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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 6:11:45 AM |
Now, this cracks me up because you don't know shit about the people pushing the carts at the grocery store. I have a friend who has been married for around 25 years and you are likely to see him pushing the cart but probably not the reason you think.
Packagedealx3, you missed the point entirely...
Pushing the grocery cart doesn't make you a woman's b*tch.
Being told what you want for dinner and speaking only when spoken to DOES.
On Topic: While men are certainly control freaks at times I think a woman's greater need for security makes her more likely to be a control freak whether she's willing to admit it or not.
I think women crave predictability in a relationship. That's not to say they want to go out to eat at the same place over and over, but they do want to be asked out on your day off if you've made a habit of doing so.
Men, however, tend to be just the opposite. Part of the attraction of seeing new women is the lack of predictability. Women look at a car and ask 'How can we make this safer, less likely to break down and leave me stranded?'. Men look at a car and ask 'If we put mini-paddles on the tires can it drive on water?'.
For better or worse, men are the drivers of change. Women keep us in check by letting us know when a change is bad in their opinion. It's a great system, but it only works when both men and women listen to each other. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independent, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 6:22:39 AM |
"these days want a man who she can mold to her own whims"
These days? What do you think the message is in ancient fairy tale about a princess kissing a frog who turns into a prince? Like all the best fairy tales, it has deep meaning, a lesson, depicting a universal situation.
Biggest mistake a woman can make is marrying a frog, or a man with some aspects that are froggy, and betting her "kiss" will tranform him into her perfect prince.
The real trap is that he is often on his best behavior in the courting stage, and will get worse after the honeymoon, not better! :)
Stax,
I agree somewhat with your statement regarding the Frog-Prince fairy tale. It is a story gleaned from German folklore by the Brothers Grimm that has taken an inappropriate foothold as the standard operating procedure of women.
I don't believe that an individual will lead a blessed life (prince or princess) by venturing out into the world with the fairy tale as an agenda. No one wants a partner that will hinder them. BUT! I do not believe circumstance has any bearing on compatibility. If it did rich people would not be divorcing.
Relationships are not about money. People have to be willing to take the time necessary to figure out or weigh the pros and cons of an individual before rushing into something.
A princess may find her frog/prince if she removed the agenda and vice versa.
How about this perspective Staz? Is the princess you are looking for today the same princess you sought when you were twenty? | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 6:24:08 AM | I'm not sure that strong, independent and outspoken men scare me...I actually like these kinds of guys because then won't cave on their position (yet, I would hope that they would be willing to consider another persons perspective). I need a strong somewhat arrogant man that will keep me in line because I can be rather outspoken and sometime need someone to patiently help me step off my position when being stubborn .
What I love about the POF forums is that people spend so much time trying to place the sexes in different categories such as "men should be men and women should be women". What the hell does that mean? I just want to be who I am and not try to be some preconcieved notition of what a woman should be. Why can't people just be people ? Just be their genuine selves........Hmmmm...there is a novel concept!  | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 6:44:24 AM | I am not single and I am not looking. I have lots of men friends and they love my honesty and I love theirs. I am very fortunate to know a lot of strong men who don't spout whiney diatribes about how great the "mans" world is because they have an education and they CAN handle the truth.
You have really irritated me with your cheap "man hater" slur when all I did was quote some rock hard statistics. Yeah, I threw in some opinions but that is what one does when analyzing the facts. Don't shoot the messenger. Do you even know what that means. Never mind. I am typing on my laptop, in bed, with my loved one snuggled up to me looking as always, VERY HAPPY to be with me. No hating going on here.
It's creeps who blame Eve and tell us women we are beneath them that will certainly get a whooping from me. Yes. So what. They deserve it. How dare they.
You can kiss up to them all you like dearie but I assure you ....that kind of man will have contempt for you in the morning.
You are obviously not at all aware of the world you live in nor yourself or most of all your motives which are transparent. Take your blinkers off.
