me to sanity & enabled me to love the unlovable.   | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:18:30 PM | Teach it to people who choose to. The problem is, most people wouldn't even choose the subject. Bottom line is, a respect those who follow religion and for their own beliefs. Other than that, a don't follow it. A don't go to church.
A grew up being called a dirty orange hun proddie **stard just for supporting ma team. To me personally? religions a lot of pish  | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:19:32 PM | We teach children. We teach children because they are generally open to learn as opposed to the closed minded people who don't believe & therefore don't want anyone else to believe either.
I'm not against kids learning about faith, but to learn about it when they have the capacity to argue for or against, not at 4 or 5 years old and certainly not to be taught that there is only one God. Teach them about all faiths, not just Jesus Christ and God. I'm certainly not closed minded but I know a lot of religious people who are. By the time some people are ready to make their mind up later, they have spent years being told one way is the only way.
How does anyone on this planet know that God exists, because they were told so.
We have to live our life according to a God that we can't see, in order to become better people and have some comfort that when we die we will go to a better place.
When a member of my family died my gran converted to Catholicism, it gave her comfort, that was entirely her choice. When my mum married a Roman Catholic and wouldn't convert, her husbands dad never spoke to her again, not even at his own wifes funeral.
Too many people use religion as an excuse to say, I believe in God, I have a better way of life than you, but religion divides people. I've been given more grief in my life for being a non believer than I've ever dished out to people who are religious.
Religion and tolerance are not the same thing in my view.
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:23:20 PM | I was brought up to be a christian and chose religious education at school.
I remember my ma sending a letter of complaint that I wasnt learning anything about my own religion in those classes, it was a very multicultural school and those were the faiths mostly covered.
As an adult I despise any form of organised religion.
\/\/\/ Anarchy? | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:31:31 PM | I have no idea what it maybe, but to be honest. Lets take Catholic religion for example. I have never seen such pish in all my life. A mean Catholics cannot have sex before marriage. You go outside, try finding me a catholic person that actually abides by their religion hahahahaha  more than 3 quarters of them are gagging for it hahahahahaha | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:39:48 PM | It should be banned during normal school hours. Basic literacy is bad enough in schools these days without wasting curricula time on old historic superstitions such as the various religions. Though there are various aspects to learn from in the major organised religions, they use powerful brainwashing techniques and have been successfully used as tools of political control for millenia, the moment you allow it to be studied as 'objective' subject material for historical, phsychological, or political education it will instantly be used as a loophole by religious fanatics to push their agenda. If a school wants to teach a religion, let them set up a voluntary Sunday School class that parents can opt-in to.
Phillip. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:46:43 PM | Zeitgeist basically shows evidence that the whole Christianity was a pile of crap.
Hell, even if the world proved man kind came from evolution, they'd still refuse to disbelieve it hahahahahahahaha
edit:- On a side note, a respect people for their beliefs, it's just that me? A don't really follow it. Am open minded, is God real? Who bloody knows, but I'd never rule out Evolution, and constantly keep my eye open to religion being proven totally wrong. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:57:07 PM | | By the same token, we shouldn't be forced to learn it either. I had no choice, that is what I object to and I was only taught about Christianity, I knew from a very early age that I didn't believe in God but I was made to learn about Christianity in school. I didn't want to but I was forced to. Where is the fairness in that? | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 2:58:33 PM | Scotty, do a search and check out the creationism v evolutionsim thread... you may learn somthing!
Pauline,, it may not be fair but its what your parents chose for you so have some respect, maybe!
VVV with 72% of this country (England) classing themselfs as having an religion in the 2001 census... I fail to see that as a decline in religious beliefs but in fact that non-believers of any religions are the minority.
Pauline... there is alot of bull on this thread which is hard to believe, but will take peoples word for it as a sign of 'faith'
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 3:04:34 PM |
By the same token, we shouldn't be forced to learn it either. I had no choice, that is what I object to and I was only taught about Christianity, I knew from a very early age that I didn't believe in God but I was made to learn about Christianity in school. I didn't want to but I was forced to. Where is the fairness in that?
exactly that is why i said it should be left as an option, i do wonder how long it would survive with less people taking it up year by year | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 3:13:24 PM | Pauline,, it may not be fair but its what your parents chose for you so have some respect, maybe!
My parents didn't choose it for me, the teaching system did, I went to a non denominational school. Where I live you have 2 choices, go to a Roman Catholic school or go to a non denominational school where at that time you were not allowed to opt out of RE and you were not taught about any other religion apart from Christianity. Religion was forced on me at school not at home. My mum came from a long line of religious people but was forced to attend church and hated it and no longer believes in God and decided that if she had kids she would let them choose whether they wanted to worship.
I haven't seen my dad since I was four, so he has had no input into my life either. I do have respect for my mum, a lot of it and always have done. The only way I would have escaped being taught religion in school was if I had been taken out of the school system altogether.
I'm not quite sure how anyone could read my posts and decide that I don't respect my family just because I'm an athiest. Especially as my mum is also an athiest. School force fed me religion, my mum didn't.
I respect everyone's right to have a faith and to follow it, but I think kids should not be taught religion in schools from the age of five years old and certainly not at 15 or 16 if they have already made up their minds that religion is not for them. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/12/2009 4:15:06 PM | Do religious schools help our society to interact or should religion be separated from the educational system in this country?
My feeling is, in order to fully integrate youngsters and society, we should keep religion out of the educational system in this country.
One school system for all school age children, one uniform and one educational pathway. Simplify the system and perhaps that can simplify the issues of racism.
I did not wish to offend anyone religious or otherwise. My question was to find out if what sort of opinions there were on the forum about the issue of integration of all who live in the UK.
Whether having one a system of education which allowed no religious input, would help the issues of separation and alienation within some elements of society. Children normally have no boundaries in terms of who they will play with at a young age, ie in nursery school where there is normally no religious input. If they are allowed to continue to grow, learn and develop in schools where all children are exposed to a non religious based education pathway, where there is not a religious divide between pupils within the same geographic area, where the family's religious beliefs are separate.................. would this help or not to have a more integrated society.
I can accept the argument for educating children about the world incorporating the different cultures and elements of belief systems that these different cultures have, but not necessarily religion in the school curriculum time. The curriculum time is so precious. Personally I feel it would be more beneficial for children to have more exercise for example. | |
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