| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 3:05:01 PM | 1: Because we don't want to be led by a bunch of lentil eating tree hugging bleeding heart liberals who think they know what is best for us.
2: One day not so long ago we had 240 pennys in the pound, the next day we had 100 thanks to the EU.
3: We are barely hanging on to a justice system that was once the envy of the world which is now more biased toward the offenders than the victims thanks to interferance from the EU.
4: We appear to be the only country that abides by the sometimes infantile rules they come up.
5: We deploy more troops than any other European country
6: And most importantly we won the war! to the victor goes the spoils, or at least they used to. Bring back the Empire I say. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 5:39:28 PM | the EU is stupid.. yes globalisation and unification is good.. solves wars.. stops criminals escaping..
But the EU is still stupid...
-Single currency.. why call it the euro? what happens when is spreads beyond europe? plus its a silly name.
-What the British call sausages are not sausages! Another silly ruling by the EU. Its our word and our food.
-And there is all the rules that are great on the continent but really don't work here...
But mainly i think as a nation we want to hold on to our independence and to our individuality... Of course i could be wrong and its just plain old xenophobia...
But why not BRING BACK THE EMPIRE? That worked for a time.. and now its a common wealth.. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/1/2009 5:43:04 PM | oh yeah.. i just remembered a few years ago labour tried to force us into the EU.. a direct violation of a law stating that a party cannot force the country into a contract that would out live how long the party is in power..
That of course made people think oh no labour EU and the knee jerk lets have no EU that followed.. that could be it..
Tell me if i actually remembered it wrong and have just written yet more none sense... | |
|
| |
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 1:39:28 AM | Pauline95
Surely if people want to send money home to their families, they can?
Of course they can…but the more is sent away, the less stays here to be recycled into our economy and…charity begins at home.
There are plenty of fraudulent benefit claims made in the UK by British people. Odd however, that when it's claimed that other nationalities do it, it sparks a massive outcry.
This is because if you have enough home grown crooks, you really don’t need imported ones. I’d have thought this was self-explanatory…unless two wrongs make a right, now?
It's a shame that immigrants get so much bad press for being scroungers when our elected MP's are legally allowed to bleed taxpayers dry, we are paying for their virgin media bills and bath plugs.
You’re absolutely right here…however, the (wrong kind of) immigrants cost the economy far more than a few indecent politicians.
Energy Healer msg98
…we re an easy touch for the scounging polish
I think you’re totally wrong here. The vast, vast majority of Poles are here to work and better their lives. They are also here because of specific skill shortages mainly in the building and catering industry. Industries that are deserted by a lot of Brits unfortunately.
the only way they contribute is smuggling all the sex slaves in an selling sex.
Please don’t tar all immigrants like this. The opposite is true. The immense majority of them actually are here to do jobs that Brits don’t want. Also, since the Holy Grail of our economies is Growth, that growth needs to be fed by population growth and with the original resident population in decline, immigrants are needed to sustain that growth.
Now, let’s chose once and forever: either we make enough children to sustain our growth or we import new citizen. (this is another awful consequence of the cult of abortion we have allowed our society to be poisoned with. Ever thought that less abortions means less immigration?)
Mahni msg104
…to hijack forums like this one,or maybe that's the way the british are.. very sad..
Hijack? You could try by debating Zeegary with valid arguments and “rescue” the thread rather than just accuse someone of hijack…and if you think the Brits are sad…that this is, by reflection, a sad country…do I suspect you haven’t chosen to pursue happiness somewhere else because it’s far easier to be here and be destructive rather than to be positive and move some happier place?
You have freedom of movement you know? | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 1:56:53 AM |
Of course they can…but the more is sent away, the less stays here to be recycled into our economy and…charity begins at home.
That's some people's view point. I give to charities here, but I also sponsor a child abroad, if a Polish person wants to give some of their wages to their family, what right do we have to tell them not to? I could give away a hundred quid a month to charities abroad and that would be entirely my decision, the point is, being criticised for sending money away is ridiculous because it's another assumption that all Poles do it and also we have no idea what every single UK person does with their wages. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 2:31:54 AM | Pauline
...if a Polish person wants to give some of their wages to their family, what right do we have to tell them not to?...
We have no right to do that, I agree.
My point is an economic one though, like I said, sending all this revenue abroad (let's remember it's not just the Poles but all the immigrants and the amounts are astonomical) is depriving our economy of revenue matured here but not re-invested here. That is revenue that does not re-circulate here and by reflection create jobs and taxes (which in turn sustain services).
