| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/1/2009 2:06:48 PM |
Whichever way we look at it, the EU has failed to unite the people's of Europe and instead has sent it spiralling toward it's destruction, as a result of Liberalism, careless economics and relatively unlimited immigration.
spiralling towards its destruction? Obviously no-one knows what will happen in the future, but Europes history is full of conflicts - Europe must be currently as peaceful and stable as it has ever been, surely? arguments about who makes the laws and how many immigrants are being let in are fairly minor compared to past issues!! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 1:03:35 AM |
Obviously no-one knows what will happen in the future, but Europes history is full of conflicts - Europe must be currently as peaceful and stable as it has ever been, surely
And that has nothing to do with the EU!
arguments about who makes the laws and how many immigrants are being let in are fairly minor compared to past issues!!
But such arguments are relevant to TODAY, not the past.
70 years ago, a war was started to rid Europe of an unwanted dictatorship - hopefully, the EU will implode before such drastic action is need to restore democracy to the peoples of Europe. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 2:12:12 AM |
And that has nothing to do with the EU!
of course it does. Look at the balkans and other parts of Eastern Europe. The EU has helped these countries gain independance after long periods of occupation and conflict and helped these countries gain stability. All the other countries of the region are desperate to join in order to gain the same protection.
70 years ago, a war was started to rid Europe of an unwanted dictatorship - hopefully, the EU will implode before such drastic action is need to restore democracy to the peoples of Europe.
I think you should speak to someone who lived under one of these past dictatorships and then you might realise how ludicrous your comparison is. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 2:21:41 AM |
of course it does. Look at the balkans and other parts of Eastern Europe. The EU has helped these countries gain independance after long periods of occupation and conflict and helped these countries gain stability. All the other countries of the region are desperate to join in order to gain the same protection.
Yes, independence from yet another unwanted dictatorship!
And what part did the EU play in the fall of communism? None!
I think you should speak to someone who lived under one of these past dictatorships and then you might realise how ludicrous your comparison is.
The comparison I made with regard to democracy is entirely justified. Besides, millions of those under Nazi occupation were entirely safe as long as they didn't upset the situation. I don't recall any systematic attempt to kill every Frenchman, Norwegian, Dane, etc. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 2:33:37 AM |
The comparison I made with regard to democracy is entirely justified
No it isn't!
The EU could be more democratic, yes - but every general election we can vote to leave the EU, we also vote for our MEP's.
Did the people under the regimes you compare it to have a vote?
millions of those under Nazi occupation were entirely safe as long as they didn't upset the situation
and because many of them weren't actually at risk of being killed, you think its a comparable situation to Europe today?! Peoples ENTIRE LIVES were controlled even if their lives weren't directly at risk! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 3:11:42 AM |
but every general election we can vote to leave the EU
No, the option isn't available.
We may vote for parties that would take us out of the EU, but they aren't able to take us out unless the EU lets us. Did you read MSG 275? I know that many europhiles won't like its contents, because it contains the following fact:
"the democratically elected government of this country produced a law which was unenforceable until sanctioned by the EU"
If a government of this country wanted to leave the EU, it would have to revoke the European Communities Act of 1972, among others. If the EU didn't sanction that, then it wouldn't be allowed to happen.
So, the EU has the final say on the matter, not the people of this country ........sorry!
we also vote for our MEP's.
A token gesture.......the MEP's have no say over what laws are passed. They may delay them, but the Commmission always gets its way. The Commission is unelected, btw.....
and because many of them weren't actually at risk of being killed, you think its a comparable situation to Europe today?!
I was making the point that those under Nazi occupation enjoyed the same level of democracy that the people of Euriope do today - it was YOU who raised the matter of how they were being treated, not me.
HTH | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 3:13:19 AM | millions of those under Nazi occupation were entirely safe as long as they didn't upset the situation
Mind you, there was the minor matter of being tortured and killed if they did 'upset the situation' | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 3:29:10 AM |
So, the EU has the final say on the matter, not the people of this country
Maybe officially, but can you really imagine a country wanting to leave and it not being allowed to?!
those under Nazi occupation enjoyed the same level of democracy that the people of Euriope do today
but they clearly didn't! those under nazi occupation were being ruled by a foreign country which invaded them!! The EU is not a foreign country, it is an organisation run equally by all the countries who are members! and our democratically elected government signed up to it. You may want more of a say, i.e. a referendum but you've already had far more of a say than those people did!
At the end of the day, there are aspects of the way the EU is run that are not very democratic, but all national governments in the EU are democratic and effectively we vote on EU matters via them. If people don't like it enough to want to leave, they will vote for a government that will take them out of the EU. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 3:41:46 AM |
Maybe officially
You mean 'Yes'?
Thanks!
you really imagine a country wanting to leave and it not being allowed to?
I don't need to imagine it. As the law stands, a country would not be able to leave the EU unless the EU let it.
