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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/12/2009 4:28:29 PM |
My opposition is explained in the following posts. Funnily enough, the OP hasn't been able to respond to them in any of his incarnations:
MSG 120 How the EU placed its laws above those of member states.
But the individual states agreed to that when they joined or ratified the various treaties - so the blame's not with the EU but the politicians in your own state who did that.
MSG 300 How the EU ensures that the laws of member states have to be ratified by the EU before they can become law.
Err - when you have a Supreme Court and a higher authority - that's what you do. Like Commons -> Lords -> EU, Congress and Senate etc etc. Fundamentaly, there's nothing worng with that sort of system.
MSG 319 How the EU is now the supreme court and parliament in member states
Nothing new there is there? That's been in place for several years. THE issue is how powerless the Parliament is. We vote for them - the Commissioners who appoint each other - don't have to take any notice whatsoever of the Parliament. That's the undemocratic bit.
AND how the EU views 'democracy', by the fact that it refused to accept the democratic wish of the Irish people on two occasions.
Or is that how you view how the EU views democracy? On Ireland - look at the promises made by the Irish politicians to its electorate - they reneged on them big time. 'All' the EU did was offer - money - lots of it. Brown should have held out for a bit of palm greasing for the UK before he signed us over - maybe then he wouldn't have to sell off the Dartford Bridge and Tunnel? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:05:57 PM |
But the individual states agreed to that when they joined or ratified the various treaties - so the blame's not with the EU but the politicians in your own state who did that.
It doesn't alter the fact that it was the EU that created the situation in the first place.
I know that MSG 120 is quite long and contains some long words, but you really should try reading it.
Err
Odd choice of word to begin a sentence!
OED Err: be mistaken or incorrect.
Having said that, it fits so many of your posts on this thread......
when you have a Supreme Court and a higher authority - that's what you do.
Quite, but we don't need or want a higher authority in this country. Our own system did fine for centuries.
FYI America doesn't have one, neither do Japan or China, or India, or Botswana, or Argentina, or......
Nothing new there is there?
Actually, it's very new....
Or is that how you view how the EU views democracy?
Well, if the EU accepted 'democracy', the Irish results for Nice and Lisbon would have stood.
A simple point, but not simple enough, apparently...
On Ireland - look at the promises made by the Irish politicians to its electorate - they reneged on them big time.
And which promises were those?
'All' the EU did was offer - money - lots of it.
Ie: a bribe!
Just like I said.... | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:57:02 PM |
But the individual states agreed to that when they joined or ratified the various treaties - so the blame's not with the EU but the politicians in your own state who did that.
It doesn't alter the fact that it was the EU that created the situation in the first place
What does that even mean anyway!!!!
WE are the EU, and as the EU we created it, and yes WE created it in the first place!
Thats pretty much what you said.
Whether you agree with me or not its true...
Just because you dont see our link to its creation it doesnt mean it isnt there.
ZeeGary make sense for those who are trying to follow this if not take part...
You seem to want to seperate "us" from "them", and yet with the EU there is no "us" and "them"
Something that is missed all the time, you can see it in the Tory Eurosceptic benches too...
Because they dont weild the stick they are affriad of it.
Somehthing I I hope happens, it cant get any worse than it is now, I think we can all agree that Labour is in a shit state, the Torys offer no real alternative, and the Liberals will never get into power as long as you have an arse hole, so the EU might be worth a look see, we can opt out anytime we want to after all, this country has the freedom to do that any any time it wishes. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 12:17:57 AM | Msg 329
It doesn't alter the fact that it was the EU that created the situation in the first place. and maybe something about ... "don't mention the war" "I didn't" "you did, you started it" ""no we didn't" "yes you did you invaded Poland?" A la Basil Fawlty? Did the posting have a beginning, middle and an end bit with a conclusion? Or was it just the usual general rant about 'johnny foreigners' and Britannia not waiving the rules any more?
If you just tell us that you hate foreigners, people who weren't born here, British people whose parent's weren't born here, the decline of the British Empire, multiculturalism, anything not English and any decisions about Britain and/or the world being made outside Westminster (and inside Westminster if a Labour government holds power) - we'll accept that. And thank you profoundly for not dragging your OED out for another 'Sesame Street' session.
