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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/11/2007 5:58:04 AM | Well said and I agree.
Religions success depends on getting the children as early as possible when they are most impressionable and will believe ANYTHING an adult tells them (Think of Santa, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny).
Just look at what constant Brain Washing can do with Suicide Bombers, Heavens Gate Cult-the men castrated themselves.
How is Catholicism any less barbaric with its Blood Rights (Holy Communion) and No it the wine is not representative of Christs Blood - A true Catholic is taught that it really becomes His blood = Vampires
Eating the wafer that becomes his flesh= Cannibals.
Yet all of this is accepted without question because of that early indoctrination.
Why do you think they are so against Birth Control of any kind ?
The Church wants more kids to brain wash and expand their control. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/11/2007 7:10:28 AM | ^^^
And the guy in the funny hat now claims salvation is only avaiable through them...all I'm waiting for is for him to finish the real sentence and to stop leaving off "at the low low introductory price of..."
If a so called religion subjugates its followers and / or attempts to subjugate anyone based on the XX or XY chromosomes, claims to be the "one true" way, tells you to take everything on "faith", and ignores its' own history...well...I'd avoid that like the plague.
At least with the church of the flying spaghetti monster, when we hold spaghetti dinner fundraisers, it truly is "take this and eat it, for this is my body...given for you"...
Cheers! | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/11/2007 10:34:36 AM | I try not to jump to conclusions about people, though I don't always succeed. I try to respect the views of others insofar as religion goes... but if they state something as fact when it blatantly isn't (like the retards who claim the holocaust never happened or the Hitler was an atheist), I will attempt- sometimes nicely, sometimes viciously- to convince them otherwise.
As far as religion goes, I tolerate the views of others, so long as they tolerate mine. I see no reason such actions cannot occur, as it really isn't all that hard. The moment someone tells me my beliefs are wrong, however, and the goloves come off: I've studied various religions, as well as a great deal of history. Those who are so deluded as to believe themselves to be exclusively correct will be staring down centuries of atrocities and contradictions should they try and force their view upon me.
But even if a person is a hardcore bible thumper, so long as they respect my right to have a differing opinion, I respect their right to the same. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/11/2007 5:52:08 PM | I would never say someone's beliefs are crazy talk, but I was raised Roman Catholic and lost it when I went through adolescence. I am intimately aware of the damage dogma and belief in the unsupportable (not a slam, but it is called 'faith' for a reason) can do, such as making humans unaware of the incredible beauty of the relatedness of us to the rest of the molecules in the universe. Inserting a middleman in the existence of humans waters it down. That's vague, but I'm trying to be concise.
I view belief in anything not approached scientifically as delusion. I have a heart, I love and cry. I don't know why people can see cartoons are obviously made up but deities aren't. I don't mean to offend, but, to me, it's like asking "Do you see adults who believe in the Tooth Fairy as having a problem?"
If you worship kindness, or nature, or humans, I have lots of respect for you. If you worship a deity, I am what you would call arrogantly sure you are deluded. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 4:17:07 AM | "I'm curious to know how many here respect others beliefs, even when they differ from your own and how many think that all religious people are brainwashed idiots or all spiritual people are self-deluded egoists. How many people casually apply some blanket derogatory statement to all people in a religious or a spiritual community?"
no respect needed or given here, even to old people who believe in that god/heaven bullshit (they are old, and should know better by now lol). 150 years after darwin, for example, no person has any reason to be religious, and with the 1 million dollar prize from james randi foundation still unclaimed (obviously), theres no reason for anyone to believe in the paranormal either. call this a derogatory blanket coverage if you will (i'm ok with that) but people holding on to supernatural belief systems are always found to have at least some of the following characteristics: ignorance, laziness, history of indoctrination, mental disorder/cognative deficiency, stupidity or intellectual dishonesty. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 7:25:11 AM |
I respect other peoples beliefs,The only ones I don't respect are those who try to force there beliefs on me.
Shouldn’t the same apply to those with disbeliefs?
