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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 4:15:37 AM | I do understand the point of view that supports choice in education. I am often devils advocate, for which I apologise, but I still feel that religion divides our young people still and after listening to current political debates on the issues in Northern Ireland I strongly feel that religion should be something that should be excluded from education. It can be taught at home/in churches. Not in schools purely on the basis of the facts, which are it divides communities so much when the religion / faith is community based.
There are so many examples of divided communities, the forum readers are intelligent enough to know where these communities in the world are so I will not spell them out.
Perhaps the way forward is to do a poll of all young people in education, but at what age one would do this from I have no idea.
Ps there have been some really articulate points put forward in this debate so thanks to every one for putting their 'tuppence worth in', and for all those who have shared their schooling experiences. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 5:29:34 AM | 'School is a twelve year jail sentence where bad habits are the only curriculum truly learned. I teach school and win awards doing it. I should know' - John Taylor Gatto - 'Dumbing Us Down'
The teaching of any system of belief, theistic or otherwise, that normalizes prejudice, exclusion and the subjugation of justifiable reason for faith is, very obviously, going to be harmful to any society and should be actively discouraged. But the bigger problem by far, as anyone familiar with the notion of Hidden Curriculum will attest to, is the institutionalization of the education of our children. If anyone is even remotely interested in how their child is educated, I suggest you look into this problem yourselves because, you'll never hear a bad word about it from the institutions that you've come to trust and rely upon. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 6:31:08 AM | message 73.
did you actually read my post? did i say they should not be taught about sex? i think not.you quote reproduction,was i talking about reproduction? i think not.
faith schools have more control over what is taught to their children and far more morals of right and wrong and what is appropiate to be taught to children and at what age.
if you want to aggrevate someone over their valid opinion about christian faith schools find someone else. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 7:06:49 AM | January, i see your point, but i believe the problems you outline stem from the kids being taught about religion in their homes and in that religion's place of worship.
These places are not regulated by the state however schools are. I'm concerned that if there was no education in schools, there would be no potential for objective, constructive education that was controlled to some degree albeit in a cumbersome bureaucratic way by the people.
I think you also missed off "Jedi" in your list of religions. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 12:28:13 PM | Yes that is a good point that at home or in churches the religions taught could divide communities further ..........
so thanks for that,
and the one I missed off the list.............
it really has been interesting to see everyones point of view. I love debates, and in this one there was not much mud slinging which is even better. In the ideal world I would like to see 'impartial religious education' but it would have to be taught by someone who does not believe I think, maybe. Tis a difficult issue and I would love to see an undivided world, one that is at peace. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 3:41:32 PM |
at home or in churches the religions taught could divide communities further ..........
Does this not depend on why the religion is taught and how people are taught to express it?
Too often it is used as another system of control , another way of making slaves, by creating the whips inside your head rather than applying them externally. Marx, though coming from an Ahrimanic viewpoint, got that part right. However he missed the point, by denying that any form of religion has a basis in personal experience.
One skilled and acuitive writer called Ray Sherwin wrote a volume called "The Book of Results". He described a set of psychological techniques for externalising and exorcising your own personal demons. The way the he kept track of what he was doing was by creating a diary that he called his book of results. He worked from the frame of reference that if every holy book was written with this idea in mind, then all of the time that you are worshiping any particular diety, you're actually communing with someone else's personal psychic demons, not your own.
A large number of these psychic entity's are specific to each different culture. The meme we call "Britishness" is specific to people who live in the UK. It can be manifested very strongly elsewhere, go to any ex-pat bar and you'll see a good localised example. But they are ALL constructs. Created by people like us over many centuries, and fueled by both the lives of martyrs that chose to die for their ideals, and the lives of the unbelievers that were killed for not following them.
There was one effective experiment that was performed using a set of chimps. Six chimps were stuck in a room with a ladder to the ceiling in the centre. When one of the chimps touched the ladder, the room was flooded with water. Afterwards when any of the chimps tried to touch the ladder, the other chimps would hit them till they stopped. Then one of the chimps was removed, and s new chimp was introduced. When the new chimp tried to touch the ladder, the other chimps attacked it. Then one of the original chimps was removed and a new chimp was introduced. When this new chimp tried to touch the ladder, all of the chimps attacked it.
Eventually none of the original chimps were in the room, but they still continued the same pattern of beating up any chimp that tried to touch the ladder, though none of them knew why...
