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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 5:56:45 PM | Forumologist,
Actually I agree with you to a certain extent. But I wonder if we ever will attain a completely "sex blind" society. Men are not simply women with more muscle mass and "exterior plumbing." Of course you can turn this around and make the opposite statement with women as the subject. My point is that there are fundamental differences in the way men and women think. Men and women view and manipulate power differently, and have profoundly different attitudes towards conflict. Neither is "better" than the other. They are simply different.
I can give you an example from my experience, and please do not view this as self-promotion. I would say that nearly half my office are women. I practice law. For a time I was one of only a few males in my office. My office has many different practice areas -- ranging from the highly technical where conflict is the most remote, to enforcement where conflict is at the forefront.
Can you guess where my boss -- who was a woman -- placed me? The client wanted me in enforcement, because I had what the client termed euphemistically as "room presence." I had hoped to branch out into different practice areas, because conflict can prove draining after a while. I wanted to spend more time with my children, and have greater "emotional availability." But did I have a choice in the matter? The client always gets what he wants.
That is life, and life can be harsh at times. When I thought about it a bit -- and realized that all of the people across the table from me were men -- I found it hard to blame the client. Sometimes you have to accept the cards dealt to you.
I am not saying this is true in all instances. It is simply that I think we will never achieve a completely "sex blind" society. I like strong women, and it really is not about strength at all. There are many different types of strength. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 5:57:47 PM |
As for women ruling. That's just another extreme that would also be unhealthy.
Uhhhh....wait a minute here...
So what was the point to your blistering diatribe in post #115 where you stated:
It's a man's world and you are leading us to RUIN. This is where men have led us.
So according to you, it would be just as unhealthy if women ruled. If that is your position, then logically, it's not the gender being in charge, that is the cause of the ills of the world.
N'est pas?...
However, the world has already left that behind. Whether you like it or not.....we are evolving. Adapt or get left behind..........
That's an interesting quote. I also have an interesting quote:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."
George Bernard Shaw | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 6:09:56 PM | Oh man, can I ever relate to this one.
What kind of man do I want?
~I want a man that will not put me down for my accomplishments or education simply because he hasn't experienced them. (I've been taught how to fly a plane and the men I've dated had the same choice in their lives and didn't take it.) I'm now learning how to fly a bigger plane...please fasten your seat belts ladies and gentlemen and just enjoy the ride. lol
~I want a man to recognize my passions and be interested in them..not just interrupt me when I'm in the middle of trying to have an intelligent conversation with him.
~I want a man to take care of me and my cats. (All 82 of em') (I can do it myself just fine, but I need to know he will step up to the plate and take it from there if need be..)
~I want a man that I can cherish for the rest of my life and will do the same for me.
That's all I've got right now.
Sans | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:28:54 PM | This thread was fabulous, I couldn't stop reading. Very entertaining, informative, insightful and Bullsh1t!!
First we describe men like they were that guy from Nat'l Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. You know the neighbor of Chevy Chase. How what's her name slugs him when he won't stand up for her.
Next we have lemming patrol on here, strong, intelligent whatever male, yeah I'll take one of those for 3 pages. Again BS, after 6897 threads about "he wants sex by the 3rd date", "he doesn't want to commit", "all the guys I meet look ancient", his idea of a relationship is only for sex","kisses negioated before the first date", etc, etc, etc, etc. Suppose mister strong intelligent opinionated alpha male wants those things? The same women would be saying "kick him to the curb"
Yeah I gotta agree men have fuvked up alot of things. Wars, disease, pestulence it's all our fault. Although Helen of Troy did start that one, never mind. Yeah and the animal thing I guess we're just bruts. Oh wait, just one question for the ladies? What kills more animals than anything else? YES, experiments for your make up!! Gee no one brought that up in the diatribe.
Finally the thread turned whiney at the end with women modifying their positions. Face it, women do control or try to with men. They marry, they plan when to get pregnant(their time frame usually), then we have to get a house, apartments aren't good enough. Dishwasher, clothes washers, china settings. Frankly it does make it better to live that way, most men would buy throw away plastic plates and reuse them. But please don't tell me women don't want to highly influence decisions, you wouldn't want an independant, strong man who might interfere. Maybe a part time independent man.
