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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/17/2009 10:04:45 PM | Surely it is as much a crime for you to exist, as for G-d to exist? Should we lock you up?
Reality is my prison. Oh, I escaped for a while when I was a Christian, but I was caught again.
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/18/2009 12:51:07 AM |
Surely it is as much a crime for you to exist, as for G-d to exist? Should we lock you up?
If my existence is a crime, it is an involuntary one, and though I may negate the crime by depriving myself of that existence, in so doing, in some places, an unsuccessful attempt at extinguishing one's own existence is also a crime.
Existence is a bit like being on remand for some mishap that was not of your own making. You can do the time hard, or you can do the time easy, until your remand expires, and you return from whence you came.....oblivion.
Whether existence is a reward or a punishment..or some mix of the two, is a matter of personal experience and personal philosophy..... | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/18/2009 1:00:44 AM | chelloveck, nowadays I feel just like what you are describing there.
Like all roads lead to, no demand, that acceptance is the only viable reward.
Fighting the journey is really just picking my poison.
Denial, anger, bargaining or depression.  | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/18/2009 7:40:35 AM | Vancer.....the journey is the thing....and enjoying the experience while one may.
Some people get hung up on who packaged this trip, and who's Travel Guide is the best for getting to some unimaginably dreary and boring imaginary destination, and obeying the minutae of the travel operator's rather bizarre inconsistent whims in fear of ending up stocking the furnace instead of enjoying the first class passenger's upper deck.
No need to fight the journey, whether one chooses to be a passive passenger on the conveyer belt to oblivion, or a courageous adventurer making the most of their time on the conveyer belt, that is the existential conundrum. The choice is always ours. What happens after we get tipped off the conveyer belt, is pretty moot.
I am unconcerned as to whether God exists or not, though I tend to think that if a god, or gods exist; he, she, they or it are probably unlike any diety that has been conceived by any religion / cult / sect on this 3rd rock from the sun. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/18/2009 11:14:01 AM | RE Msg: 26 by CountIbli:
Reality is my prison. That sounds like a very depressing way to see the world. I think it would be prudent to realise that it is helpful to many that realise that they don't have to see things as a prison.
RE Msg: 27 by chelloveck:
If my existence is a crime, it is an involuntary one, and though I may negate the crime by depriving myself of that existence, in so doing, in some places, an unsuccessful attempt at extinguishing one's own existence is also a crime.
Existence is a bit like being on remand for some mishap that was not of your own making. You can do the time hard, or you can do the time easy, until your remand expires, and you return from whence you came.....oblivion.
Whether existence is a reward or a punishment..or some mix of the two, is a matter of personal experience and personal philosophy..... Exactly. There is no necessity at all to see your existence as a crime. You make your own prison.
RE Msg: 29 by chelloveck:
I am unconcerned as to whether God exists or not, though I tend to think that if a god, or gods exist; he, she, they or it are probably unlike any diety that has been conceived by any religion / cult / sect on this 3rd rock from the sun. There are thousands of religions and far more than thousands of different understandings of G-d and/or gods. So I doubt that you do know every conception of deity to state that. But I would agree that if you believe this, then the real concept of a deity is far different than the concepts that you have understood about deism, which only goes to suggest that it would be helpful to you, to understand the universe, to expand your consciousness to include more expansive concepts than the ones you currently envisage.
It takes work to understand a being that is very different from us. Work on it, and you'll get closer to the truth. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/19/2009 2:15:31 AM | I believe that God exists in my life for many reasons.
He saved my life many times when I've made stupid choices.
He gives me companionship when I feel all lonely and by myself.
When I become fearful, He stands beside me so that I feel brave and confident towards my enemy (who or whatever that may be).
He expects the best from me to show and rewards me for it.
He makes me aware of my convictions and puts me back in my place when I'm out of line.
But most of all, He placed me on this Earth by giving me life. To me, this says that I as a human being have a purpose on this Earth.
Now I will admit that there are certain scriptures that I don't think are true, like all that stuff about demons and going to hell and all that jive. From what I understand, that stuff was injected into the Bible during the Dark Ages because 1) people were fascinated with dark places and monsters at that time and 2) so the Church could keep people in line by making sure them tithes and offerings came in without glitch. Besides, there are certain stories IN the Bible that couldn'tve possibly happened physically, but more in an allegorical sense; perhaps to serve as a lesson teacher to those that read it so that it may be applied our lives-to somewhat serve as a structual guide to us so that we may deal with certain situations accordingly, like this quote (the bolded portion):
The fact that God created humans to begin with. He had angels, yet they weren't enough? Why would a god "desire" or "need" to create man in his own image? Why would he go about doing so when he new how much suffering would ensue by doing so? Why would he let Satan in the garden? That's the main thing I find illogical.