Meanwhile .......... there's a growing movement of opposition to the EU developing within the EU (that's British people AND the foreign people who live in the foregin parts of the EU). It's not loony UKIP style stuff though, but a dissatisfaction with the non-directly elected autocrats who have pushed through the undemocratic Lisbon Treaty. These people aren't saying they want out of the EU but that they want an EU that serves them and not vice versa, the autocrats out and a democratic system put in its place. Some people aren't opposed to the EU per se but the method of government. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 1:08:40 AM | ZeeGary if the Lisbon treaty were to get the go ahead can you tell us what it would mean for us?
Im not asking you to plagerise, or direct me to a web site to read somebody elses opinion, whats your opinion on it based on what you know? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 2:19:01 AM |
WE are the EU, and as the EU we created it, and yes WE created it in the first place!...
....
You seem to want to seperate "us" from "them", and yet with the EU there is no "us" and "them"
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation that many British people have. People see it as "us and them" as if the EU was a foreign country | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:01:17 AM |
as if the EU was a foreign country
They/it are ....
People see it as "us and them"
For those that do not wish to be a part of it, that is how it has become..
A democratic vote would have resolved this issue ...
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:40:55 AM |
They/it are ....
how?
Its an organisation not a country
and since we are part of it (and one of the most powerful members) how can it be described as foreign?
Point taken regarding the lack of a vote and not wishing to be part of it, but you can say the same about many things the government does. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 4:11:00 AM |
how?
Ok re phrase, it's an organisation full of foreigners, that some of us do not wish to be a part of ..
Point taken regarding the lack of a vote and not wishing to be part of it, but you can say the same about many things the government does.
A vote was promised and never happened so slightly different eh ?
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 4:32:24 AM | However we are a part of the EU and have been for many years.
And we were lied to and will not get a vote on the Lisbon Treaty - Gordon Brown signed up to it.
So is there a viable effective alternative for the UK that will not leave us economically destitute? And if so what is it and how would it work? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 4:42:19 AM |
So is there a viable effective alternative for the UK that will not leave us economically destitute?
If there was, the Tories would surely be glad to announce leaving the EU or a referendum on membership as their first policy | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 12:34:16 PM | MSG 330 I'd love to try and make sense of your post, but the task may be beyond me.
WE are the EU, and as the EU we created it, and yes WE created it in the first place!
Thats pretty much what you said.
No, it isn't.
The EU that we know today is basically a creation of itself, helped by various politicians who did not have their national interests at heart.
You mentioned how useless out political parties appear - sadly, the day is fast approaching when there won't be any need for such things in EU members states.
MSG 331 As I said, I haven't any idea what Sesame Street is, but you plainly think I do.
Should I be worried about your apparent obsession with it?
If you just tell us that you hate foreigners, people who weren't born here, British people whose parent's weren't born here, the decline of the British Empire, multiculturalism, anything not English and any decisions about Britain and/or the world being made outside Westminster (and inside Westminster if a Labour government holds power) - we'll accept that.
See MSG 16.
MSG 332 See MSG 3 | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 1:57:30 PM |
Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Well I'm not against it, I think one of it's original aims was to prevent war, and there hasn't been a war between any of them, I don't think....
So I can only guess as to why so many are,
maybe the words "European Union"
First off, "European":
"GARLIC, BREAD???!!!"
Need I say more??
Secondly the word "UNION", well this puts off a lot of people,
particularly those that buy into the myth
that unions are an infectious form of communism
and all trade unionists should be sent to gulags where they will be taught servility, and gratitude.
So in summary, I would say it's been badly marketed,
They should have called it something like:
"Empire Fun Club",
then all those same people would be in favour
IMO
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:39:23 PM |
No, it isn't.
The EU that we know today is basically a creation of itself, helped by various politicians who did not have their national interests at heart.
Its what we made it, we being the EU itself, we the UK are one of the founding members and the purpose of the union was the preserve itself.
Look back to its original inception, its goals have never really changed, its members have but the goals havent.
You mentioned how useless out political parties appear - sadly, the day is fast approaching when there won't be any need for such things in EU members states.
You say that like its a bad thing!
Imagine an almost utopian state where the polotical system is fair and not self serving, you can see the self serving nature of the current political system in the news only tonight, where the MPs are refusing to pay back money they are not entitled to, placing blame on a party isnt enough, its human nature that is the problem in our system as it stands, its always been open to this "abuse"
The quicker the system moves to people who make the decisions without thought of reward or favor the better in my opinion, because this isnt what we have right now.
Being elected as an MP is a very lucrative position, they may have started with the best interntions of serving, but I wonder if that is how it is right now...