Pauline, I have the same problem with Corporate Profits being earned here by multi-national companies but sent abroad to other countries where the owners of such companies are...or worse even, said profits being sent to tax heavens. (which I would abolish today)
My point is merely a financial one, not an ethic one. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 3:10:34 AM | Your point may be a financial one but it a flawed one. Poles or any other immigrants here in the UK pay the same taxes, both income and purchase taxes, that everyone else pays. They pay the same rents, the same VAT on goods and services and the same community charges that we all do. Any money they may send back to their families is the same disposable income we all have after we have paid out whatever it is that we all pay out and is theirs to do with as they please.
Trade between the UK and Poland has increased by 30% since the large scale influx of our fellow European citizens from Poland. We are not missing out financially and that was confirmed by the House of Lords report into balanced immigration written by Frank Field and others from the House of Lords investigation into current immigration. We are net gainers from immigration.
What do you thing the Auf Weidersien Pet brigade did with their earnings in Germany when there were few well paid British jobs for British workers here in the UK at that time?. Do you really think they spent it all in Germany bolstering their economy? | |
|
| |
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 3:28:19 AM | the last poster
If thats the case then why do the french do everything in there power, to let them set up santatte type camps after knocking the first one down, but dont do anything too stop them coming here an letting them get on lorries,but encouraging them because they dont want them. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 3:35:51 AM |
...Any money they may send back to their families is the same disposable income we all have after we have paid out whatever it is that we all pay out and is theirs to do with as they please....
And I accept that, I am just stressing that that revenue is earned here and in my opinion, should be spent here to create further opportunities.
The govt has just recently released quantitative easing to the tune of many billions. We might not have had to do that to the extent needed (with the danger of inflation and devaluation of your and mine savings) if all that revenue and wealth was kept and used to insure growth and services where it is produced: here.
Don't misunderstand me please, I agree that this would be both difficult and not entirely fair, however it could be regulated to a max amount of xyz per person per year maybe? I am not advocating a stop; I am advocating a regulation.
(and what the British did in Germany was then, what my fellow Italians immigrants did in the US etc etc was then; this is now and many wrongs don't make a right.)
I think the UK place is in Europe 100% because of history, culture and the simple realisation that it is impossible to compete with the emerging economies from without a bigger union like the EU is. My problem with this union is that is based on money, not values.
Anyway, | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 3:56:13 AM | I do not misunderstand you Diabolikk, I fully understand and applaud your desire to improve things here at home by whatever means. However, trying to control what any citizen does with their own money is not just difficult or unfair, it is impossible and completely unfair. Are you suggesting that all British people or others here working have their disposable incomes monitored too and that xyz of each persons money be monitored for what it is used for?.
Spending money that is earned as wages does not increase the wealth of this nation, it is merely part of a cycle of moving money from one pocket to another. It is the wealth that they have helped to create through businesses they work for that contribute to this countries wealth and well being.
The few pennies they send abroad does that for their homeland economy in the same way that money sent home by Mexican immigrants in the USA have made money sent home into the second highest source of national income for Mexico and is used by their government to ease many of the problems Mexico faces. It would make little or no difference for it to be spent here but in helping improve the economy of Poland and other European countries not as wealthy or devoloped to the extent we are here and will benefit us all far more in the long run.
Dismissing the experience of British workers in Germany as 'history' or 'immiaterial' is wrong. Can you imagine the reaction here in the UK if they had not been able to go help Germany with it's massive investment in it's economy at a time when we here in the UK were making zero investments in ours and unemployment was rife due to the Conservative government telling us that unemployment was a price worth paying in the same way that David 'lightweight' Cameron is doing again right now?. I would be willing to bet that German jobs for German people would not have recieved anything like the support here in the UK that British jobs for British workers had recently. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 4:08:41 AM |
Are you suggesting that British people have their disposable incomes monitored too and that xyz of each persons money be monitored for what it is used for.
No. All I am suggesting that a maximum of xyz pp py should be allowed to leave tyhe country where it is produced.
Spending money that is earned as wages does not increase the wealth of this nation, it is merely part of a cycle of moving money from one pocket to another. Precisely. That wealth moving from pocket to pocket here is what keep people in jobs. If that wealth is spent somewhere else then it is somewhere else that that wealth creates opportunities and it is here that it deprives opportunities.