Sadly, this is the natural order of things, we are always a slave to natural selection. The strong seek to dominate the weak and the weak seek to bring down the strong.
Yes, this has been the way things have been done for many centuries, but it doesn't mean that it's right.
We are (relatively) rational people and have the power to choose what we believe in. The understanding that that personal choice exists is not something that is taught in schools. It's not an attitude for slaves. It's not an attitude that encourages conformity.
Only slaves have to be forced to pull together, free people pull in all kinds of directions. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 4:04:43 PM | Interesting post especially the experiment of the chimps, which I have also read about. I believe religion has a large control element. It also has some excellent ethics.
The problem is that children often do not have the power of choice, they have to be empowered, and we have to be their advocates. Is teaching them religion from one bias empowering a child or are we training them to be chimps. Of course, eventually they will decided as adults what they believe in. Would it be better for the young adults in this country to be given no education of this nature, or scant but equal education about all religions, thereby informing them but not influencing their decisions. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 4:15:50 PM | Oh god (pardon the pun), I really can not wait until people open their eyes to the real world and stop brainwashing future generations with pre-emptive discriminations and narrow mindedness.
Plus the surveys claiming that "70% of people in the UK are Christian" are utter bull and biased when Church attendance levels are at an all time low and generally people are swinging towards agnosticism and other non-mainstream beliefs.
Religion is the bane and misery of humankind, please something end it now.  | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 4:16:40 PM | Interesting anecdote about the chimps. Another Musician, can you tell me where I can find some more info about this experiment?
Unfortunately, I don't think you'll ever convince the religious not to teach their children their beliefs. Many of them see it as the only way of 'saving' their children... | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/14/2009 5:09:30 PM | It's something that will eventually be bred out over generations, some cultures are a lot further ahead than others.
Everyone is talking about something that can be done NOW and have an immediate effect, but fail to see that things are changing gradually from decade to decade.
If the chimp experiement continued and new chimps were constantly introduced, one day a chimp would step on the ladder while the others were sleeping, the others would wake up and see the chimp on the ladder but dare not attack because they would then have to touch the ladder, at which point, the chimps have the oportunity to get over the fear of the ladder. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/15/2009 6:03:15 AM |
'saving' their children
pmsl...wtf? saving them from what?
I dont believe the red tops about churchs being empty because my kids school church is always rammed and I am actually off putted from going because of the lack of space to sit!
My local village church is always packed with villagers too!
Like somebody else stated, if you want rid of Religious schooling then, Easter, Pancake days(Shrove Tuesday), Ash wednesdays, Navity plays, Christmas teachings etc etc have to go too.... what a shame, children love all these festivals and celebrations.
Learning about how people of different religions celebrate also helps
children to understand a range of beliefs and cultures and
encourages them to think about the place of traditions and festivals
in their lives.
Most children will learn about festivals and celebrations associated
with Christianity and at least two of the other major religions in
Britain. For example, your child might learn about
....why the festivals of Christmas and Easter are important
....the importance of saints’ days, for example St George’s Day
....what happens at a baptism or Christian marriage service
.... the place of harvest in the Christian calendar
.... the Hindu festival of Raksha Bandhan
.... why and how Jewish people celebrate the festival of Pesach (Passover)
... the Muslim festival of Id-ul-Fitr
.... the story behind the Sikh festival of Baisakhi.
In each case, your child will probably find out about the religious
beliefs behind the festivals, and how people celebrate with special
food, clothes, stories and music.
I was talking to a client and his Meals on Wheels, on a friday always consists of Fish. This is religious and obviously alot must want to take part in that on a friday.
When you stay in Hospital, you have a Bible next to your bed.
If you want to scrap religion then getting rid of the Monarchy is the way forward. While they are head of the Church of England it's shut up and put up.
Dont like religion? well just opt your child out of the school or RE... but in my opinion, one parents prejudice against Religion is just allowing their child to miss out on important learning.
I am Roman Catholic, as are my children, but if when they are 16 or whatever, they say to me.. I want to be Muslim, Jewish, Pagan or Athiest.. then fine.. that is upto them, at least I gave them the opportunitys to learn about Religions to come to that decision. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 3/15/2009 6:21:07 AM | Religious Education is biased towards Christianity, RE should teach the majority of religions and beliefs with no bias. RE is only "important learning" if it is not brainwashing with discriminations and favouritism.
