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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 3/31/2009 3:18:15 PM | But a favour in return please, a bit less of this chopping up of my masterpieces, words that were spoken to me by an Angel and therefore best taken whole for their message rather than the individual parts if you know what I mean.
by masterpiece, I take it you mean lengthy, and non factual, pieces of fiction, with no evidence to back any claims.
I understand.
I enjoy the debate, and like to read others opinions, but when they are stated as fact, but are totally fictional and 100% incorrect (but still stated as fact), then I reserve the right to rip them to shreds as I feel necessary.
Too often the people in the UK get spin from the British government, and we get given (or dictated to) the crappy pieces of the EU, with none of the better, more sensible bits.
The Schengen thing happens to be just that.
As I say, I live and work "in the EU", as a direct result of being shafted in the UK by a company that wanted to move to Poland, so I am fully aware of what the EU does in the UK, and on the mainland.
This is why I am looking forward to the attempt at another 9 "benefits" that the EU has given British people.
I think you might well need to be a magician to find them!
Especially as the British people voted to join the "common market" an idea that would generate trade between Britain and Europe.
the rest of it, the laws, the liberties, the immigration, the funding, are all towards partial, or total, European integration, and have never been put to the British people to vote on.
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 3/31/2009 3:39:41 PM | Haven't fotgot you Badge mate honest. The buggers have got me surrounded with bullets coming from all directions. Gonna take shelter in me teepee and get some good R&R. Will get onto it first thing. Night mate.
What's with the ladies in here?, you all not like politics?. It's your vote that swings any election ladies. You are the power behind the thone, you control who gets put into power now not the men if you only realised it. What you got against the very institution that wone you the most of the freedomss you enjoy today. So come on one of you, lets dance.
Barry. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 3/31/2009 3:46:09 PM | | What i carnt understand is when we had our empire we had the same amount of mps, yet we got no empire, still got the mps and now another level with the eu! im sure if you ask most british and commonwealth vets if they would of been happy ... | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 3/31/2009 3:47:35 PM | The myth that the EU banned the sale of bendy bananas is exactly that; a myth. Doesn't matter whether you agree with that, or think it's rubbish, it's a myth, no ifs, no buts, End of. The information people have posted here trying to show it's not a myth even prove it is a myth if they had bothered to read it properly. Really? So, to prevent further discourse, any chance that you could quote the relevant section of the directive which states that it doesn't deal with the curvature of bananas?
I can't do that, because the Directive DOES deal with curvature.
As I said though, clearly you've not actually read the full legislation and have just jumped on the word "minimum" and reacted to it without understanding the context. Just like the tabloid newspapers did many, many years ago before this myth was cleared up (I can't believe there are still people that actually believe in it).
It's not a ban on bananas. It's not a restriction on bananas. It's a food label quality classification system. It lays down minimum figures of lengths/sizes/curvatures for differing grades of bananas in the three quality classes - Extra Class (Perfect), Class 1 (minor imperfections), and Class 2 (major imperfections).
Nothing more, nothing less.
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 3/31/2009 7:13:49 PM | Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ? Well to kick off its an unelected dictatorship! I think if people felt more in control and could understand better where it was going there wouldn't be a problem but its never clear and doesn't appear to work in the interests of the UK in general. There are always hidden agenda's which appear to be less about helping member states to help themselves and rather about inflicting burdens on other states that can ill afford it.
If we had an elected EU and key aspects were given to UK polling booths it would be another matter but as we've seen so far every time that happens the EU looses :P and that's not a British problem but an EU one ;) | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 1:21:58 AM | @ MSG 85.
I can assure you that I read 2257/94 (I'm hardly likely to quote it if it doesn't support my case, am I?) and supplied relevant quotes.
As you accept:
the Directive DOES deal with curvature.
HOW it deals with that curvature is largely irrelevant - the fact is that the EU laid down in fairly precise terms the minimum requirements in order that curvature can be determined.
You accepted this point, too:
It lays down minimum figures of lengths/sizes/curvatures for differing grades of bananas in the three quality classes - Extra Class (Perfect), Class 1 (minor imperfections), and Class 2 (major imperfections).