As for the rest who cares!!!!!!!! Man wants woman, woman wants man, so the saga will continue.
I am that indpendant, opinionated, alpha male, so I spoke my mind, and even if you don't like it, it was the truth. Bob | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 7:47:21 PM |
I am that indpendant, opinionated, alpha male, so I spoke my mind, and even if you don't like it, it was the truth. Bob
Just the perfect man...stay the way you are.
I like your type...you can speak up all you want...be opinionated...fart, drink beer, and swear....As long as you treat me like a lady and respect me in the morning! | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 8:33:46 PM | JonniBravo
Thanks for thoughtful reply but you said something about a gender blind society.
No way am I giving up nail polish, heels and skirts. Never ever. I will never look like a man nor do I want to be like one.
I don't want an effeminate man either.
Nor do I want a contemptuous bully looking down his nose at me.
You say men and women think differently.
People think differently and are shaped by society, conditioning and their choices and experience.
The differences, when UNITED as a TEAM create BALANCE.
We have never tried that but all I'm saying is the old ways didn't work so we MAYBE should try something radical like being CIVILISED and RESPECTFUL of the differences and realise no one person or gender or creed of philosphy has all the answers.
People are so used to a competitive hierarchy they don't know how to be collaborative or work as teams.
I lead technical teams where we have team members each with their own specialty of expertise. I say I lead but I don't in the traditional sense. Nobody really leads. Not even me. I simply facilitate common sense being able to be heard and the best ideas being given the freedom and the voice to PREVAIL. No ego trippers allowed and nobody is allowed to dominate anyone. We all get our opinions heard. It works.
This planet has never really been about teamwork. It's been about masters and slaves in segments of society. I don't believe that has worked well and it's over now anyway. Humans are evolving to much more sophisticated ways of making progress. Neanderthals that thump people over the head to get their way are on the fringe of progressive society. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 8:38:37 PM | verityone
why do you think the only alternative to the extreme of men holding all the power is the extreme opposite - women ruling
what about PARTNERSHIP instead of master slave
what about teamwork and collaboration
why can't you imagine a middle ground
why does it have to be one extreme or the other????????????
You assume too much about what I said
????????????
If you ask me, what some men are really afraid of is that women will gain power and treat them just as badly as they treated us - I hope not but I wouldn't be surprised
It would help if men stopped this "I am your lord and master and superior to you therefore you will submit to me" bullshit.
It would also help if women stopped acting like "I can control men with my pussy" bullcrap too. How degrading that women are still using the only thing they had before we had the vote and jobs. Pathetic.
Anyway, men can manipulate with sex just as well as women so pfft - I think women greatly overrate their sexual power and greatly underrate mens. Once women can afford to objectify men believe me men will fill the gap just the way women did. Actually I already see that happening. I know lots of wealthy, healthy single career women and believe me they objectify men just the same as men do to women so - we're even on that score. These are women who don't need a meal ticket of course. Then it's a whole different ballgame. One I don't play.
How about using your mind, creativity, conscience and personality to attract someone. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 8:58:28 PM | forumologist...
If you ask me, what some men are really afraid of is that women will gain power and treat them just as badly as they treated us - I hope not but I wouldn't be surprised
It would help if men stopped this "I am your lord and master and superior to you therefore you will submit to me" bullshit.
It would also help if women stopped acting like "I can control men with my ****" bullcrap too. How degrading that women are still using the only thing they had before we had the vote and jobs. Pathetic.
Couldn't have said better....
I think the planet earth is big enough for both genders to have an "equality of opportunity".
But...we are different genders and I happen to like the way our genders took thousands of years to evolve to the perfect "us."
Now...we have to just appreciate the perfect differences of "us." | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/24/2009 10:42:32 PM | verityone
why do you think the only alternative to the extreme of men holding all the power is the extreme opposite - women ruling
I never implied anything resembling that.
what about PARTNERSHIP instead of master slave
Well, I think that the master/slave analogy is waaaaay overboard here. But in response to your questions about partnership, there are practical, sociological and psychological reasons where a structure of hierarchy is necessary in order to have the best odds at positive results. It's not just with humans, it exists in the animal kingdom as well.