Do you think those guys don't know what you are doing? Do you think they respect you for propping up a dying "might is right" philosophy that has almost destroyed this world? They pretend to appreciate you but they know you are betraying yourself and have the deepest contempt for you. They would never do that to themselves.
You obviously made a bad choice in your life and are out for blood. You have made a wise choice to abstain from dating. I'm sure you and all your male friends have fun shopping together and having Tupperware parties and what not. I know... it does nothing for the libido but safety is nice isn't it?
My son and I? We just head out to the lake and snare innocent little fishies. Then we bring them home (close your eyes) and disembowel them. Sometimes we cook them. Others times we eat them raw just to feel the warm blood run down our chins.
After our fishing excursions... we head to the animal shelter. We don't actually adopt pets. We're men! We just tease the puppies. "Awww! Spot. Do you want to come home with us?" Then we walk away singing "Men Men Men Men!"
As far as the stats are concerned.... they are biased. Look up the following...
The number of female teachers being accused of molesting boys (you are catching up ladies *cough* Ashton Kutcher *cough*). How about the twelve year old boy (who is probably blessed to be in the top 2% if you know what I am saying). He was molested by TWO FEMALE TEACHERS who were sharing the lad.
The female investment banker in NY (she was already a millionaire on her own merit) that married a 70 year old multimillionaire. She then divorced him and asked for +50 million in spousal support.
How about the number of women who have...
Drove their children into a lake to drown them
Left their newborn child in a dumpster
And those poor senior citizens driving behind Lorena Bobbit that fateful day. Suddenly a thud sounds as John's meat claps the windshield.....
Grandma looks at Grandpa and says...
"Did you see the size of the d*ck on that bug?" | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:09:11 AM | Msg 125 I'm referring to being gratuitously provocative without any substance or veracity. Being obnoxious as a way of asserting "power" is kind of vacuous.
As for CEO's ripping me in half, I think you kind of missed my point. I know I missed yours, because your post went right by me for the most part.
I didn't say anything about angles. About thinking from different angels. How about just thinking period. We may even agree on certain points, not that I'll ever know.
One last thing...smoking stunts your growth. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:14:27 AM |
Or are you so deep in denial you believe this was all done by those rare bad men that you are nothing like and are not responsible for.
If you want to take credit you also have to take responsibility to be respected. But I don't see any of that much. It's always some other "rare bad dude" that is nothing like you right??
Just admit your nature is not conducive to a constructive peaceful existence. Don't believe me. Watch the world news. Google a few stats. It's a mess and you blame woman and probably expect her to clean up after you to boot eh?
This planet you have been leading is a DISGRACE. YOUR LEADERSHIP IS A DISGRACE.
You have taken your power and used it like a violent dictator rather than the PARTNER you were supposed to be. Can you really be trusted with any power in or out of the home. For real. Look around and answer HONESTLY. (silence).
You should stop trying to brainwash us into believing in your fantasy world. We don't have to anymore. We can work and feed and clothe and house ourselves and we don't have to believe any more fairytales about you anymore.
Sit down and be quiet if you can't do anything constructive or say anything honest please.
You act like that and then get all high and mighty and talk down to us and assure us you have our best interests at heart. You may be on crack but I am wide awake and coherent.
What do you think we are - idiots???
That was quite the diatribe, forumologist. Now tell us how you really feel about men...
I think women crave predictability in a relationship. That's not to say they want to go out to eat at the same place over and over, but they do want to be asked out on your day off if you've made a habit of doing so.
Men, however, tend to be just the opposite. Part of the attraction of seeing new women is the lack of predictability.
I'll have to disagree with you there, DeagleNINja2. I have dated a number of woman who want anything but predictability, in my experiences.
I don't fall into the category of men who want unpredictability. I enjoy stability. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 8:39:12 AM | From the OP:
Reading the forums and posts here on PoF has shone a lot of light on something very disturbing to me.