If you teach a child only Christianity, how will they react to a Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic when they are in the big wide world as an adult? People are so fearful and ignorant of one another's beliefs nowadays, it's ridiculous.
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. - Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney
...because it's so blatantly true and obvious but people choose to live in this comforting reality blinded with the religious blindfold, the problem with religion it is all open for subjective interpretations hence many different divisions within religions thus wars and many millions of people killed in the name of "a god", religious people always believe they are doing good for their "god" when in fact they are carrying out atrocious acts of evil.
If I had kids, I would want them to learn about ALL religions and beliefs, not just Christianity plus especially how historically in the past Islamic and Christian militants ethic cleansed in many European and African countries forcing people to convert with a sword in hand. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 10/30/2009 5:34:13 AM | Well, two things:
1) there is a march tomorrow in london, by Islam4uk, to advocate shariah law for the Uk and
2) the UN is now, in this very moment, discussing further legislation (and this WILL BE proper legislation) against criticism of religion.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20091022/expert-u-n-resolution-would-create-global-blasphemy-law/index.html
Soon, it will no longer be possible to criticise religion.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_en-GBGB323GB323&q=un+discuss+blasphemy+laws | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 10/30/2009 5:44:41 AM | wot if this phoney war on terror is aploy by all of them
to force us back underthe religous yolk
i could see the jews islam and the christians
all in it together
lets face it your modern politician is just a lord of the new church
i think they are desperate men with desperate plans
i think the real jihad will be in the future
and be athiests vs beleivers
and the god hating chinese will be at the forefront of it
the one nation on earth where religon is banned | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 10/30/2009 6:26:19 AM | Well, my take is that in Europe, we rightly left religious power on society behind at the beginning of this century but as we now have spent so much time making all sorts of allowances for Islam, without challenging it intellectually, we have now given it the space to bite back lawfully.
Make no mistake; it's our doing and when it will become law, we will be throwing away decades of secularism. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 10/30/2009 8:41:53 AM | Even as practising catholic, I somehow disagree with claim that religious schools are fine. When I was a kid, religious teaching somehow was a turn-off for me and I actually became a christian in my adulthood. It is sad, I know, but when children are more sensitive to things like that. Especially if they are taught by zealots! I still believe in missionary, but not in brainwashing to be honest, and I am worried about the fact that religious schools can become brainwashing facilities.
God didn't place free will to us for nothing. Spreading the gospel is important to me, but if you spread it with wrong way, by zealotry and hate towards non-christians, you do it wrong way. It should be spread by love and care. That is just my two pennies to this issue. | |
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| Religion -should it be banned from educational establishments.
Posted: 10/30/2009 3:06:32 PM | Most of the laws in this country are based on a Christian faith based tradition. It's influenced everything from employment and marriage laws to the criminal justice system.
It's helpful for children of ALL creeds therefore to understand the fundamentals of the Christian faith if they are to successfully integrate into our society and "blend" into British legal and social systems/structures as adults. (So called "honour killings" and ethnic ghettoes being extreme examples of that failure to blend in).
If I were to live in Saudi or Dubai I'd want my child to understand the basic principles of Islam. This would help him understand the culture and legal structure of that society in order to successfully function as a law abiding adult. (So no shagging on the beaches then lol!).
It's also helpful for children to learn the basics of a few other relevant (may vary from area to area) main faiths. This helps promote tolerance and understanding towards others with different faith systems.
I did my RE O level back in the 1980's and we had to study Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, and Jainism. This was at a "Church" school. My lad is 5 and has briefly looked at Jewish and Islamic cultures (Ramadan being compared to Lent for example), he's currently at a state Church School.
It's also worth remembering that young children need to given some sort of moral framework if the are not to develop into feral animals like the underclass currently wrecking so many aspects of British society. I personally have zero faith in our current crop of politicians to replace the moral framework given by a Church School with something I'd find acceptable. Right and wrong ends up a casualty of the latest trends in political correctness! At least with an established faith you can argue with clearly defined boundaries!
I'm grateful I was given sufficient grounding in the 3 R's to have been able to read various versions of the Bible, Torah and Koran as an adult. It's the basic ability to read and write that defines good education not the hymn sung in assembly every Friday morning. My father attended both Koran (elementary) and Catholic (Grammer) missionary schools in Africa and came to the same conclusions I have. It's the reading and writing wot counts in the end Sah! | |
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