There are reasons why the mailboy doesn't run the corporation, and why Generals don't dig foxholes. They are leaders of a team, because otherwise, the team is liable to behave like a herd. Even the most primitive cultures rely on this hierarchy model for the simple reason that it is the most productive system (taking into accounts human nature).
what about teamwork and collaboration
There is teamwork and collaboration in a hierarchy model. But it does lessen as you approach the highest levels, for practical reasons.
If you ask me, what some men are really afraid of is that women will gain power and treat them just as badly as they treated us
Ok, that sounds like you and every other woman out there has a chip on their shoulder.
I can tell you, as a guy, although I know that women with chips on their shoulders' exist, I dismiss them and put them into a different category, as an individual, not as a "woman" with a chip on their shoulder. It's the sentiment and behaviour that I see, not the gender. I simply don't give haters the time of day. Don't care if they have a pee pee, or a woo woo...
It would help if men stopped this "I am your lord and master and superior to you therefore you will submit to me" bullshit.
What percentage of men in (for the sake of this discussion) North America are guilty of anything that extreme?
It would also help if women stopped acting like "I can control men with my ****" bullcrap too.
I agree. And this is hardly an extreme example. There are woman that will actually post that kind of delusional power trip right here in these forums.
I had only ever experienced that in one relationship I had with a girl when I was 23. We had gotten into a disagreement over some silly thing about a TV show we were watching. She had gotten really upset because it had to do with guys and girls and relationships, and she was being very pro "girl" power.
In order to punctuate her point she told me that it would be a long time before I would get "laid" again. My response was "beg your pardon?" She repeated that it would be a long time before I would ever get laid again. I asked "Are you sure?" She said "Trust me, I'm sure. It'll be a really long time!"
I asked her to hand me the phone. She quietly handed me the phone. As I began to dial, she asked why I wanted to use the phone. My response was simply that I wanted to check on something.
So I checked.
The phone call was to a girl that I had dated a while back, who was at home, with no plans for that evening, so I offered to come over, and she accepted. Turns out, my recently former girlfriend was wrong about when I'd get laid again...
True story.
But honestly, apart from her, I've never been in a relationship with any woman that pulled anything remotely similar to that stunt.
Anyway, men can manipulate with sex just as well as women so pfft - I think women greatly overrate their sexual power and greatly underrate mens. Once women can afford to objectify men believe me men will fill the gap just the way women did. Actually I already see that happening. I know lots of wealthy, healthy single career women and believe me they objectify men just the same as men do to women so - we're even on that score.
Agreed.
Ok, so now having said all that you've said in this latest post of yours, there is a big disconnect to me, and I'm sure, a lot of others reading this thread, between this post, and your posts # 115 and 117, which baffles me a bit....and I have a hard time overlooking.....
Maybe time to reconsider your perspective on "men" a bit?... | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 1:26:22 AM | I won't lie, I only read about 4% of the posts in this thread but I'll throw my 2.9¢ in anyway.
I believe the exact opposite to be true. Women will always prefer a strong, independent, outspoken man who is on his own path in life. The problem is they constantly test his integrity and many men eventually fail the test and get thrown to the curb.
The OP is referring to why masculine men can't match with masculine women and the answer is fairly simple. Men and women need to match their masculine/feminine polarities in order to form mutually enjoyable relationships. A masculine man can't be with a masculine woman and a feminie woman can't be with a masculine man. A man who is an even mix of masculine and feminine CAN be with a woman who is is evenly masculine and feminine but the relationship will always seem dull and without a spark.
The best relationships are made up of two polar opposites of masculinity and femininity. For more about understanding your polarity I recommend reading The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida. Despite the title, it is actually written for those who wish to understand and develop their masculine core which can be man or woman, straight or gay. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 3:35:03 AM | How about this one?
Most women hate men who are TRYING TO HARD to be strong, independent and outspoken. Trying to be alpha.