Likewise, but not for your reasons. What I find disturbing is the amount of bashing that goes on between the sexes. The forums give the opportunity for people to state what they "really" think with virtual anonymity. I had no idea there were that many angry people wandering around - of both sexes.
Most women these days want a man who she can mold to her own whims. Any man who is independent, sticks to his opinion(s), or outspoken about an issue is "flamed"as a jerk, insensitive, uncaring,****, alpha-male, etc etc.
Mold to her own whims? What might these "whims" be? As far as anyone sticking to their own opinion and being outspoken and being flamed for it, that works with both genders in the forums as far as I've ever seen. If a person's being a jerk, they're being a jerk no matter their gender and likely deserve being flamed. You don't have to be a condescending SOB to get your point across and if you are, you get what you deserve.
In short, any man who is bold enough to act as a man is considered somehow not a prime "dateble" material. In the forums here, even some men will go as far as "play"the role of a "softie" just to please some women posters. I have also seen this play out in real world!
A man has to "act" like a man? Pray tell what are they like when not "acting". What exactly is the role of this actor? Play the role of a softie just to please some women posters? Did you ever consider that some men don't find it necessary to still bash women over the head with a club like a neanderthal? My mom always used the expression that it's far easier to attract flies with honey than vinegar. Some guys have natural born "honey" while others disguise their vinegar - and likewise with women. If someone on the forums can naturally show they're a jerk they'll attract those who like jerks - if that's classified as being strong, independent and outspoken, that doesn't scare me; rather, it tells me they're the ones who live a "scared" existence and are full of false bravado. Conversely, if someone shows they have a softer side, particularly a man, that tells me he's/she's not a scared individual - he has the jam to show it and not hide behind false bravado. Because someone has a soft side, doesn't mean that's the only side they have. You can be soft and macho as a man as much as you can be strong/independent and soft as a woman. It's the totally one dimensional either way where there's a problem.
So now tell me, what kind of a man do you want? Why cant we let men be men and we concentrate of us being women (not referring to "being in the kitchen etc etc "! )
I want a man who doesn't feel he has to "play a role". Whether it's men or women, I want people to be who they are and not feel they have to fit into some cut and dried gender box. I'll sort out if the sum of their parts is in synch with my own personality, not because they are conforming to some preconceived, misguided stereotype. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 8:47:26 AM | We're not letting men be men??? Oh no... Who says we have any influence at all never mind "letting" them be whoever they wanna be...
Of course we have influence! Why have we forgotten our power? We have HUGE power over men, HUGE! (said like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman when she went back to the store on Rodeo Drive that had refused to serve her.) In my not so humble opinion a woman who does not fully comprehend and take responsibility for her power to effect a man is one who is unable to achieve intimacy with one. When a man engages with a female on anything more than a casual level he does indeed leave himself open to her power and becomes vulnerable. Just as we demand that men be responsible for their power to effect us I do think it is our responsibility to be careful with our power to effect them.
Without that caution we are dangerous and without awareness that we do indeed need to be cautious we are doubly dangerous. Men are not impervious, impenetrable objects that we can hurl our power at however we please. I think it's an antiquated and sexist belief to think that maleness or masculinity or power are somehow mystically protected from uncontrolled and unconscious feminine potency.
When I feel like molding I buy playdoh.
I prefer my men "ready-made" and not in need of molding.
This was really interesting too. I used to think the same thing, but I've learned that men are not completed works of art waiting to adorn me and please me. They are projects too. I can invest in them. I can help them become the man they want to be. I can witness them fall on their faces and offer them a hand up and say "it'll be alright, together we can fix it" and allow my archetypal mother out for a bit and care for them in exchange for all the strength and tenderness and loyalty and damned hard work they provide for me. I just have to remember that after I've given him that hand up I have to dive for the bottom again while he does that feline move of "What? I didn't fall off that windowsill. I meant to do that" with his ears all flattened and his pride a little injured.