Personally I see myself as a neutral, it’s far more interesting… and great fun! :) | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 9:11:48 AM | "no respect needed or given here, even to old people who believe in that god/heaven bullshit (they are old, and should know better by now lol). 150 years after darwin, for example, no person has any reason to be religious, and with the 1 million dollar prize from james randi foundation still unclaimed (obviously), theres no reason for anyone to believe in the paranormal either. call this a derogatory blanket coverage if you will (i'm ok with that) but people holding on to supernatural belief systems are always found to have at least some of the following characteristics: ignorance, laziness, history of indoctrination, mental disorder/cognative deficiency, stupidity or intellectual dishonesty. "
Andy...can you prove to me that love exists? How about hate?
You seem pretty sure about something that cannot be proven and you also seem pretty hostile. Where does that hostility come from?
Anyway. There is a misconception that only the religious are close-minded...bigots come in all shapes and sizes. Today in our society, some religions are off-limits while others are not. I'll leave it at that. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:05:36 AM | Some aetheists are as "flat-earth" about human spirituality as some Christians are about human science and the physical universe. Not surprisingly perhaps, given the historical circumstances modern Science evolved under.
Nevertheless, flat-earthed is flat-earthed... and the two poles of the equation share that much in common.
atldc03 asks a good question; can you prove that love or hate exist? And if given the choice between the poets desciption of love or the scientists, which is more meaningful and captures the actual experience better? Would only an idiot believe that one's "love is a red, red rose"... or would the real idiot miss the point, one way or another?
Show me the evidence that religious people are less succesful in life than aetheists. And show me the opposite, that aetheists are less successful in life. Different people have different experiences, and different reactions to experiences.
Human spirituality is a very real matter of fact, that cropped up all on it's own in many different places all at once, and which would continue to manifest itself in whatever cultural forms were convenient even if all knowledge of religion was wiped clean.
In the end, reciprocation is always the best policy... and seems to be a universal constant in both religion and science. Respected for respect, and disdain for disdain. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:40:37 AM | Human spirituality is a very real matter of fact, that cropped up all on it's own in many different places all at once, and which would continue to manifest itself in whatever cultural forms were convenient even if all knowledge of religion was wiped clean.
Yup, that of course doesn't make it true.
In the end, reciprocation is always the best policy... and seems to be a universal constant in both religion and science. Respected for respect, and disdain for disdain.
Total bullshit. Evolution doesn't "disdain" christianity. Stem cell research doesn't "disdain" christianity. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:51:42 AM | no respect needed or given here, even to old people who believe in that god/heaven bullshit (they are old, and should know better by now lol). 150 years after darwin, for example, no person has any reason to be religious, and with the 1 million dollar prize from james randi foundation still unclaimed (obviously), theres no reason for anyone to believe in the paranormal either. .
Yeah, well you can think it all you want...but if you say it out loud then it essentially makes you just a mean-spirited prick. There are many reasons for people to be religious...they just aren't "reasonable" reasons. No one ever accused people of being necessarily reasonable at all times. Most of the time, the primary function of religion is the social one. I don't think any reasonable preosn would argue that it could be better served in some other way...but like a salad, you won't win any friends to reason by pointing it out to them in such an acerbic and frankly brutish manner.
Even Richard Dawkins has the good sense to remain a "soft atheist" and leave the back door open to saying yes I am positive that there is no good reason to believe in the supernatural...but all the same I leave my mind open for any possibility that there are things in the universe that remain unknown that are yet to be understood by science.
call this a derogatory blanket coverage if you will (i'm ok with that) but people holding on to supernatural belief systems are always found to have at least some of the following characteristics: ignorance, laziness, history of indoctrination, mental disorder/cognative deficiency, stupidity or intellectual dishonesty
I've found the same collection of foibles amongst pretentious university students, of any faith or non-faith background, in a coffee shop, saying "Nietsczhe" loudly to look cool...big deal. It is indeed derogatory blanket coverage and a stupid generalization.
It does you no great harm to not go out of your way to spit on old ladies and tell them they are not going to heaven when they die. That may have been a tongue in cheek example on your part - I hope - but in any case, if someone's delusion is not doing them any real harm, you can present your case and let them decide for themself. You just don't have to be a weiner about it...if anything that does more harm than good to presenting rationality and reason to the religious believer | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 12:08:14 PM |
Yup, that of course doesn't make it true.
It's a truth of our humanity, as a matter of fact.