I disagree with the rest of
The few pennies they send abroad... argument but if we don't stop here, we miss the point of the thread so I'll agree to disagree if you like. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 4:21:35 AM | I do not misunderstand you Diabolikk, I fully understand and applaud your desire to improve things here at home by whatever means.
This was the real point of my response to you and maybe I should have ended my post at that point m8. Just trying to fluff it out a bit with my personal take on it. Cheers. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 4:29:46 AM | The thing is, we do spend money abroad, loads of people spend money going abroad, perhaps this might be curtailed by the recession but I've known people to go away for a 2 week holiday away and take a grand plus in spending money.
We don't spend all our money in the UK and for that reason, criticising people who send money home is a bit difficult. If we put a cap on Polish people sending money home, we will need to put the same cap on people holidaying abroad and spending in other countries, both of which would be unworkable. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 4:33:53 AM |
Because we don't want to be led by a bunch of lentil eating tree hugging bleeding heart liberals who think they know what is best for us.
I agree in general.
One day not so long ago we had 240 pennys in the pound, the next day we had 100 thanks to the EU.
I think you will find that was in 1971, i dont know my history of the EU but i don't suppose they had that sort of power to enforce us. I believe the decibel change was a good thing in the long run, through we did lose out at the beginning it has regulated itself. Do you really want to be still dealing in old currency.
I don't know mind the essence of the EU and a united Europe, but some rubbish we get from them is just stupid. It is getting more and more the innocent pay for the guilty
in regards to human rights. What's the point of voting for a parliment that's ruled by another government anyway. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 4:47:18 AM | But we do not see the EU imposing laws or usurping our decomcratic institutions. Everything goes through our own political and legal mechanisms. The EU support and compliment them with legislation that this country does not have because either our own politicians have not seen fit to give us or in some cases have tried to prevent us from having. Improvements in employment rights, equality rights, cheaper and better communications, cheaper flights, open borders and better consumer protections amongst others. I am unaware of any laws or trade agreements that any of the parties in Westminster are planning to repeal any time soon should they be the ones in power.
The EU brings us greater democracy and a stronger voice in the world as well as many other benefits. It would be very hard if not impossible for our own government(s) to have negotiated or implemented these benefits as an independant country.
The British government has introduced many laws and done many things in our name in recent years that have been done without EU interference. The war in Iraq and Afganistan, hunting, smoking bans etc. etc. That they do this proves that they are not controlled or made to do anything by the EU institutions.
Here is a short video that gives some of the benefits that the EU brings to us all. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFyywfHbj3M&feature=PlayList&p=076DFAC291E71024 | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 4:54:30 AM | smoking bans etc. etc. That they do this proves that they are not controlled or made to do anything by the EU institutions.
In March 2004 Ireland became the first country in the world to impose an outright ban on smoking in workplaces. Irish legislation makes it an offence to smoke in workplaces, which has the effect of banning smoking in pubs and restaurants.
Following this successful example, Norway and Italy were next to follow suit. Other countries, such as Britain, Portugal and Sweden, have drafted plans to establish similar laws.
For a complete overview of the evolution of national legislation, the European Network for Smoking Prevention monitors trends towards smoke-free previsions
from
http://www.epha.org/a/1941
I guess we just followed others then.
| |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 6:16:46 AM |
One day not so long ago we had 240 pennys in the pound, the next day we had 100 thanks to the EU
1)absolutely nothing to do with the EU
and 2) are you seriously arguing that pre-decimal currency was better?! | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 7:24:21 AM |
But we do not see the EU imposing laws or usurping our decomcratic institutions. Everything goes through our own political and legal mechanisms. The EU support and compliment them with legislation that this country does not have because either our own politicians have not seen fit to give us or in some cases have tried to prevent us from having.
It really is time that you started researching these matters before making incorrect statements.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2005/02/myth-three.html
The Foreign And Commonwealth Office ( a branch of the British Government) stated:
"Primacy of European Law is not new. It was already well established as a central principle of the single market well before the UK joined the EEC in 1973 and has been reflected in UK law ever since."
How very honest of it! Then this:
"Without primacy of EU law, governments could use national laws to get around common trade rules and standards"
So, the FCO admits that either we make our laws in compliance with those of the EU, or accept the laws (directives) that the EU issues.
The EU brings us greater democracy and a stronger voice in the world as well as many other benefits. It would be very hard if not impossible for our own government(s) to have negotiated or implemented these benefits as an independant country.
So, we didn't trade with the rest of the world prior to 1973? How the heck did we create the Empire, then?