One will never know I guess, we have only the word of somebody who has something to gain by lieing about it to keep their position.
The current system is flawed, we all know it, why do you support it so?
Do you honestly believe it will be different when the tories are elected in the next general election?
Your making a foolish mistake if you do, because the under laying problem is self serving humans. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:43:19 PM |
I think one of it's original aims was to prevent war,
You're wrong.
There is no mention of 'war' in the Treaty Of Rome.
So I can only guess as to why so many are,maybe the words "European Union"
(Is there something wrong with your computer? Your lines always end too soon)
You obviously haven't read any of the posts on this thread, or any sites devoted to the EU........not one of them mentions the name.
Secondly the word "UNION", well this puts off a lot of people,particularly those that buy into the myth that unions are an infectious form of communism
Well, it's a fact, not a myth..
all trade unionists should be sent to gulags where they will be taught servility, and gratitude.
Weren't the gulags run by commies?
in summary, I would say it's been badly marketed,
Marketing has got nothing to do with it......the reality is apparent to some of us. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 9:10:22 PM |
You're wrong.
There is no mention of 'war' in the Treaty Of Rome.
No there is no explicit mention of war, but then there wasnt in the Treaty of Paris either, but one of the underlaying hopes of that treaty was to cement relations between the players in WWII, (Diplomatic Relations and Trade Relations).
Secondly the word "UNION", well this puts off a lot of people,particularly those that buy into the myth that unions are an infectious form of communism
Well, it's a fact, not a myth..
Its also a fact that the European UNION was created by capitolists, not Commies...
Look at the under laying reasons for the EEC (European Economic Community).
It was driven by a capitolists desire.
the reality is apparent to some of us.
And SOME of us see that you imply that it is communist in its ethics, rather than Capitolist or at a push internationalist... The modern EU is Thatchers dream isnt it...
Well it is as long as we can screw it for all its worth and then when its no longer good for anything we can ditch it all together...
Rather fashist in ethic dont you think! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:13:14 PM | France and Germany are the most powerful members and always will be unless they have another historic falling it out
Even Belgium has more influence in the EU than we do
We pay the most money into the EU, our government doesnt even make sure we meet the minimum requirement of UK members working for the EU so we have less influence than we should do and worst of all the EU politicians that run the EU are not directly elected and the Euro MPs themselves just belong to a glorified talking shop
Due to geographical location and traditional alliances within the EU, we dont have much influence
Historically we have always made alliances whether political ones or through inter royal family marriage to anyone opposed to the power of France and Germany, now we've stopped that kind of politics our power waned in Europe and the EU has accelarated the process | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/14/2009 12:15:54 AM |
So is there a viable effective alternative for the UK that will not leave us economically destitute?
Yes, the EEA.
It is a lot cheaper than full membership, and we get some of our democracy back, which is better than having none. We wouldn't be subject to rulings by the ECJ, either, as far as I can tell.
Even cheaper would be to leave the EEA altogether. The rest of the EU would still trade with us, just like it does with many non-EU countries.
Its what we made it, we being the EU itself, we the UK are one of the founding members and the purpose of the union was the preserve itself.
?
We joined in 1973.....we were not a founding member.
Look back to its original inception, its goals have never really changed, its members have but the goals havent.
I know it's goals haven't changed, hence the imminent arrival of the 'super-state' envisaged by Monnet etc.
Imagine an almost utopian state where the polotical system is fair and not self serving, you can see the self serving nature of the current political system in the news only tonight, where the MPs are refusing to pay back money they are not entitled to, placing blame on a party isnt enough, its human nature that is the problem in our system as it stands, its always been open to this "abuse"
Er......the EU's system isn't 'fair' in the slightest, and MEPs are just as capable of corruption...
The current system is flawed, we all know it, why do you support it so?
No matter what system of government, there will always be those who will exploit it for personal gain.
The modern EU is Thatchers dream isnt it...
No, she's a eurosceptic, actually.
And SOME of us see that you imply that it is communist in its ethics..
I can't see were I've implied that, but here's what one commie thinks about the EU:
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=10974 | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/14/2009 2:13:23 AM |
We joined in 1973.....we were not a founding member.
I know, I was wondering if you did too...
Maybe, but not after having to look it up maybe!
Spouting on about Rome, when you should be talking about Paris made me wonder!
I know it's goals haven't changed, hence the imminent arrival of the 'super-state' envisaged by Monnet etc.