You very kindly acknowledged that the EU defined three standards (classes) for bananas based, partly, on their curvature. Now, no-one has claimed that the EU ever banned the sale of over-bendy bananas - MSG 12 mentioned the part played by the media scare stories with regard to the EU forcing us to accept straight bananas. To my knowledge, not one paper has ever made such a claim, because the EU hasn't ever made such a ridiculous law. It DID, however, lay down regulations (2257/94) governing the curvature of bananas - a point I raised in my response to MSG 12.
Two posters claim that the scare stories were a tabloid invention. One of those posters (you) accepts that the EU " lays down minimum figures of lengths/sizes/curvatures for differing grades of bananas". Therefore, the EU DID issue regulations concerning the curvature of bananas (like I claimed), and the tabloid stories concerning that directive WERE true, and not a 'myth'.
MSG 86
Well to kick off its an unelected dictatorship! I think if people felt more in control and could understand better where it was going there wouldn't be a problem but its never clear and doesn't appear to work in the interests of the UK in general.
That is my main concern about the EU. The European population is not in control of the EU. Bring back democracy! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 2:56:29 AM | Can I just say, this a brilliant debate, I bowed out early because I don't know enough about it, but kudos to BO, ZG and others who have made contributions. I particularily like the fact that it has remained serious (mostly) throughout.  | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 3:26:58 AM |
We get £2 back for every £3 we contribute to the EU
Can you back this statement up at all?
It would be good to see an unbiased cost-benefit analysis, but I'm not aware of a credible attempt to do this. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 3:49:24 AM |
We get £2 back for every £3 we contribute to the EU
Can you back this statement up at all?
It would be good to see an unbiased cost-benefit analysis, but I'm not aware of a credible attempt to do this.
This link should help:
http://www.global-vision.net/facts/fact15_2.asp
I'll quote the relevant section:
"Make-up of Total UK Deficit with EU24, 1997-2005.
* In the nine years 1997-2005 inclusive, the UK, in aggregate, paid over £108.4bn to EU institutions & received back £64.4bn, resulting in an aggregate Net Contribution of £44.0bn. "
This information wasn't plucked from thin air (like many of the pro-EU comments on this thread) but supplied by the ONS:
"The source of the data set out above is the Balance of Payments section of the Office for National Statistics (the ONS), the British Government's national statistical service. The ONS, whose head reports to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is an agency of HM Treasury."
Incidentally, the tables show:
"In addition, on its trade (imports & exports of goods, services & income) with the other 24 EU member states, the UK, over the 1997-2005 period, recorded an aggregated deficit of £72.5bn. Table 2, column d."
So, for those who claim that leaving the EU will damage our trade, I suggest that the EU would still trade with us after we had left, in order to maintain its favourable position of net beneficiary.
Oh, and where are those links to sites containing xenophobic statements from anti-EU people? Having trouble finding any?
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 4:23:45 AM | There is a lot more to it than a simple calculation of what we pay in and what we get back. In my opinion the indirect benefits from increased investment and resulting jobs etc more than make up for the net contribution to institutions. Its a difficult thing to calculate obviously, which is why it would be interesting to see a full analysis.
I never promised any links. All you need to do is read the comments anywhere where this subject comes up - this particular discussion is unusually sensible as someone else just pointed out! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 4:38:36 AM | why
one,
we voted to join the common market, i.e. trade, agricultural
two
we never voted to join a e.u. superstate, we are being made to by politicians without our consent, remember they are meant to be working for us, not us working for them, but there loyaltys are to the party, not to the people who voted them in
three
would you join a club, that for every pound you got from it, you had to put in three, well thats what has happened
four
are you happy with some bods in brussels making all our laws, taxs, losing our currency, so same laws, currency, everything thoughout europe
in the past, currencys were bought and sold, as other commoditys, in a reccession, when some countrys were in reccession, some were doing well, that way, those not doing so well were, through trade were pulled out of financial difficultys, with all using the same currency, same laws, taxs, ect, its a lot more difficult
because we are on the margins still, even though we have a bunch of muppets in charge with tunnel vision, we still have a good chance of recovery before the states in the mainland europe, i.e. last month, there was a surge in house buying in the u.k.
maybe a blip, maybe not | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 4:48:48 AM |
because we are on the margins still, even though we have a bunch of muppets in charge with tunnel vision, we still have a good chance of recovery before the states in the mainland europe
Says who? The IMF and other experts are forecasting the UK to be one of the worst hit countries in the entire world by this recession! | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 4:52:02 AM | We are loosing money faster that rats deserting a sinking ship to Brussels and for what? To support Polish children that live in Poland? Its a farce and almost makes you become racist which incidently I am not.