As for your little video, it was a masterpiece of propaganda. Let's examine what it claimed, shall we?
The central character correctly states that the EU has taken away all our power from us, and from our children, etc. Others then raise points that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the EU.
Cheaper flights:- how the EU 'gave' us cheaper flights wasn't explained.
Consumer protection: apparently, the 1961 Consumer Protection Act didn't exist!
The Single Market: apparently, our membership of EFTA in 1968 never happened!
Environmental protection: apparently, the Clean Air Act also never happened.
Student Exchange: so, no space to mention the Twin Town project, which conducted exchanges towards the end of the 1960s.
Protection of Intellectual Property: like that deal with by Copyright Law?
Regional Funds: so local governments had to pay for everything from the Rates before we joined the EU? Course not!
A single voice in world trade: I'll ignore the fact that we are now prevented from having our own voice by the EU (see FCO above) and state that having our own voice didn't harm us for the previous two millennia.
No more borders within Europe: something that Hitler campaigned and died for. It means that criminals can go wherever they please - including here. We are less safe with open borders.
Cheaper and better phone calls: implying that there were no technological advances from the invention of the phone until we joined the EU!
It's safer to eat the food we buy: implying that we didn't have food regulations before 1973. Romanian chicken, anyone?
The EU brought 'peace': yes, it finally ended the Second World War in 1973......
Classic!
The British government has introduced many laws and done many things in our name in recent years that have been done without EU interference.
Only because those laws did not infringe EU law (see FCO above)
what are your opposition to the ECHR ?
Remarkably similar to that which I have towards those who mangle our language and who fail to address topics.
1)absolutely nothing to do with the EU
Really?
http://www.ecu-activities.be/documents/publications/publication/1994_3/moore.html
The title is a bit of a giveaway!
The Work of the UK Decimal Currency Board (1967-71) and Possible Lessons for the Changeover to a Common European Currency.
IN 1967, Wilson applied to join the EEC. At that time, even the European single currency didn't exist, yet here were our masters already discussing it. It is obvious that Wilson wanted to decimalize our currency (and other measures) to ensure a smooth transition to our eventual membership, given that most EEC countries were already decimal.
"The UK changeover was undoubtedly facilitated by general acceptance that our £.s.d. system was out-dated and that a decimal one would make money calculations easier in schools, offices and shops with no continuing need for special cash registers and other machines. It may be that an early need in the European Union will be to give more publicity to the advantages of a common currency and how these in the long run will help everyone."
"Lack of "associability" need not be a serious objection to the adoption of a common European currency even though it would present presentational and other difficulties."
Very true! Even Brown accepts that Britain won't 'buy' membership of the euro. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 9:48:55 AM | I'll have a go at explaining that EU law primacy thing for you. Lets use the Lisbon Treaty as an example, everyone hates that one for sure.
The Lisbon treaty over which many people are demanding, quite rightly, a referendum, is an example of EU law not being allowed to be undermined by member states introducing their own conflicting or restrictive legislation. The document, which the EU would like people to regard as their constitution, is hundreds and hundreds of pages of the most detailed legal speak you ever saw and is about as easy to read as the Honk Kong phone book. It has been poured over word by word by the greatest legal and political minds in Europe. Every nation has contributed to it's creation and every nation has had it's concerns addressed and compromises reached. It has been called 'outstanding' by leaders of nations not adopting it or involved in it's creation and is being used as a model for the coming North American Union and the stalled Mediterainian Union. It is one of the finest international agreements ever, full stop.
Having been full reviewed and revised by the governments of every single member state including the UK in Westminster and the House of Lords, all nations have signed up to it and have shook hands on a deal.
The FCO remarks that you refer to mean that as part of that agreement we have undertaken not to implement laws and policies that break that agreement and that should we wish to do something like that, we should leave the EU or risk prosecution for breaching that agreement. It would be similar to Scotland using it's new assembly to introduce laws that went against the agreements and laws of the UK as well as it showing that our word as a nation stood for nothing. It is one of the finest international agreements ever made in the history of the world and will make Europe and the UK a much better place to live and work. Making ad hoc independant changes to the treaty by any nation would be like an employer writing in some extra duties in pencil on his copy of your employment contract but not yours. Thats why it's primacy exists, every nation has to agree changes not just one.
Funnily enough, when the Lisbon Treaty is fully signed onto the statute books of all member countries after the Yes vote that Ireland will undoubtedly have next time, it will be easier for countries to leave the EU if they choose to rather than 'imprisoning' us like many suggest.
