| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/1/2009 3:45:38 AM |
Yes, ideally they want to be in an EU that doesn't have a centralised political system.
Finally!
But the reality is that when they get into power the treaty will have been ratified.
Quite possibly.
So that says to me that they would prefer to be in the EU as it is, than outside it altogether.
How can you possibly draw that conclusion from your previous comment?
How can you possibly know what the Tories will do once they have attained power with regard to our EU membership? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/1/2009 3:51:47 AM |
How can you possibly know what the Tories will do once they have attained power with regard to our EU membership?
From the Independant -
David Cameron has softened the Conservative Party's Eurosceptic rhetoric but called on the European Union to reform itself to meet the challenges of the global economy.
Outlining his European policy in Brussels, the Tory leader adopted a different tone to his predecessors but offered little prospect of policy changes and opposed plans to revive the stalled EU constitution as a slimline or "mini-treaty".
Mr Cameron said: "My approach to European negotiations will be different. I believe that the best way to pursue your national interest is not to posture but to persuade. I will work to create a flexible Europe by building alliances with those who share our interests and our ideas." Addressing an audience including 18 political parties and people from 17 countries, he called for a "3G Europe", saying the EU should focus on the economic challenge of globalisation, the environmental challenge of climate change and the moral and security challenge posed by global poverty.
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Think this might give us a hint as to what he does (or rather does not envisage doing) :D | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/1/2009 4:07:30 AM |
How can you possibly draw that conclusion from your previous comment?
because if they were that strongly opposed to the treaty, they would surely be talking about leaving the EU. Being a member of the EEA would surely qualify as "in Europe but not ruled by it" wouldn't it?
How can you possibly know what the Tories will do once they have attained power with regard to our EU membership?
of course I don't KNOW, but I suspect that once they get power, suddenly all their euro-scepticism will be toned down and they will go along with the treaty, because they know deep down that Britain needs the EU. Its easy to go along with populist anti-EU feelings when you're not in power, not so easy when you're the ones putting the countries future at risk. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/4/2009 1:19:48 AM |
because if they were that strongly opposed to the treaty, they would surely be talking about leaving the EU
And yet you had previously stated:
Yes, ideally they want to be in an EU that doesn't have a centralised political system.
MSG 289
I was part of a group who fought (and won) against one proposal through lobbying the Parliament.
Hey, still waiting for details of this minor miracle!
I'm surprised that no-one has commented upon the following comments:
MSG 298: "The Irish have already rejected the Constitution, yet the EU has refused to accept that fact.
The EU is not a democracy, it does not like democracy, and it takes steps to remove democracy...."
MSG 275 "So, the democratically elected government of this country produced a law which was unenforceable until sanctioned by the EU - just like I said!"
How odd!! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/4/2009 2:58:18 AM | Now that the Irish have voted ‘Yes’ that makes it 1-1 – will it be best of 3? Or is it a case of ‘Refusal is temporary – Acquiescence is for perpetuity........’
It is reported in the Daily Telegraph that following the ‘Yes’ vote in the Irish Referendum sequel that Tony Blair is one of the favourites to be ‘anointed’ as the first President of the EU.
If this does come to pass he will therefore assume an office which was wrought by the treaty on which he first promised, and then denied, the people of Britain a referendum to ask their consent before its very creation.
There could be no clearer illustration of the profoundly anti democratic nature of, and the fundamental disconnect between, the political elites of Europe and the people they claim to be serving. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/6/2009 9:41:14 AM | why are we brits so against the eu, well me for one , too many rules ,regulations,
bureaucrats, people swanning off to brussels forthe weekend with the girlfriend we cant do this and we cant do that , health and safety nonesense , political
correctness , a nannystate. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/6/2009 9:41:32 AM | why are we brits so against the eu, well me for one , too many rules ,regulations,
bureaucrats, people swanning off to brussels forthe weekend with the girlfriend , we cant do this and we cant do that , health and safety nonesense , political
correctness , a nannystate. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/6/2009 6:24:35 PM | I am pro EU – we need to be inside the EU and trading as a full member and should have gone into the Euro before Lawson’s financial fiasco the first time and in 2007 the second. Sterling is too small to wield power; Britain is too small to sit in isolation from Europe. We cannot get out and getting out would be economic suicide.