At the end of the day, there are aspects of the way the EU is run that are not very democratic, but all national governments in the EU are democratic and effectively we vote on EU matters via them.
No we don't!
You already admitted that the EU could be more democratic.
those under nazi occupation were being ruled by a foreign country which invaded them
The circumstances as to how each dictatorship arose are irrelevant to the discussion. The fact is that the people of France had as much say over their laws under the Nazis as they do under the EU -none!
The EU is not a foreign country, it is an organisation run equally by all the countries who are members!
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 4:05:30 AM | As the law stands, a country would not be able to leave the EU unless the EU let it.
I accept that. What I am saying is that the idea of the EU not letting it, is ludicrous.
You already admitted that the EU could be more democratic.
I have. I'm probably coming across as the EU's biggest fan - I'm not. While I believe its in our best interest to be in it, it needs a lot of reform. I've never said its not without many faults.
The fact is that the people of France had as much say over their laws under the Nazis as they do under the EU -none!
Thats not a fact, that is ridiculous!
I know the likes of the Sun tend to portray the EU as if it is a foreign country ruling over us (with the French and Germans in charge and Britain getting no say whatsoever!) but I find it incredible that someone of your intelligence goes along with such nonsense. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 4:12:37 AM |
The fact is that the people of France had as much say over their laws under the Nazis as they do under the EU -none!
The EU has a European parliament. The Nazis had no parliament and therefore no representation at the non-parliament for France. EU Commissioners are selected by the democratically elected governments within the EU. What 'fact'? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 4:57:17 AM |
EU Commissioners are selected by the democratically elected governments within the EU. What 'fact'?
There are 27 commissioners. Not one of them is elected by the people of the country from which they are chosen. You claim that they are appointed by the elected government of esach country ( as if that gives it complete legitimacy!) but ignore the fact that the people of (for example) Italy have no say over which of the 26 other commissioners are chosen. Those other 26 commissioners will say what laws are enacted. Therefore, the people of Italy have no control whatsoever over what laws are issued to them......just like when the Nazis overran Italy in the closing months of the last war.
The EU has a European parliament.
The EU parliament passes laws which are dictated to it by the Commissioners. It does not create them.
The Nazis had no parliament and therefore no representation at the non-parliament for France.
Which meant that ordinary Frenchmen had no say in the runing of their country during the war! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 5:22:17 AM |
The EU parliament passes laws which are dictated to it by the Commissioners. It does not create them.
The EU Parliament discusses laws proposed not dictated to it by the Commissions headed by the Commissioners appointed by the member State governments. Hitler dictated. There's a big difference. The Parliament can veto and reject the proposals. I was part of a group who fought (and won) against one proposal through lobbying the Parliament. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 11:50:56 AM | | Ok well here is my theory and I am not the argumentative type but just expressing my opinion. The EU is not the elite ruling class in Europe. The ruling class of all western civilization are the merchant bankers who are Zionist who believe in racial superiority and class superiority and in the right of power — the power to take control of nations by control and manipulation of the money supply, by the creation of monopolies, especially of capital and land convert these nations into plutocracies where the middle classes are plundered and robbed of political participation and voice – or, as often as not, they have their control from outright conquest –Example - The defeat of Germany after both world wars and the subjugation of Russian under covertly banker-controlled) communism. The merchant bankers means of gaining power is ultimately through wars — they create and finance wars — and cold wars — in order to organize all of a nations economy — its “war economy” — under their control. Try reading the history of financier “statesman” Bernard Baruch in the 20th-century which perfectly demonstrates all of the above. They also create economic crises that ultimately give them power — the great depression (in which Baruch and Percy Rockefeller were involved — the stock-market crash was an operation where $100 billion in assets (in 1929 dollars!!!) was transferred from those who sold on the way down to those who bought up all of that industrial capital at bottom prices (assets were not destroyed, they just changed hands — from middle-class investors to the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Baruch etc.) — an attack on the United States that robbed its people of the wealth, their political participation and way of life. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/3/2009 12:11:02 PM |
The EU Parliament discusses laws proposed not dictated to it by the Commissions headed by the Commissioners appointed by the member State governments.
And is there a difference between 'proposed' and 'dictated' ?
Going by how the EU conducts itself, there is no difference whatsoever.
The Constitution uses the word 'proposed', of course, because of its non-threatening connotations - it still has the same meaning as 'dictated'!
"
Here's Article 1 - 26:
"Union legislative acts may be adopted only on the basis of a Commission proposal, except where the Constitution provides otherwise. Other acts shall be adopted on the basis of a Commission proposal where the Constitution so provides."
In other words, the Commission over-rides even the Council Of Ministers, that other pretence at democracy.
The Parliament can veto and reject the proposals.
All it can do is vote for amendments, which isn't the same thing. If the EU parliament rejects a proposal outright, then it can be over-ruled by the Council, which in turn can be over-ruled by the Commission.
MEPs are not subject to a pan -European election.