P.S. Still not ringing you m8. Everyone else seems to have picked it up OK even though it's complex. I'll struggle by without for now ta. Cheers | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 10:04:18 AM |
The FCO remarks that you refer to mean that as part of that agreement we have undertaken not to implement laws and policies that break that agreement
Precisely my point!
The Government of Great Britain is not allowed to create any laws which are incompatible with those created by our true masters in Brussels. The Lisbon Treaty has nothing to do with it - as the FCO pointed out in 2005, that 'primacy' had long been established.
Don't forget, when Lisbon/Constitutional Treaty was first being discussed, europhiles were stating that it was merely a 'tidying up' exercise with regard to previous treaties - and they were right, obviously!
So, you accept the EU law has primacy over British law? This is my major objection to the EU.
why don't you state your what your opposition is/are ?
It's a shame you don't have a long memory. You accused me earlier of hi-jacking this thread (a fact that you weren't able to support, but my hopes weren't high, tbh).
You are now asking me for my views on ECHR, which is nothing to do with the topic under discussion. So, you tell me I'm hi-jacking a thread, then ask me to discuss a totally different topic?
Look, when the topic under discussion is ECHR, then I might contribute.......until then, kindly stick to the topic here.
HTH
And OP, kindly don't ask for my help then delete the relevant email. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 10:41:14 AM | It might well be your very point but I think you missed mine. I'm happy that this is your main objection to the EU because I'm happy to lay those concerns to rest for you if I can. The Lisbon Treaty was an example I used to show you how the primacy things worked but I could have used any of the laws or agreements from the inception of the EU. I just thought most people would relate to it rather than CAP or something else less complex than Lisbon.
Right, as simply as I can put it.................
The British government is free to put onto the statute book any legislation they want too. Just like they have done with all those terror laws that have infringed and curtailed your freedoms so unjustly and without much cause or protest. Our government does not have to give any regard to anyone else other than the people who elect it. They are answerable to no other nation or power on earth either inside or outside the EU.
No-one from within the EU or from outside it can do anything other than approach the international justice and legal system to have any new laws adjudicated upon by the international courts or the UN. If they wanted too that is, but there are no such laws I could imagine them passing that would cause anyone to do that. Only reintroducing slavery or some such horror would do that.
How am I doing?.
Britain can pass any laws it wants and no-one can stop it whether we are in the European Union or not. OK now?.
What it cannot do is to write new bits of it independantly. We have an agreement and since we agreed to it, we should honour it, it is if nothing else a legal contract between you and the EU not between your government and the EU. But please remember, if we don't like it we can reject it and the EU cannot stop us. We are an independant sovereign nation who are free to do what we want.
I'm tempted to go on a tell you more about how the British government and the British people wrote by far and away the greatest proportion of it, but I'll post what I've done so far and see if your concerns about EU have been put at ease. | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 11:01:58 AM | | you mean the lisbon treaty which the irish people said no to? and yet have to vote again lol when they say no again whats the odds on having to vote again and again? democracy in action! i think not lol | |
|
| Why are so many British people so opposed to the EU ?
Posted: 4/2/2009 11:33:36 AM | Hello badge mate, how's you?.
Yes, I mean that very one, the one they will be voting on again after it was taken away and amended in line with concerns they had with it. Amendments that have been accepted by every other member nation. Thats how it all works.
After making the necessary changes agreed with the Irish government, they are having another vote because their constitution demands it. The EU, if it were the ogre many think, or had the primacy either politically or legally that so many accuse them of having, they wouldn't even bother with another vote would they?. They would just plow on regardless. This modification process has happened many many times already. It's had to get through 27 different parliaments of such diversity and political difference as you can ever imagine. Of course it's been modified, it couldn't have been otherwise. Countries that have been allowed a vote and countries that have not been allowed a vote have all sent it backwards and forwards with amendments and compromises being reach as a result.
The reason they are being asked to vote again so quickly is because of it's importance to every single one of us who live in Europe, including the UK. The gains that are to be had by it are immense and will revolutionise much of the way we all live today.
But you do not need to concern yourself that another NO vote will result in Ireland being asked to vote a third time. A no vote means that they will be asked to leave the EU and things will progress without them. The same will happen to us if we get a referendum and vote NO too. I do however think it would turn both Britain and Ireland into a base for the unemployed of Europe. A second no vote in Ireland will not signal the end to the EU that many believe, it will lead only to a Europe without them in it. | |
|
Home
login 