I object strongly to the way the EU is structured and the undemocratic ways in which it is allowed to work. Two things need to happen:
1) The Commissions /DGs need to report to the European Parliament, be responsible and accountable to it and under its direction and control
2) The Commissioners need to be given an ultimatum. If the directorates / Commissions under their control cannot provide a set of accounts within two years that pass satisfactory audit by an independent firm of auditors, they the Commissioners and all their top level staff can wave goodbye to their jobs, any compensation for the loss of those jobs and any pensions or other benefits that may have attached to those jobs. This on the basis of gross incompetency and/or mismanagement.
Solve the above two and the EU becomes an accountable and far more democratic institution. Without those solutions the political and bureaucratic structures that exist will remain an impediment to the people of Europe getting the best results from the economic union. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/6/2009 6:50:32 PM |
I am pro EU – we need to be inside the EU and trading as a full member....
OK.......and yet:
I object strongly to the way the EU is structured and the undemocratic ways in which it is allowed to work.
Hmm......so why do want your country to be governed by an 'undemocratic' sytem?
Basically, you are stating that you don't wish the British people to have a system of democracy overseeing their laws and governance, because you state that we 'need' to be inside the EU.
Sounds a bit 'nazi' to me......just like I pointed out in my very first post on this thread! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/6/2009 7:31:12 PM | Can you please clarify what you mean by this?
Sounds a bit 'nazi' to me......just like I pointed out in my very first post on this thread!
What part of the ideology is the same in your mind? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/6/2009 9:36:12 PM |
Hmm......so why do want your country to be governed by an 'undemocratic' sytem?
Basically, you are stating that you don't wish the British people to have a system of democracy overseeing their laws and governance, because you state that we 'need' to be inside the EU.
NO. YOU are 'saying' that.
The EU does not govern Britain. There's another Bedlam-like place in Westminster that does that. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/7/2009 12:46:06 AM |
Can you please clarify what you mean by this?
"Sounds a bit 'nazi' to me......just like I pointed out in my very first post on this thread!"
What part of the ideology is the same in your mind?
The 'authoritarian' aspect.
OED nazi: a person with extreme racist or authortarian views.
The EU does not govern Britain. There's another Bedlam-like place in Westminster that does that.
OED Govern: constitute a rule, standard, or principle for. conduct the affairs and policy of a state, organisation, or people.
See MSG 275 for details!
And in the absence of further details, I shall assume that the question asked in MSG 291 is not going to be answered. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/7/2009 2:04:24 PM | | I am opposed to the EU, Because we were promised a referendum by good old Tony Blair. But as usual we were lied to. I dont know enough about what the country is being led by the nose into. And it should be explained properly and then let the people vote. I think that's democracy. We were allways an informed country but now we are not. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/7/2009 6:53:57 PM | Msg: 313
If you're going to continue with the OED OCD, you really should get the complete one - not the concise pocket version that adds substance to your trousers. Or was it 'Sesame Street' again today?
"Govern. To rule over by right of authority: to govern a nation." Dictionary.com
The EU does not govern Britain - The Houses of Parliament do (in the strictest sense, Britain is still "Sovereign" so The Qeen does).
OED nazi: a person with extreme racist or authortarian views.
So where are the extreme authoritarian views? Can we expect at the next election Baroness Glenys Kinnock dressed in Obergruppenführer uniform? Chirac goose-stepping into The Whitehouse?
" Is democracy good for everyone?
It’s the best possible system for the biggest number.
What would make you start a revolution?
Look in my own country we were living in a dicatatorship and I believe that is a good reason to start a revolution. In fact we had a democratic revolution in 1974 when freedom was not respected, when people are not free to say what they think, when people can go to prison for having a different opinion of the government. That is a reason to start a revolution.
Are dictators ever good?
Dictators are simply not acceptable. They are by definition always bad. There are against freedom, and freedom is a basic right of every human being."
Responses are by Jose Manuel Barroso - President of the European Commission - to an interview in Democracy News. See http://www.whydemocracy.net
So tell us how he's a nazi? a 'person with extreme racist or authoritarian views'? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:07:55 AM | | Maybe we should consider changing the question in the OP. Why are so many English people opposed to the EU, there doesn't seem to be much animosity and negativity against it in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Surprisingly it is the English that are so opposed even though it is England which gets most of the benefits since most of the money provided by the EU is spent by Westminster and they spend most of it in England. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/8/2009 2:08:57 AM | | I think the answer to that is fairly simple. The EU allows small countries to be independant and protects their national identities against the potential threat of their large neighbours. Look at all the newly independant countries in Eastern Europe. Any independance movement in Wales or Scotland would rely on EU membership. England is a big enough country to think it can go it alone. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:01:07 AM | Mostly people don't like the EU because they never had the choice of saying yes or no.