We need our taxes for us. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 5:53:23 AM | Surely if people want to send money home to their families, they can? If people earn a wage, it's entirely up to them what they do with it. If people are making fraudulent claims for child benefit, the system allows this, the system also allows people in the UK to work while claiming benefit, to claim housing benefit when they are actually employed, to claim council tax discount when they have partners. There are plenty of fraudulent benefit claims made in the UK by British people. Odd however, that when it's claimed that other nationalities do it, it sparks a massive outcry.
If the issue is about sending money home to families, surely if people have a job here they are paying taxes and NI, people don't dictate to me how I spend my wages, why should I dictate to someone else who they give money to. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 6:04:28 AM | Our taxes are also currently propping up the gravy train that is our MP's expenses, an MP was in the press quoted yesterday saying that the £300 000 extra he has claimed over the last few years, he just counts that as being part of his salary.
It's a shame that immigrants get so much bad press for being scroungers when our elected MP's are legally allowed to bleed taxpayers dry, we are paying for their virgin media bills and bath plugs. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 6:05:12 AM | The last poster
the point is, a couple my brother done work for a polish female he was english,after a while they were there she came in from shopping an shouted to her hubby " ive the child benefits forms to fill in" he turned round an said but we havent any kids?? she turned round not to worry all the polish because its a easy scam because the benefit offices dont check,specially by not going to poland to make sure the kids exsist they all do it!
so there taking the michael left ,right an centre knowing we re an easy touch for the scounging polish. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 6:07:32 AM | Are they? Well the girl I know who has 2 jobs and a business and incidentally doesn't have kids, contributes to the UK economy. So, all the Polish don't do that. If some people are on the fiddle, its our benefits system that allows that.
So my point is, don't tar everyone with the same brush just because it suits your anti immigrant argument. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 6:39:30 AM | immigrants have contributed more to the uk than all those sad people who whine about one thing or the other everyday.
HAVE THEY CONTRIBUTED MORE, So if i move to saudi or werever these scoungers come from, there going to let me claim all the benifits an give me a million+ council house to live in off there state,
the only way they contribute is smuggling all the sex slaves in an selling sex.
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 7:08:12 AM |
There is a lot more to it than a simple calculation of what we pay in and what we get back. In my opinion the indirect benefits from increased investment and resulting jobs etc more than make up for the net contribution to institutions. Its a difficult thing to calculate obviously, which is why it would be interesting to see a full analysis.
In other words, you have nothing on which to base your opinion that the EU creates jobs for Britain, yet in a previous post, you asked for details which supported my comment about the £3 in, £2 back fact.
You have no proof that membership of the EU indirectly creates jobs in Britain for the indigenous population (ie those who didn't trek across Europe in search of work here). Yet despite the absence of such proof, you support the idea of being in the EU for that reason.
I never promised any links.
I know you didn't, and I haven't stated that you did. What you HAVE said is:
While I think there are lots of things wrong with the EU, I think the main reason is still knee-jerk, Daily mail-reader type xenophobia. My point was that a large proportion of those most vocal against the EU also rant against "Europeans" and "foregners" in general.
No, read the views on any other website eg BBC have your say, or teletext whenever anything remotely EU-related crops up.
I'm not by any means saying there aren't good and intelligent arguments against the EU, but a large proportion of anti-EU arguments tend to be unintelligent, ignorant and xenophobic ones.
All I've requested is evidence of large amounts of 'xenophobia' amongst europhobes which you claim is in existence. Now, you must have read a great deal more than I on the subject, because I find examples of xenophobia to be extremely rare. I even provided you with a list of the major europhobe sites and requested you to provide examples. Granted, you might be ploughing through them as I write, but they should be easy to spot if they form a 'large proportion' (your words) of their output, as you claimed.
The fact is, very few europhobes base their anger against the EU on the fact that it isn't a British institution and run largely by foreigners. They base it on the cold hard facts of what the EU is and how it operates against the principles of democracy. This is ironic, because it was formed to counter the threat of future dictators, and it would be laughable if it weren't so damn serious.
MSG 96
immigrants have contributed more to the uk than all those sad people who whine about one thing or the other everyday.