These are the men who swagger in wearing tough clothes, dress up like some example of tough man, and think their wise-cracks are attractive. Most of them "cloak" themselves in "badboy" persona to disguise their non-confidence in themselves as a real man and are beset with insecurities.
When it comes to an intelligent debate with them on something, they right away get defensive...then go from passive to aggressive....in 90 seconds....and take a woman down with name-calling and insults. Result? Nothing intelligent came out of his mouth, but his words and actions tell a woman very loud and clear that this man is very insecure. Does that make her respect him? Nope. Some evolutionary epiphany seeps into her brain and she knows that he is not strong enough to be protective of her. In fact, he's all about control over women and children...but doesn't have the manliness to face other alpha men or issues that a truly strong man can deal with.
A truly strong man is a man who loves women, finds them truly fascinating in all of their guises, doesn't get flared up if she speaks her mind, loves her intelligence, and is there to support her in every way possible. He is also truly strong, independent and outspoken when needed...only when it's needed. Not outspoken to be a strutting wanna be male peacock. A strong man also kisses old women on the cheek, loves babies and takes great joy in the warmth of the gentler sex....because he knows how to treat a woman well. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 5:44:54 AM | Daisy,
Blustery, boisterous, matcho, metro, man-hating, fema-nazi, ad nauseum...all describe the extremisms ,of which, I think mask some underlying issue...whether it be man or woman. (still trying to figure out what exactly metro implies...lol)
A woman or a man can be strong willed without imposing their will on the "other" in order to control the "other"....compassion can be seen as weak by the "other" or for what it is....compassion....sensitive....is so feminine.....not...it is the caring that a "person" feels to an issue or other "person"
Hey, some will gravitate to the extreme when searching for the "other"...that's their deal....
Me, I gravitate to women who have a mind of their own...and expect me to have one!too.
Daisy we think alike.
Irish | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 6:51:14 AM | Yannow, I tried to stay out of this thread, my 2 or was it 3 postings were pretty much enough given the fact that people have their views on this issue and there is not one single thing in this thread that is going to change anyone's mind. Then we encounter the posting of the freakman and yannow, I have no problem getting out of the way, hell I would like a very nice vacation from taking care of myself and everybody else. The problem is that many men b!tch about women stealing their balls and all this b.s. and it is like hellooo, you choose the people you are with and you surrendered your balls, take responsibility for it. Let me open with nobody held a gun to Adam's head either, hellooo, they both bit from the forbidden fruit, doesn't really matter who took the first bite.
Lead when I (the woman) want and need you (the man) to do so until then stay the hell out of my (the woman) way, I am an independent woman. Even though you (the man) may witness me screwing something up that you (the man) will eventually have to reconcile my (the woman) error, you (the man) have no right to to speak up. You (the man) have no power over me (the woman) because I (the woman) am independent.
Interesting the number of messes I cleaned up after my husband. Yes, I can take care of myself but somehow after we were married, everything indoors became my responsibility. Guess when the X decided to help, when I was standing under a ceiling fan installing it and realized halfway through that it was too heavy for me to do myself. My aging father couldn't help and I was told that I did it on purpose, interrupted his lawn mowing while I stood there holding up the half-installed ceiling fan (yup I had planned that one for weeks). In installed the other three fans myself, repaired sheet rock, replaced window panes, many hours f struggling with things before I learned how to use a drill. I also discovered if I injured myself requiring stitches he would help with whatever I had injured myself doing. I make decisions about the kids without consulting him because he doesn't care and would have no logical input were he asked. Why pray tell was the X like this?
Because he is one of those guys that would use the Bible verse you quoted in exactly the way it was not meant to be. The world was supposed to revolve around him because he was a man. I was supposed to earn a living, clean the house, take care of the kids, make sure there was a hot meal on the table when I didn't know he was on his way home and I was apparently also supposed to do all this without actually spening time on it because I was to be available to talk to him on the whim he might want to do that and I was also supposed to I think lock the children in a closet so that I could be swinging from the chandelier 24/7.