As a country we feel betrayed and sold out to the interests of others, we have no control over our own borders...
If the EU has anything positive to offer, I for one, have yet to see it.
My choice would be to tell the EU to go fook itself as we've had a bellyful of being screwed.
xxx Bob xxx | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:31:25 PM |
If you're going to continue with the OED OCD, you really should get the complete one - not the concise pocket version that adds substance to your trousers. Or was it 'Sesame Street' again today?
Not knowing what Sesame Street is (never having seen it), I have no idea what you're talking about, but you've raised it twice in this thread, and I'm not sure why. Should I be worried for you?
FYI I use the OED because it's an English dictionary, not America.
OK, let's compare the two definitions:
"Govern. To rule over by right of authority: to govern a nation." Dictionary.com
Govern: constitute a rule, standard, or principle for. conduct the affairs and policy of a state, organisation, or people
Not that much difference.
The EU does not govern Britain - The Houses of Parliament do (in the strictest sense, Britain is still "Sovereign" so The Qeen does).
Britain is no longer a sovereign nation, although the Queen is still the sovereign. In case anyone is confused by that, they are two different states:
OED Sovereign: a supreme ruler, especially a monarch.
OED Sovereign: possessing supreme or ultimate power; (of a nation or its affairs) acting or done independently and without outside interference.
Until we joined the EU (Common Market, as it was laughably described to us in 1973), the sovereign was indeed 'sovereign'. She was the ultimate authority in the land. Her government made our laws, and her Courts administered justice - there was no higher authority.
No longer!
Nowadays, the Queen's Courts and Parliament are told what to do by the EU. In MSG 289, you claimed to have lobbied the EU Parliament in the hope of preventing a law being passed. Why did you go to the EU Parliament? Surely, as a Briton living in Britain, you should been lobbying HM Government?
No, the reason why you lobbied the EU Parliament is because it dictates all the laws of every EU member country, and the law that it was passing would have become law in Britain whether we wanted it or not. Clearly, SOME people didn't want it, so they went to the supreme power in hope of stopping it.
Sadly, you've been a little shy in giving us details, but the fact remains that you and others went to the highest executive, and that is no longer HM Government.
I don't know if you've heard of the European Court of Justice, but it is now the highest court in Britain. People appeal to it once they have exhausted the legal process in this country, and sometimes the ECJ finds in their favour.
So where are the extreme authoritarian views?
I've detailed them throughout this thread.
The EU is not democratic. Take the recent Irish Referendum on Lisbon. You may or may not be aware, but last year the Irish voted not to ratify Lisbon. The EU didn't like that answer, and so instructed the Irish PM that he had to deliver a 'Yes' vote. So, he held anothe referendum. There will now not be a third, but the EU would have insisted on ratification by the Irish government, no matter how long it took.
The Irish also had two referendums on Nice, in case you've forgotten.
Basically, the EU is anti-democracy.....therefore, it is 'authoritarian'.
OED Authoritarian: favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom
If Barroso is so 'pro-democracy', why did he not abide by the result of the first Irish referendum on Lisbon?
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/8/2009 4:19:57 PM | The EU is at a pivotal point; there is a huge political battle to be won that demonstrates why not just British people but citizens from all over Europe oppose the current EU political structure AND proposed changes.
The Lisbon Treaty Extends the power of EU law making into a huge number of areas including Foreign Policy and Defence.
The EU refused to take ‘No’ for an answer from the Irish people when they first said ‘No’ to it. It drafted the Lisbon Treaty as a response to the Dutch and French populations which rejected Lisbon’s predecessor. Just before the Irish had to take a second vote, the EU presented Eire with a generous package of assistance for its unemployed.
"Former health minister Gisela Stuart said the treaty breached the fundamental democratic principle that voters can get rid of those in power.Just weeks before the Irish are asked to vote again on the measure, she said it would also allow the EU to launch future power grabs completely unchecked. Miss Stuart is a pro-European who sat on the committee which drew up the original EU Constitution, later repackaged as the Lisbon Treaty. She said it would leave a huge 'democratic deficit' if passed, leaving the EU's leaders accountable to no one. She said there would be 'no more treaties, no more referendums anywhere' on EU integration. The treaty contains a 'ratchet clause', meaning that national vetoes can be scrapped one by one without the need for summits or referendums. Voters will also have no power to choose or remove a new all powerful EU president, who will be selected by EU leaders." Daiy Telegraph
The Europe Say No campaign (http://www.europesaysno.org) has been campaigning from within the EU for people to rally against the Lisbon Treaty. That's people from all over Europe. It's trying to stop politicians like Blair imposing a leadership accountable to no one through the Lisbon Treaty.