I find a lot of the attitudes toward men and toward relationships here in the forums to be very self-defeating and based on faulty information, at least information that's contrary to what I've observed and experienced. Some men suck, sure, so do some apples, some Fords, some houses, some books and some movies. Pay your six bucks, your sixty bucks, your sixty thousand bucks, your six hundred thousand bucks, you might pull a gem. And if you don't? If he's just ordinary? Just say "it's ok, we can fix it" and then dive for the bottom. With both of you working at it he can become incredibly extraordinary. Just as you want him to improve upon you, there's no harm in working together to improve upon him. Just as you want that action taken with care and attention to detail and consistency and perhaps great fanfare, bruhaha and ritual, perhaps he wants it done subtly and with great praise and instantly forgetting when he fails. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 9:12:03 AM | Good googlie mooglie! I love me some Canada!
O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
Of course we have influence! Why have we forgotten our power? We have HUGE power over men, HUGE! (said like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman when she went back to the store on Rodeo Drive that had refused to serve her.) In my not so humble opinion a woman who does not fully comprehend and take responsibility for her power to effect a man is one who is unable to achieve intimacy with one. When a man engages with a female on anything more than a casual level he does indeed leave himself open to her power and becomes vulnerable. Just as we demand that men be responsible for their power to effect us I do think it is our responsibility to be careful with our power to effect them.
Without that caution we are dangerous and without awareness that we do indeed need to be cautious we are doubly dangerous. Men are not impervious, impenetrable objects that we can hurl our power at however we please. I think it's an antiquated and sexist belief to think that maleness or masculinity or power are somehow mystically protected from uncontrolled and unconscious feminine potency.
Elegantly stated! | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 9:30:59 AM | In my younger days I thought I could change a man. I no longer think that way. Just like I know I will not change unless I am compelled to do so on my own, I should not expect that from anyone else. Lesson learned.
Give me a man's man, one who knows how to check his car for oil and other liquids, one who is not afraid to get his hands dirty, will speak his mind and not cow-tow to me and actually challenge my way of thinking and I will like him just fine. Throw in there a bit of an outdoorsman, who knows how to read a compass and survive in the woods overnight with no cell phone and electricity, and I am going to go nuts for him. If he is willing to debate issues with an open mind, while explaining his thoughts without degrading me...well, I just may have to kidnap him and keep him locked in my basement. YUM!
OP, some of the younger ladies likely do fall into the things you speak of...but as we get older I think us women do come to appreciate the differences in men, and realize they would not change a thing about strong, independant and outspoken men. Rude men, or men with attitude problems are everywhere, and fall into every category, as do rude and nasty women. They do deserve the flaming they get.
Some posters here have been hurt big time by thier previous relationships, and really, I just take thier posts about 'all women' or 'all men' with a grain of salt. In time, after they heal, if they look back at thier own posts, I would hope they can see progress in thier journey to heal.
I enjoy the company of men. Strong independant and outspoken men seem hard to come by, and do not scare me in the least. I say 'bring it'! | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 9:49:33 AM | I have to say this is an excellent thread... it's causing all the Misandrists and Manipulators to reveal their true nature so that guys like me can avoid them.
There is a big difference between a woman who is strong and a Misandrist.
A woman who is strong can handle reasoned opposing views and can discuss it without getting abusive.
A misandrist on the other hand gets abusive and uses put-downs.
And to all the people who have the view that guys need to be "fixed"... I have to ask, what makes you so perfect? | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 9:51:22 AM |
I'll have to disagree with you there, DeagleNINja2. I have dated a number of woman who want anything but predictability, in my experiences.
I don't fall into the category of men who want unpredictability. I enjoy stability.
Fair enough verityone, but I would like to point out that I'm talking about relationships while you are talking about dating.
I too enjoy stability, who doesn't?
But stability and predictability are not the same thing. Just because there's money in the bank and the bills are paid on time doesn't mean you always have to have sex in the bedroom. Or just because it's Friday night doesn't mean you both have to go get italian take-out, yanno?