Not quite sure what way to take that one...
Er......the EU's system isn't 'fair' in the slightest, and MEPs are just as capable of corruption...
Yes but external pressure can be seen if looked or watched for, where as our own internal system breeds it as a common factor...
like I said, one only has to look at the expenses of recent months to see how justified my words are, the facts only support it, you cant deny that.
Somebody (a nobody in the EU) would care little about how it would effect him, because it wouldnt so his decissions would be unbias based on whats best for those it effects...
utopian thoughts maybe, but better than what we have, because so far its heading to a totalitarian state if we carry on like we are going, and with the way the world is looking, its totalitarian with fashistic leanings!!!
Im pretty sure you dont want that... do you?
No, she's a eurosceptic, actually
I know!
Anybody who knows anything at all about her should know that, she made her feelings crystal clear on the matter, which Im sure you know full well too... | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/14/2009 2:13:38 AM |
Even Belgium has more influence in the EU than we do
eh? just because the parliament is located there doesn't mean they have more influence as a country!
Due to geographical location and traditional alliances within the EU, we dont have much influence
Our Geographical location is pretty much central, surely? A little stretch of water (with a high speed train going through it) hardly puts us on the margins geographically!
Ask the French or the Germans and they will tell you that the EU has been swinging far too much towards the British economic model
You're right we pay the most in, along with the other large and powerful members. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/14/2009 2:39:39 AM | Oh, here we go!
I know, I was wondering if you did too...
Maybe, but not after having to look it up maybe!
Does it matter how I learned of a fact?
And if you "know", then why did you make the comment:
the UK are one of the founding members
?
Spouting on about Rome, when you should be talking about Paris made me wonder!
Please don't tell me what I should be talking about. The Treaty of Rome is central to this thread, as far as many of my points about the EU are concerned.
Not quite sure what way to take that one...
Check his history......he wanted a single legal entity above the countries of Europe.
Yes but external pressure can be seen if looked or watched for, where as our own internal system breeds it as a common factor...
I think I'll wait for the plain English version of this.
Somebody (a nobody in the EU) would care little about how it would effect him, because it wouldnt so his decissions would be unbias based on whats best for those it effects...
I think I'll wait for the plain English version of this.
I know!
Anybody who knows anything at all about her should know that, she made her feelings crystal clear on the matter, which Im sure you know full well too...
So why did you make the comment:
The modern EU is Thatchers dream isnt it...
?? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:50:12 AM |
(Is there something wrong with your computer? Your lines always end too soon).
That's really very sweet of you,
I'm not that way inclined.....
You obviously haven't read any of the posts on this thread, or any sites devoted to the EU........not one of them mentions the name.
Well then it's lucky I happened by, because that's what it stands for!
HTH
Secondly the word "UNION", well this puts off a lot of people,particularly those that buy into the myth that unions are an infectious form of communism
Well, it's a fact, not a myth..
So you'll be providing a source?
Weren't the gulags run by commies?
Yes, well done!
But you say "commie" as if it's a bad thing?
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/14/2009 9:05:32 AM | as simple minded as it may seem,
i'm opposed to the EU because of the power a EU superstate will bring to one person, aka tony blair, no-one should have that amount of power in the EU, i know the yanks are a large "superstate" basically, but thats not what the topic is on.
i wholehartedly agree that all the poloticians are scum, but in light of this thought what are your alternatives? i may have mentioned it before, but what would be the logistics of setting up a free phone voting system, giving everyone a unique id and pin to cast votes on certain day to day things that they never ever progress in the commons.
all the parties are too busy crowing "our idea is bestest", therefore no-one actually agree's on anything, therefor heehaw gets done. no business in the world could run like this, and seeing as we al basically employ the MP's we should have reserved right to fire them too.
simples. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 10/14/2009 11:48:27 AM | They do have a lot of technocrats in positions of power, you're missing the point
You miss the point being in the EU our geographical location holds against us we're remote from the center of power in Brussels and Strasbourg, if we were we a soverign nation again it would hold in our favour and we could play the traditional game of divide and conquer over France and German using the old concept of the grand alliance
The only thing the French and Germans fear is the minnows having more power after enlargement, and seeing their power diluted
The EUs economic model is out of our control entirely, its not decided by Euro MPs and we have precious little influence over it in the long term | |
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, why dont you take up crossstitch and chill all this negativity won't get you a slim girl in a short dress.