If Lisbon is imposed on the EU then two questions need to be resolved:
1) How to dismantle it and impose the will of the democratically elected Parliament.
2) What do we need from Westminster? The USA governs itself with 100 members in its Senate and 435 Members of the House of Representatives for a population of c304 million. We have 645 MPs and an additional 724 people sitting in the House of Lords and a population of c61 million. We also have assemblies in Wales and N Ireland and another Parliament in Scotland. If the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, how many MPs and members of The House of Lords in Westminster do we need?
There is another lesser issue in Britain - the 'Gold Plating' of European legislation. British Bureaucrats and legislators have the habit of turning simple EU documents into complex tomes and laws. There is nothing in place that checks and balances this. It places an excessive burden on us that many fellow European states don't suffer.
People who want to go on "p*ssing in the wind" (Some specific meanings only exist when words are combined together in phrases) by dissecting sentences into individual words are demeaning the seriousness of the issues now facing the people of Europe. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/11/2009 6:20:37 PM | The Irish were not forced to hold another referendum they wanted one because the No campaign lied about the treaty and what would be affected by it. The Irish people had every opportunity to vote against it again and in fact for many that was their main reasons for voting no a second time. When faced with the truth and having realised the economic consequences of voting no they voted in favour by an overwhelming majority.
I wish there would be a referendum in this country too regardless of who wins the upcoming election because the British people when faced with the real facts about the treaty as opposed to the nonsense you read in here and the press they will vote Yes too. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/11/2009 7:21:13 PM | | I tell ya the EU is the making of the Bilderberg group, they are in the process of creating the North American union which will include Mexico, USA and Canada, they are quietly sneaking it in because they know how unpopular it will be. We have the African Union and now the Asian Union. They are just one step away from making what where around 200 countries into 5 or 6, into 1 new world order lmao. Believe this conspiracy if you want to or not, but there seems more truth in it than most other conspiracies. I have to say am kinda not sure what to believe, but being part of the EU doesn;t bother me, as long as the UK doesn't loose it's sovereignty. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/12/2009 2:14:32 AM |
I wish there would be a referendum in this country too regardless of who wins the upcoming election because the British people when faced with the real facts about the treaty as opposed to the nonsense you read in here and the press they will vote Yes too.
You cannot compare the British and the Irish when it comes to views on the EU. The British people would vote No with a huge majority. A vote on whether to even stay in the EU would be a close call.
The British people have been bombarded with anti-EU propaganda from the tabloids for so long and combined with the lies and incompetance of our governments this has created a deep rooted anti-EU feeling. People don't care about the facts - even if the treaty specifically placed limitations on the powers of the EU over national governments (which I think it should) people would still vote against it simply because it is an EU treaty.
It is now impossible to hold a reasoned public debate on the EU in Britain which is why we won't be allowed a say. No government wil risk it because the public will vote against the EU. So by doing the right thing democratically the government risks the country's economic stability. Its convenient for the Tories that the treaty will be ratified by the time they get in.
Its a sad state of affairs really! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/12/2009 3:44:36 PM |
The Irish were not forced to hold another referendum
Yes, they were.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/3173967/EU-steps-up-pressure-on-Ireland-to-hold-second-Lisbon-Treaty-referendum.html
they wanted one because the No campaign lied about the treaty and what would be affected by it.
And what 'lies' did the No Campaign tell?
When faced with the truth and having realised the economic consequences of voting no they voted in favour by an overwhelming majority.
Hmm.....so the bribes had nothing to do with it?
http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=2026663&Language=en
Even the commies acknowledged the bribes:
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/features/Interference-Ireland-could-do-without
And the BBC did, too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6901353.stm
"The Irish government agreed in December 2008 to hold the new vote by November 2009, in return for a set of EU "legal guarantees" aimed at addressing various concerns raised by voters. The EU pledges not to impose rules on Ireland concerning taxation, "family" issues - such as abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage - and the traditional Irish state neutrality."
Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
My opposition is explained in the following posts. Funnily enough, the OP hasn't been able to respond to them in any of his incarnations:
MSG 120 How the EU placed its laws above those of member states.
MSG 300 How the EU ensures that the laws of member states have to be ratified by the EU before they can become law.
MSG 319 How the EU is now the supreme court and parliament in member states AND how the EU views 'democracy', by the fact that it refused to accept the democratic wish of the Irish people on two occasions. | |
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