Total bullshit. Evolution doesn't "disdain" christianity. Stem cell research doesn't "disdain" christianity.
And this is yet another good example of "missing the point" altogether. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 2:21:56 PM |
It's a truth of our humanity, as a matter of fact.
I think you're missing my point. Just because spirituality is generated spontaneously doesn't mean that any of the spiritualism produced is in fact meaningful, it just means it is a biological bi-product.
And this is yet another good example of "missing the point" altogether.
Nah, this is an example of "failing to make a point" a good example of "missing the point" is
It's a truth of our humanity, as a matter of fact.
Funny that huh? | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 2:53:48 PM | I'm sorry... I can't seem to get this tune out of my head while reading this...
i am a clone, i am not alone
every fibre of my flesh
and bone
is identical to ther others'.
everything i say
is in the same tone
as my test-tube brothers' voice.
there is no choice between us
if you had ever seen us
you'd rejoice in your uniqueness
and consider every weakness
something special
of your own
being a clone
i have no flaws to identify
even this doggerel
that pours from my pen
has just been written by
another twenty telepathic men
it says:
o for the wings
of any bird
other than a battery hen.
but that's the spirit of the age
--David Brock | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 6:48:52 PM |
Originally posted by Anunnaki
Actually, the Eucharist is not cannibalism.
Look up the word cannibal first to understand it's meaning. Then, look up the divine nature of Christ and transubstantiation.
The same theology applies to your vampire claim.
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:17:56 PM |
I think you're missing my point. Just because spirituality is generated spontaneously doesn't mean that any of the spiritualism produced is in fact meaningful, it just means it is a biological bi-product.
A bi-product, huh? So it's, like, a dual product?! What exactly is a "dual product". And how are the windows in your glass house, incidently?
The fact that the spiritual impulse has and will continue to assert itself time and again indicates that it is a fact of our fundamental psychological make-up as human beings.
The relative worth of any given by-product of that impulse is another matter altogether.
Nah, this is an example of "failing to make a point" a good example of "missing the point" is...
The subject of the thread is respect for spiritual and religious beliefs. The point I apparently "failed to make" was *reciprocity*. You know, as in treating and @$$hole like an @$$hole. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/13/2007 2:40:08 AM | I'm going to try to look past your snark, and look at the incredibly minimal arguement that you have underneath it.
Faith and religiosity is not part of basic psychology. Many healthy people don't have faith.
Religion as a by-product (OMG I ACCIDENTLY PUT I INSTEAD OF Y!!) of biology is a simple explanation of why it pops up everywhere.
Finally, religion spontaneously being produced isn't an arguement that religion is a good thing, or a true thing. It's simply an observation. You're failing to make a point, and being increasingly hostile because others are point it out.
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/13/2007 3:44:11 AM | | There will hopefully come a day where everyone will know that we are spirits animating a physical body. The spirits have told us through mediums that it really doesn't matter at all what religion you are. What matters is how much you are able to improve yourself during your short stay on earth. We should respect those who we admire as teachers who founded the various religions but remember that their message is universal. We will not qualify for a better place after our earth life if, even with our guiding spirit's intuitive help, during our lifetime we still haven't proven mastery over our beast; if we still haven't learned to replace lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, anger, envy and pride with chastity, abstinence, liberality, diligence, patience, kindness and humility. | |
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tdh46
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Joined: 1/7/2007
Msg: 121 | |
| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/13/2007 8:25:30 AM | "I am going to look past your snark, and look at the incredible minimal Arguement that you have underneath it"
I have no idea about this debate but i find it ironic that Charlesedm is chastising someone about their spelling of the word Atheist, Yet he himself can't spell such a simple word as ARGUMENT. Can we say "pot calling the kettle black" little boys and girls? I knew you could.
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/14/2007 5:27:44 AM | "Aetheist"
"bi-product"
"incidently"
Tee-hee-hee.
That mutually exclusive cultures keep making myths is not proof of truth of the content of the myths.
How's that? | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/15/2007 10:45:30 AM |
I'm curious to know how many here respect others beliefs, even when they differ from your own and how many think that all religious people are brainwashed idiots or all spiritual people are self-deluded egoists. How many people casually apply some blanket derogatory statement to all people in a religious or a spiritual community?