Any chance that you can supply evidence in support of that comment, or shall I just accept it as another piece of your ill-informed garbage which litters these forums?
Please feel free to demonstrate that my opinion is incorrect, and I'll begin clearing the tumbleweed away.
MSG 97
It's a shame that immigrants get so much bad press for being scroungers when our elected MP's are legally allowed to bleed taxpayers dry, we are paying for their virgin media bills and bath plugs.
I think if examine the media over a period of time, it probably balances itself out.
The IMF and other experts are forecasting the UK to be one of the worst hit countries in the entire world by this recession!
But we are predicted to recover at a faster rate than the eurozone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7338326.stm
"In its latest economic forecast, the IMF says that world economic growth will slow to 3.7% in 2008 and 2009, 1.25% lower than growth in 2007. The downturn will be led by the US, which the IMF believes will go into a "mild recession" this year.
Growth in the UK will slow sharply to 1.6% in both 2008 and 2009.
It is predicting growth in the eurozone of just 1.4% in 2008 and 1.2% in 2009, with Europe's largest economy, Germany, growing by just 1% in 2009, a sharp revision of its forecast just three months ago."
@ Badge.
You raised some excellent points.
The beef crisis went on way too long, and France wasn't fined by the EU for continuing its ban.
You are right about the CAP - paying farmers NOT to farm is ridiculous, but was caused by paying them too much for produce which couldn't be sold.
Similarly, various countries placed a limit on the numbers of Eastern European workers, some of whom extended that time period when they saw the numbers flooding into Britain.
OT Isn't anybody out there going to present a pro-EU case based on evidence? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 7:21:58 AM | Jay Jay Martin, who runs the Central and East European Information Services in Bristol, said: “Many highly-skilled Polish workers returned home last year to search for more suitable jobs.
“But when they got there the recession had hit Poland and they discovered they were only able to get low-paid and unskilled jobs.
“So they thought, ‘Hang on a minute, I can do this in England for more money so why waste my time here?’
“I have spoken with many who have packed up their belongings and brought their families back to England and plan to stay.”
According to Home Office figures around 100,000 migrants, almost a quarter of the 450,000 Polish immigrants in the UK, quit Britain between 2007 and 2008.
In 2004 the exchange rate was seven zlotys to the pound, but this dropped to just over four. This was expected to spark a mass exodus home, but a drop in available jobs meant over-qualified Polish workers were confronted with the prospect of working as a cleaner for as little as 850 zloty, under £170 a month.
The cost of living in Poland has also increased, with a shared flat costing 600 zloty, roughly £120 a month, and a litre of petrol costing four zloty, the same as Britain.
Jan Mokrzycki, chair of the Federation of Poles in Great Britain, said: “I suppose it is inevitable that people will come back if there are no jobs to suit their skills in Poland.”
In total 895,000 Eastern Europeans have been allowed to work in the UK since the EU expanded to include Eastern Bloc nations in 2004. Of those registered, 199,677 are in receipt of hand-outs, including child benefit, jobseekers allowance and housing support.
However, the figures only cover up to September last year.
In August 2007 there were 112,000 Eastern Europeans claiming £125million a year. That is now expected to soar to £200million.
this is perhaps why people are so fed up with people keep coming here for our benefits | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 7:23:02 AM | "OT Isn't anybody out there going to present a pro-EU case based on evidence?"
Are you kidding? To be shot down in flames by your concise and superior arguments? No way buddy, you win!
DOWN WITH THE EU!! DOWN WITH THE EU!!
I'm voting UKip next general election. Nice work ZG!
(this post is in no way meant to be sarcastic, ironic, inflamatory, defametory, insulting or any other big word which might offend anyone, of any ethnic minority, religion, political background, upbringing or social standing) | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 7:51:46 AM |
In other words, you have nothing on which to base your opinion that the EU creates jobs for Britain, yet in a previous post, you asked for details which supported my comment about the £3 in, £2 back fact.
You quoted actual figures, so I asked where from. All I gave was my opinion, no actual figures for how many jobs are created. It was never meant to be any more than that.
No I don't have proof - if proof existed that we are better off outside the EU then at least one of the mainstream political parties would advocate withdrawal. Top economists, politicians, business experts, you name it, are all split on whether EU membership is beneficial. There is no definitive answer!