You're talking about the book of Genesis, Chapter 3 (read in it's entirety) when the serpent came into presence of Adam and Eve in order to convince them to eat the apple from the Tree of Life (or tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil). To me, that serves as lesson that we can (and could've) applied to MANY of the recent events in the world. 9-11 (IMO) would be the PERFECT example to which it would apply to.
NOTE: I know 9-11 was a tragic event, but I do think that God had it happen for a good reason. But because the OP doesn't want any "Bible Preaching" in this thread, I won't go any further. But to sum it up in a nutshell, it was a TEST of how far we've (U.S. citizens) evolved as a people and a nation. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/19/2009 6:30:48 PM | Now I will admit that there are certain scriptures that I don't think are true, like all that stuff about demons and going to hell and all that jive. From what I understand, that stuff was injected into the Bible during the Dark Ages . . .
I'm curous as to the manuscript evidence for this view. What dates does your view hold for the "Dark Ages," for such redactions to consist? Those biblcial books which contain such things originate from before 70 AD. The copies do date much later. Which brings me back to the question of the manuscript evidence. Those kind of readings certainly existed by the 4th century.
Chapter 3 (read in it's entirety) when the serpent came into presence of Adam and Eve in order to convince them to eat the apple from the Tree of Life (or tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil).
According to the account (Genesis 2) Adam was forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil(apple.) God did not forbid them from eating from the tree of life. But after the fall, the story goes, God removes them from the garden so they do not also eat from the tree of life and so they would not live forever.
In the Latin the word for "evil" and the word for "apple" are spelled the same. lol | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/19/2009 7:02:43 PM |
I'm curous as to the manuscript evidence for this view. What dates does your view hold for the "Dark Ages," for such redactions to consist? Those biblcial books which contain such things originate from before 70 AD. The copies do date much later. Which brings me back to the question of the manuscript evidence. Those kind of readings certainly existed by the 4th century.
This was brought to my attention by the pastor of my church. Therefore, I will honestly admit I have no black-n-white paper evidence at this time. However, I am digging up the info to back this up as we speak.
According to the account (Genesis 2) Adam was forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil(apple.) God did not forbid them from eating from the tree of life. But after the fall, the story goes, God removes them from the garden so they do not also eat from the tree of life and so they would not live forever.
In the Latin the word for "evil" and the word for "apple" are spelled the same. lol
Yes, Adam was forbidden to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil-not the Tree of Life. Usually, I wind up using the two interchangably; I need to stop that and make sure I get it right. But the serpent did appear before Adam and Eve in Genesis, Chapter 3; that's made clear in Verse 1. Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis do not mention the serpent at anypoint. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/19/2009 8:41:23 PM |
Reality is my prison.
That sounds like a very depressing way to see the world. I think it would be prudent to realise that it is helpful to many that realise that they don't have to see things as a prison.
Reality is a prison in that I'm bound by the laws of nature. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/24/2009 5:56:16 AM | RE Msg: 34 by CountIbli:
Reality is a prison in that I'm bound by the laws of nature. The laws of nature only put a limit on what you can do, like not being able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. But I can still get around quite well without that ability. That's hardly imprisonment.
Besides, a fundamental principle of our investigations into science, is that even if the laws of nature are immutable, our knowledge of them is not, and we often get things wrong. So what we found impossible 20 years ago, was the possible of 10 years ago, and the easy thing of today. The same is true of the future.
So to me, the laws of nature do not imprison us at all, but free us and help us, in every way. Those who see themselves as being in prison, are imprisoned only by their own minds. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/24/2009 2:31:39 PM |
My case for/against god(s).
For the existance of god(s) = zero evidence.
Against the existance of god(s) = zero evidence.
What is beyond space?
Don't know.
Why does everything die?
Don't know.
How come there are so many levels of existance?
There is?
When you stand and look at the stars, great scenery or a new born child....What is that that your feeling?
When I look at the stars, I marvel at how small and how insignificant I am....and I'm blown away at all that I don't know and will never know.
When I look at a newborn child, I'm hit with a mixed bag of emotions, ranging all the way from pure wonderment to a feeling of great sadness ...hey you asked.
A feeling of being part of something more, something greater? (or is that just me? :o))
I feel very connected to my fellow man, but not in a spiritual way - the connectness I feel is in our shared humanity (or shared human experience if you will).
And no, for me there is nothing greater that what's here right now - and no, that's not a depressing thought.