The really sad and stupid part, I spent years trying to be the woman I was "supposed" to be while he never gave any thought to the man, husband or father that he was. And I imagine he would probably be quick to say I stuck his balls in a jar because I can survive without him and managed at least to hover above doormat status.
As for my and many other women's ridiculous wants, the majority of women I know/meet want a man that will treat them with respect and kindness. I want someone walking next to me that doesn't think it is beneath him to help me whether I need it or not.
Be a man, but know what it is. It does not require announcements or putting others down or needing to always feel superior. Women don't need to "do" or not do anything to make a man feel like he is a man. He either gets it or he put his in a jar himself a long time ago by preferring to whine about why he is emasculated. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 7:58:43 AM | Most of them "cloak" themselves in "badboy" persona to disguise their non-confidence in themselves as a real man and are beset with insecurities.
Many men"cloak" themselves in "badboy" persona because THAT'S WHAT WOMEN GO FOR... time after time after time...
If we're gonna go by what your definition of "real" is, then a "real" woman would be smart enough to figure out that going for the "badboy" is not the best choice to make...
A truly strong man is a man who loves women, finds them truly fascinating in all of their guises, doesn't get flared up if she speaks her mind, loves her intelligence, and is there to support her in every way possible.
You didn't describe a Real Man, you've described a Real Doormat.
A REAL man WILL get flared up if it's crap coming out of her mouth when she speaks her mind...
A REAL man will stand up and not back down to her when she gets PETULANT for not getting her way.
A REAL man will love her intelligence but won't tolerate it if she's being stupid.
A REAL man WON'T just blindly go along with whatever she says and support her if what she says or does is moronic. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 8:22:13 AM | A truly strong man is a man who loves women, finds them truly fascinating in all of their guises, doesn't get flared up if she speaks her mind, loves her intelligence, and is there to support her in every way possible. He is also truly strong, independent and outspoken when needed...only when it's needed. Not outspoken to be a strutting wanna be male peacock. A strong man also kisses old women on the cheek, loves babies and takes great joy in the warmth of the gentler sex....because he knows how to treat a woman well.
^^^ Bravo! And, a TRULY secure man admires a woman that served and sacrificed for your freedom and country! Yeah - I'm talking to you Weak_Guy, I mean Jeep_Guy!  | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 8:49:48 AM |
............. SARA PALIN WHERE ARE YOU !!!!
NOW THATS A REAL WOMAN..
Oh...GAWD...Jeep_guy... Palin was an absolute "Female Tool"... a total moron. McCain would have been waay better off with Condoleeza Rice... or a reasonable facsimile of her.
Your post started out alright... but the rest is an Embarrassment.
And BTW... Plenty of Liberals stand up for themselves and are outspoken... I'm one of them.
And I've met plenty of "conservative" wimps in my time too.
Being outspoken or being a wimp cuts across all political stripes.
It is embarrassingly stupid of you not to realize that. | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 9:00:01 AM | Ya know posters,
I find that men and women of extreme opinions...polarized sexist views...are just extreme....and dragging gingoism into the fray is just one more way of putting down another. Men decided in America not to allow "their" women into combat....yet, that man, now that it's convinient, allows women into non-combat...combat...how ridiculuos...
Yet, some women...when a man has the strength of conviction, will, integrity...condecendingly call that man a womanizer...without the knowledge of his thoughts...
So sad...too bad...extremism is just....extreme
jmo,
Irish | |
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| Why do Strong, Independant, and Outspoken MEN scare the hell out of the modern-day woman?
Posted: 3/25/2009 9:07:37 AM | Can I add a postscript to my previous post?
A real man remembers his marriage vows and lives by them. (There is NOTHING about control in them). He doesn't desert his wife and children in rough times.
You know, Irish...
Just the way you have been throughout your posts, how you have handled some of the darndest issues on here...with your wisdom, your humour and your compassion has shown me...and other women, too...that you are truly a strong, independently thinking and very nicely outspoken man.
You are what is a rare thing on here. It is called a real man. Any woman would be honoured to get to know you more....and she would respect you immensely.
Yes...we do think alike....
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