You make some good arguments but maybe you should realise that your opinions are also only opinions and not fact.
All I've requested is evidence of large amounts of 'xenophobia' amongst europhobes which you claim is in existence. Now, you must have read a great deal more than I on the subject, because I find examples of xenophobia to be extremely rare.
I'm not going to waste time trawling through the internet only to have you dismiss the evidence. Our definitions of xenophobia probably differ. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 8:18:21 AM |
i think there is a time machine and some of you sad folks are from 1930s germany or maybe the bnp and have ppl assign (the zee guy) to hijack forums like this one,or maybe that's the way the british are..
If you had read the posts like MSG 3, you will have seen that it is because the EU is a nazi organisation that I am against it.
As for accusing me of hijacking the thread, why not state which of my posts on this thread is not related to the topic, and I'll show you why you are incorrect?
Oh, I forgot......you don't deal in facts, only garbage.
I'm glad that you referred to the British in the third person, though......
You quoted actual figures, so I asked where from.
Fair comment, but if you had read as many europhobe articles as you claim to have done, you'll have seen that figure crop up over and over again.
No I don't have proof - if proof existed that we are better off outside the EU then at least one of the mainstream political parties would advocate withdrawal.
So, you don't remember William Hague's proposal to be "in Europe, but not run by Europe"? At the time, the Tories were a mainstream party.
You make some good arguments but maybe you should realise that your opinions are also only opinions and not fact.
Eh??
Which of my comments about the EU have not been supported by a fact or a link containing a relevant fact? Do tell, and I'll rectify the situation!
All I gave was my opinion, no actual figures for how many jobs are created.
So on what did you base your opinion?
I'm not going to waste time trawling through the internet only to have you dismiss the evidence. Our definitions of xenophobia probably differ.
If the evidence is there, how can I possibly 'dismiss' it?
There's no need to trawl through anything - just remember the last time you read a xenophobic article and re-trace your steps.
I cannot see how our opinions of 'xenophobia' can differ, seeing as I can't believe you would use a term that you didn't understand the meaning of.
If it helps, I reckon that 'xenophobia' is an irrational fear or hatred of foreigners which is manifested by word or deed. Now, does that fit your description? | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 8:36:06 AM |
So, you don't remember William Hague's proposal to be "in Europe, but not run by Europe"? At the time, the Tories were a mainstream party.
Exactly, even the eurosceptic Tories want to remain in the EU. Why is that?
Which of my comments about the EU have not been supported by a fact or a link containing a relevant fact? Do tell, and I'll rectify the situation!
I'm not talking about individual points, I'm talking about the analysis of the big picture. Your opinion that we would be better off outside the EU is an opinion, NOT fact. | |
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| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 9:13:35 AM |
Exactly, even the eurosceptic Tories want to remain in the EU. Why is that?
I have no idea - I cannot speak for the Tory party......perhaps they should read the same things that I do?
However, people like Bill Cash and Daniel Hannan raise anti-EU matters on a regular basis. The latter, of course, is the MEP who made Gordon Brown look a fool recently. You might also notice that Dave has forbidden any discussions about the EU prior to the election, probably because he thinks the electorate will view them as a one-issue party, and that there are other more pressing issues to address.
It's noticable, however, that he is due to fulfill his promise to re-align his MEPs with a centre-right alliance, although I don't really trust a word he says, tbh.
Your opinion that we would be better off outside the EU is an opinion, NOT fact.
Well, I raised the matter of our contribution with regard to Britain paying more than it receives - that is a fact.
I raised the matter of the EU's unaccountability to the electorate of Europe - that is a fact.
I raised the matter of the loss of our post offices and the selling of part of the Post Office, both to comply with EU Directives.
Just as with the Wind farm targets and the reduction in our refuse collections - both as a result of EU directives.
I think the bendy bananas received due attention!
We have lost our borders, thanks to the EU. They now stretch around the globe, given that anyone who enters a land which is governed by an EU country will be given the right of EU citizenship. That's a fact.
I've read my entire output on this thread, and I cannot find a single of mine which isn't supported by external evidence. If you can find anything to the contrary, please provide details, and I'll provide it.
I may be a lot of things, but I can support every one of my claims and prejudices.
So, fire away!
Oh, I guess we'll just have to agree that you don't know what 'xenophobia' is.... | |
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