As far a being/feeling part of something more, my gawd...isn't the fact that you/me/each and every one of us a held the one in how many millions genetic lottery winning ticket number enough??? What's wrong in being perfectly happy and contented with the fact that we got to walk on this planet and be part of it's history?? Why does there have to be more???
I find it ironic when people tell me they feel sorry for me when it's me who feels sorry for them - to me, it's them (not me) who fail to see the beauty and the miracle that life is, or else they wouldn't need to invent/believe in some imaginary god(s) and/or some promise of eternal life to help them cope with the life they have right here right now.
Anyway - to each their own. I don't claim to know anything for sure - like I said earlier, so far, the evidence is zero on both (or all) sides. And I'm fine with that...:)))
JMO | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/24/2009 3:49:42 PM |
What is beyond space?
The unknown
Why does everything die?
Everything needs to change and/or move on otherwise it/we stagnate
How come there are so many levels of existence?
I can only presume that was the Plan made by far superior intelligent beings and NO, mortals may never now the answer.
How incredible is it that our genetics evolved a trigger that prevents species interbreeding......afterall, we all evolved from the same primordial soup.
Incredible, maybe but it doesn't stop them trying.
If this wasn't the case, evolution wouldn't have taken place at all and we wouldn't be here. (I do believe in evolution so pointing out why or how the trigger came about isn't for this thread)
Creation or evolution - it still needs a plan.
When you stand and look at the stars, great scenery or a new born child....What is that that your feeling?
A feeling of being part of something more, something greater? (or is that just me? :o))
You and billions of other, yes. When I look at the stars I'm looking back at home... what interests me more is where I'm heading too and being a g/dad for a second time soon will not alter that.
No doubt these (or similar) are questions that led to the bible in the first place, based on mans innate need to comprehend what/how/why he is.[
Absolutely, plus the greedy **stards that would have you believe your very soul depended on it!
So, what are your arguments for or against God?
Look for the name "skypoetone" throughout this forum. ;) | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/25/2009 4:25:43 PM |
For the existance of god(s) = zero evidence.
Against the existance of god(s) = zero evidence.
If god(s) doesn't exist then we would expect there to be no evidence of god(s). The lack of evidence for god(s) is evidence against the existence of god(s).
Think of it this way. Today I came home from work and the door to my apartment building was locked. My front door was locked and bolted. My back door was also bolted. None of my belongings were disturbed, broken, or missing. All the windows were closed and undamaged. Nobody reported anyone entering or leaving the building. Now, what is the more plausible explanation for this:
1) A thief picked the locks on the doors and entered my apartment. He stole nothing, broke nothing, and disturbed nothing. He was not seen entering or leaving the building. He locked all the doors before leaving. He escaped out the window, which he closed behind him.
2) There was no thief.
I know god(s) doesn't exist in the same sense that I know no thief entered my apartment today. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 4/26/2009 2:56:39 PM | RE Msg: 38 by CountIbli:
If god(s) doesn't exist then we would expect there to be no evidence of god(s). The lack of evidence for god(s) is evidence against the existence of god(s). That wouldn't really be scientific. A true hypothesis would be postulating what the universe would be like, if there was no G-d, and then going out and comparing your hypothesis to reality. I put the odds of someone predicting everything in the universe exactly as it is, with no surprises, at well over 1 in 10,000 trillion.
That doesn't guarantee that there is a G-d. But it shows me that scientifically, one cannot be confident of the opposite.
Think of it this way. Today I came home from work and the door to my apartment building was locked. My front door was locked and bolted. My back door was also bolted. None of my belongings were disturbed, broken, or missing. All the windows were closed and undamaged. Nobody reported anyone entering or leaving the building. Now, what is the more plausible explanation for this:
1) A thief picked the locks on the doors and entered my apartment. He stole nothing, broke nothing, and disturbed nothing. He was not seen entering or leaving the building. He locked all the doors before leaving. He escaped out the window, which he closed behind him.
2) There was no thief.
I know god(s) doesn't exist in the same sense that I know no thief entered my apartment today. Interesting example. I had that experience once. I came back to a friends, everything seemed fine, nothing was taken, nothing was broken, nothing was disturbed. We sat talking for about 10 minutes. Then, out of nowhere, someone crawled out from under his bed, and ran out the door. We chased him, but he was too fast for us.