I think it's safe to say men get restless easier than women do. Women have come to see this need for variety as a fear of commitment, because frankly many men don't try to make them understand and instead just find a new girl. Personally, the thought of having sex with one good woman my entire life doesn't send a single shiver up my spine. It's the thought that every day of every week, week after week, year after year, is going to be exactly the same that has me checking for the exits.  | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 10:19:46 AM | Mafiachix: Its very obvious that you didn't read her post Or didn't understand it. Its her personal observation. And for you to jump in to "flame" her sounds very immature of you.
Sir:
With all due respect to forum ettiquette~ if you do not see the humor [read: not getting your post] or reason for *ahem* scolding like a child] I'm sorry~ perhaps our wavelength has crossed. This is the internet~ be that as it may.
I didn't say the OP was mentally challenged. However~ from my vantage point [which perception is subjective to each poster] it came off differently. The topic was vague within my understanding. Does this make any sense, or is it too Shakesperian for you to comprehend? This is BASIC English. Enough of this ghetto fabulous bullshit.
Being from the USA~ we have freedom of speech. If in the event~ my verbiage or "flaming" as you so [from your perspective] put it, was not to your satisfaction, I'll let you know NOW~ I really don't give a flip what you think. *yawn*
Carry on. Some of the replies in this thread were interesting  | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 3:53:54 PM | Bodypro...All is peace. You sound like a good guy. Save your chivalry for a woman who deserves it. Think of it as a precious resource. Just my thoughts...
Ah...the smoking. I started after I finished growing, and I guess I'm at the age now that I'm more concerned about growing "horizontally" so to speak. Smoking is on the list of vices I need to address, somewhere below my "systematic abuse of women." He...he...he...
Hope all is well. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 4:06:48 PM | So now tell me, what kind of a man do you want? Why cant we let men be men and we concentrate of us being women (not referring to "being in the kitchen etc etc "! )
Well OP, although I found post #1 to be a sweeping overgeneralization, I wanted to respond to this portion anyway. Personally? I am the "being in the kitchen" type of woman ~ I stopped apologizing for that years ago. What else does that mean to me? I believe wholeheartedly to traditional gender roles and it's something that some of us "get" and many more don't. What do I want from a man? Well, he could actually look like his pics if we're talking about online meetings.  Otherwise? He just needs to be alpha enough to respect that I'm not (in romantic relationships that is.) JMO  | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 4:54:30 PM | Jonnibravo
Nowhere did I say women should lead. Don't misquote me.
Leadership of the world is seated in government, commerce, law, banking, medicine etc. Women are entering these areas slowly in a few countries but intil recently we were excluded so....it's a mans world.
I said we were supposed to be PARTNERS. Something we can't have when men like pplrfreaks says women aren't capable because we are weak like EVE. That is the oldest put down line in the book (no pun intended). That is a 2000 year old "man made" excuse to denigrade and exclude 50% of the population from 100 of the decisions. It has created an unhealthy imbalance.
Partnership requires we have a say in the world. It means men must collaborate and SHARE power.
Yes I hold men responsible for the way the world is because almost every position of power where choices are made in the world is (and with very very few exceptions) always has been held by men. Commerce, politics, medicine, banking and higher education etc. Women only very recently are starting to rise to the top in those areas that control the world so yes I hold men responsible because it's a world so far run by men. Men have been leading - making all the big decisions. Who else could be responsible?
As for women ruling. That's just another extreme that would also be unhealthy.
It's too late to deny that we are moving towards a more egalitarian system of leadership that includes everyone, not just men. We are supposed to be PARTNERS so that finally there is BALANCE in decisionmaking.
It's obvious there are lots of people both men and women who don't want that. Women who want men to take all the responsibility and men who want all the control.
However, the world has already left that behind. Whether you like it or not.....we are evolving. Adapt or get left behind..........
Humans love to quote the survival of the fittest philosophy but in fact, the ability to adapt and collaborate is a much better indicator of suvival throughout almost all higher and many simpler species. | |
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