I was part of a group who fought (and won) against one proposal through lobbying the Parliament.
Really?
Care to explain how this miracle occurred? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:08:52 AM |
Why are so many British people opposed to the EU?
What sort of proportion do you mean by "so many"?
Latest poll in that right-wing broadsheet The Sunday Telegraph, 16-17 September 2009:
55% think the best interests of Britain are served by remaining in the EU.
40 % think we would be better served by being out of the EU.
5% didn't know.
In terms of political affiliation, Tory voters were split 48% for and 49% against, Labour voters 64% for and 31% against and LibDems 47% for, 50% against.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/pdfs/2009_sept_sunday_telgraph_poll.pdf
Interestingly only 10% thought that Britain gets the best deal from EU membership, 43% accorded that accolade to France and 25% to Germany. So even though the perception is that there isn't parity in benefits of membership, the majority still think we are better in than out.
How many is "so many"? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/30/2009 1:05:00 PM | For me "so many" means 40%, I can't imagine how any more educated people than voted for the Monster Raving Loony would even begin to think it a sensible idea. It's bar room politics and the politics of nonsence.  | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/30/2009 1:27:10 PM |
Interestingly only 10% thought that Britain gets the best deal from EU membership
Clearly, those people have no idea what benefits other countries derive from their membership.
So even though the perception is that there isn't parity in benefits of membership, the majority still think we are better in than out.
Ditto.
I can't imagine how any more educated people than voted for the Monster Raving Loony would even begin to think it a sensible idea. It's bar room politics and the politics of nonsence.
Obviously, some people are prepared to examine facts, rather than to pay attention to baseless rhetoric that many europhiles have to rely on (mainly because the truth of the matter is rather damaging to their case!). | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 9/30/2009 2:19:21 PM | It would appear that Mr. Cameleon, oops sorry Mr. Cameron is not one of those opposed to the EU either. He must be getting splinters in his ass from all that fence sitting. Just watch the Tories fall apart when Ireland vote YES.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/david-cameron/6246453/EU-David-Cameron-hints-Tories-would-not-hold-referendum-on-ratified-Lisbon-Treaty.html
Can't wait til Friday, come on Ireland, you know it makes sense. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/1/2009 3:06:02 AM |
it would appear that Mr. Cameleon, oops sorry Mr. Cameron is not one of those opposed to the EU either
wonder why that is? maybe because he's about to become PM and he realises that he will be accountable for this countries future.
The Tories are anti-EU at heart, pulling out of the treaty would be very popular with voters, even pulling out of the EU altogether would be popular. So why don't they? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/1/2009 3:17:27 AM |
wonder why that is? maybe because he's about to become PM and he realises that he will be accountable for this countries future.
The Tories ran a campaign recently on the basis of "In Europe, but not run by Europe"
I'm quite happy to be in trade-inly agreement with the rest of the Continent, just as we enjoy with China, India, Japan, America etc....
None of thos countries wish to make our laws for us, yet are perfectly happy to trade with us.
The EU, on the other hand, has a stated policy (Lisbon Treaty) of running this country, and it is this that the Tories object to.
Here's Cameron's thoughts on the issue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6421215.stm
"But there is no case for the Constitution, or a Constitution-lite."
"Only a decentralised political system will be able to hold Ireland and Turkey, Italy and Estonia in any sort of community "
It's one of the few things that Cameron and I agree upon......
Can't wait til Friday, come on Ireland, you know it makes sense.
You've obviously failed to note the most important aspect of the Irish Referendum - it is that the EU does NOT accept democratic votes.
The Irish have already rejected the Constitution, yet the EU has refused to accept that fact.
The EU is not a democracy, it does not like democracy, and it takes steps to remove democracy....
If that doesn't make it a 'nazi' organisation, I don't know what does! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/1/2009 3:25:19 AM |
The EU, on the other hand, has a stated policy (Lisbon Treaty) of running this country, and it is this that the Tories object to.
But they clearly don't object to it enough to pull out of the EU altogether.
Why do you think that is? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/1/2009 3:30:20 AM |
But they clearly don't object to it enough to pull out of the EU altogether.
Why do you think that is?
Did you bother to read the rest of the post that you quoted?
Did you miss this bit:
The Tories ran a campaign recently on the basis of "In Europe, but not run by Europe"
and this:
Here's Cameron's thoughts on the issue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6421215.stm
"But there is no case for the Constitution, or a Constitution-lite."
"Only a decentralised political system will be able to hold Ireland and Turkey, Italy and Estonia in any sort of community "
??
It is plain that the Tories want to be in an EU that DOESN'T have a centralised political system.
Does that answer your question? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/1/2009 3:39:40 AM | No it doesn't
Yes, ideally they want to be in an EU that doesn't have a centralised political system. But the reality is that when they get into power the treaty will have been ratified. So that says to me that they would prefer to be in the EU as it is, than outside it altogether. | |
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