It's a real story. It happened. So yes, I can understand your reluctance to believe in G-d. But your example doesn't quite match with reality. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 5/14/2009 4:53:07 AM | | God seen by millions as the 1 and only true being, If we believe In god then we must by defanition believe In the devil.. I suggest all the people who believe In him watch the film the passion of christ..How could a father "god" sit bk and watch his only son beaten In such ways It makes any human being cringe, then to be nailed to a cross and left to suffer, If the devil had done this to his son would you not call him cruel and sadistic Is It a case of 1 rule for him. God works In mysterious ways your not kidding and Is a cop out for so many people who havn't got answers, the bible was written by men not god. Religion Is a very powerful thing and a comfort for so many In need but also must take responsability for the actions It causes, war for example or sin the church Is the biggest siner of all, If life isn't for living what the hell are we here for to just exsist I think not. there Is good and evil In this world and It stems from ourselves, the only god you should worship Is one who Isn't a sadistic being that requires you live to his rules and get on your knees when ever you need a hand... | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 5/17/2009 6:44:49 PM | The now understood and known laws of our known universe are consistent. We can have science and engineering. The underlying physics and laws of this universe are God's laws, His making. We have to obey them. There is no other way. None. Since we cannot change the universe that is.
As for the Christian view of God, the Jewish prophet Isaiah is cited regarding God's servant, (Isaiah 52:13-53:12) v.6, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. " And in v.1o ". . . when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, . . ." speaking of this servan's death (v.6) and resurrection from the dead. And to the Christian this is God's unique Son, ". . . God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8 - the Letter to the Romans by the Apostle Paul) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. " (Romans 10:9.) And to be saved is to receive the LORD's promise as spoken by the Jewish prophet Jeremiah, ". . . for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. "(31:34.) | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:38:54 AM | Actually, I can make an argument for and against a god in the same sentence:
There is no evidence for there being a god except for the precise physical laws of the universe that allowed all this to happen as it has. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 5/21/2009 5:56:00 PM | My arguement for the existence of the divine is to be found in evidence subjective to human culture and the collective experience that gave rise to human culture in all of it's various forms.
This is the proof, and the only proof that nuemrous portions of human culture can point to to justifiy it's existence ... human culture validates human culture. Take love for instance; how different is it trying to prove the existence of love as it is proving the existence of the divine? Do we thus state that love doesn't exist? Despite all of the varied people that experience it and express their understanding of it?
Asking a person who has never had a divine experience, and refuses to even acknoweldge such experineces as anything but psychopathology, is a lot like asking a sociopath to tell us about love and relatedness. WE could, but prepare for love to be anlaytically reduced to something meaningless like a "bio-chemcial response to some outwar stimulus that will run through the system and wear off in 7 years".
Nah. I ask the poet about love. Just like I'll ask the poet about the divine, and about most other things that I want something more than a lowest common denominator answer to.
The problem with religion in the West is that since the Big One took over it has mistaken itself for Science, and has analyzed and reduced our notion of the divine to smaller than life proportions that man can know and talk about as casually and with as much convictions as a toaster or a car engine. There is thus no respect for the "Terrible Mystery" of the divine, and thus no respect for other cultural expressions of the divine.
So, there is my argument/s, in brief, both for and against "God". | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 5/23/2009 10:43:06 AM | If God were charged with the crime of existing then there wouldn't be sufficient evidence to convict. I'd like to respectfully submit exhibit A: 
http://heritage.stsci.edu/gallery/galindex.html
You won't be disappointed. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 5/23/2009 3:12:46 PM | Message #45
Interesting crime scene photography...........where are the mug shots of the suspect??
The graphic images that you tender as evidence provide no proof of the existence of a god or gods, at least as are claimed to exist by the various religions and sects that curse this planet. As awesome and as beautiful as the images are, they represent parts of the cosmos that were in existence well before the putative 6,000 or 7,000 years atrributed by the biblical literalists to the beginning of the "creation" as recorded in the Judaic creation myth.
It is difficult to credit that a God with the power to create such a splendid spectacle could be so easily satisfied with the adulation of such puny and pissant creatures as homo sapiens, and even more amazingly, that he has a personal prurient interest in my sexual behaviour!!!!! yet, remakably, many humans do believe that this is so....go figure. | |
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| He/She/It/Them - Yes/No/Maybe
Posted: 5/23/2009 11:13:07 PM | | That so many concepts of God(s) have been, will be and are being accepted, acted on, adulterated, allowed for, apologised, argued, asked about, backed away from, banked on, bashed, believed, bandied about, blended, blown off, boned up on, brought up, brushed off, called upon, cashed in on, catered to, celebrated, chalked up, championed, cheated on, cheered on, chewed over, chucked out, clamped down on, come upon, come up against, come up with, conjured, considered, counted on, created, debated, dipped into, disagreed with, discussed, dished up, dreamed up, drummed in, dumbed down, dwelled on, eaten up, emoted, embraced, emulated, eulogised, evolved, examined, experienced, exploited, extrapolated, fallen in love with, followed, felt, fought over, filtered, forgotten, fessed up to, fiddled with, gotten off on, given up, given over to, glossed over, gnawed on, grabbed onto, grown into, grown away from, grown out of, guessed at, hailed, hammered away at, handed down, hankered for, harped on, hated, heard, held up, hoped for, hunkered down with, hushed up, ignored, illusionary, imagined, intuited, invoked, ironed out, jacked up, jazzed up, joked about, jumped at, jumped on, kept private, kept up with, kicked around, kissed up to, killed for, knocked down, lapped up, lashed out at, latched onto, leaned on, learned about, let in, let go of, lived with, lied about, listened to, looked for, looked at, looked down on, lorded over, lucked out with, magical, manipulated, made off with, made up, mixed up, marketed, measured, messed with, missed, misunderstod, mobilised, mocked, monopolised, mulled, noted, nuanced, nutty, opened to interpretation, opted for, opted out of, owed, owned, paid for, passed around, passed down, passed on, passed over, picked on, pictured, played with, pointed out, pondered, praised, preached, pricey, proclaimed, published, pushed, put up with, quaint, queried, quoted, questioned, quieted, rattled off, rationalised, reached for, reborn, reckoned with, reconciled, refuted, rejected, renewed, reported, roomy, ruley, rushed into, satirised, scary, seen, sent up, saved, settled on, shoved down throats, sexy, shushed, sold, startling, studied, stumbled upon, sung about, sworn by, swept over, taken as truth, taken as fiction, talked about, tapped into, thanked, thought of, toasted, told of, touched upon, tried on, trotted out, tuned in, twisted, understood, used, valued, venerated, verbalised, waded through, walked with, watched, watered down, woken up to, worried about, worshipped, written about, 'X'ed, yacked about, yielded to and zeroed in on...I can see a strong case being made for the existence of God(s) - if only as a construct. | |
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| He/She/It/Them/Me/You/Us - Yes/No/Maybe/Don't Give a Rat's Fundament
Posted: 5/24/2009 7:49:18 AM | Message #47
If a construct is the most that god(s) can be, then multitudes of humanity have suffered unimagineable cruelty and died pointlessly for figments of imagination.
That clerics and others have made an industry out of peddling the idea of god, doesn't demonstrate that god(s) exist(s), only that they may possibly believe it so (and possibly that they may not believe it so, but it being such a good little earner, it is profitable to affect that they do). That others may contend against the idea of god(s), doesn't give life to the existence of god(s)....only life to the debate about the idea of god(s)existing, being at best, a dubious proposition. | |
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| Your case for/against God.
Posted: 5/24/2009 2:40:47 PM |
If a construct is the most that god(s) can be, then multitudes of humanity have suffered unimagineable cruelty and died pointlessly for figments of imagination.
That clerics and others have made an industry out of peddling the idea of god, doesn't demonstrate that god(s) exist(s), only that they may possibly believe it so (and possibly that they may not believe it so, but it being such a good little earner, it is profitable to affect that they do). That others may contend against the idea of god(s), doesn't give life to the existence of god(s)....only life to the debate about the idea of god(s)existing, being at best, a dubious proposition. There is the underlying existence which has always existed. Absolute nothingness never existed, therefore there has always been an existence.
Try imagining, absolute nothingness. No space, no time, no light, no darkness, no anything. | |
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| He/She/It/Them - Yes/No/Maybe
Posted: 5/25/2009 2:33:09 PM |
That so many concepts of God(s) have been, will be and are being accepted, acted on ... ... I can see a strong case being made for the existence of God(s) - if only as a construct.
The existence of the cultural construct of the divine is a matter that is undeniable. No case needs be made. There is more than ample proof. But the existence of such constructsa no more dimishes the possible existence of the divine than a light bulb dimishes the possible existence of electricity.
The question is, how is it that all of these constructs are coming into being independently of each other, over vast areas of time and space?
Man's experience of what might best be called "the divine" is the catalyst for all such cultural constructs. And the experience is as much of an established fact as the constructs themselves. It can and has been measured. And yet "religious" people keep insisting that God is a physical reality, that he is "sitting on some cloud in the sky", and atheist keep insisting that if they don't find him there he must not exist.
Are the gods real? Are love and hate real? Is music real? It's really not that complex a matter ... until the entire point of one's ideology becomes a matter of teaching others how wrong they are for and how right you are. The atheists have surely carried the worst part of Christianity forward in this regard. No respect for human experience. No respect for one's fellow man. And you get what you give. Tell me the Law of Reciprocity is not real. | |
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