I have yet to find one thing the slightest bit worthy of respect in religion or beliefs. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/16/2007 9:58:11 AM | Such hostility. It seems the standard atheist-nontheist response to hatemonger christians is to become hatemongers, themselves. If a person told you you were going to Hell, and you tell them there's no such thing as Heaven, who's right? If a person goes out of their way to discredit/disprove/belittle someone else's sincerely held beliefs, is that acceptable?
Pfft. I've seen quite enough. Just remember, all you angry atheists thinking that yelling at little old churchladies that there's no heaven is somehow helping your cause, you are NO BETTER than the hellfire-and-brimstone fundies that have dug their dirty hands into the political scene: what proof is there that, if offered the opportunity to do so, you would refuse it? How can you tear into someone's sincerely held views and claim any sort of moral superiority?
There are seven states where one cannot hold any sort of elected office if they don't believe in God. If the roles were reversed, and hostile anti-theists in charge, would those state constitutions then read that one cannot hold any form of elected office if they do believe in God?
You are your own worst enemy.
What positive force has religion done, you ask?
For those who do not seek to press their views upon others, it offers solidarity: it offers comfort. It offers a brief respite from the ever-present fear of death and the unknown. It offers hope. It offers a chance to become more than what a person currently is. Is it for everyone? No. But that is not your decision to make. | |
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| Respect for spiritual and religious beliefs
Posted: 7/16/2007 1:16:57 PM |
Such hostility. It seems the standard atheist-nontheist response to hatemonger christians is to become hatemongers, themselves.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I don't hate religious people. However I strongly dislike religion itself, since no good comes from it.
If a person told you you were going to Hell, and you tell them there's no such thing as Heaven, who's right? If a person goes out of their way to discredit/disprove/belittle someone else's sincerely held beliefs, is that acceptable?
Why shouldn't it be? You seem to think if someone holds a belief, that belief must automatically have default respect simply because it's a belief. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If someone believes rape is okay, that does not deserve respect just because it's a 'belief'. If someone believes murder is okay, that doesn't get respect just because it's a belief. If someone believes in some monsterous and sadistic supreme being, and even actively worships it, I certainly won't respect that and will have extreme reservations about that person's morality and outlook on life.
Pfft. I've seen quite enough. Just remember, all you angry atheists thinking that yelling at little old churchladies that there's no heaven is somehow helping your cause, you are NO BETTER than the hellfire-and-brimstone fundies that have dug their dirty hands into the political scene:
I'll debate religion with anyone interested in discussing the subject, hopefully producing stimulating conversation and making it a enjoyable learning experience.
I'm not the one who goes around handing out pamplets that are the equivalent of terror tactics to scare young children and naive adults into subscribing to a particular belief system. I've personally recieved them and read such pamplets, and they are, for all intents and purposes, terrorist tools. Designed to invoke fear with the only 'solution' being 'believe what we tell you or else'.
what proof is there that, if offered the opportunity to do so, you would refuse it? How can you tear into someone's sincerely held views and claim any sort of moral superiority?
Morality is quite subjective, although generally it seems established humans have evolved a few common moral traits (like responding to someone in distress by trying to help them). For another example, most sane people don't think stoning someone to death because they gathered firewood on Sabbath is a very moral thing to do. That's why I laugh when people try and tell me they get their morals from the bible or other religious texts...they don't, they merely pick what they personally approve of, dismiss the rest and then claim they got their morality from it.
While I could easily argue my morality as superior to religious based morality examples I'm aware of, I usually don't. What I do tend to argue is intellectual superiority when faced with the ignorant ranting of religious teachings.
There are seven states where one cannot hold any sort of elected office if they don't believe in God. If the roles were reversed, and hostile anti-theists in charge, would those state constitutions then read that one cannot hold any form of elected office if they do believe in God?
Actually, I'd approve of a system where elected officials cannot hold office if they have any religious beliefs. That would ensure no religious beliefs dictating the actions of our leaders, while ensuring the seperation of religion and government. Of course, I'd even settle for individuals just honest and commited enough to shelf their religious beliefs when making decisions for many people not subscribing to them. But that's as likely as willing the lottery.
You are your own worst enemy.
What positive force has religion done, you ask?
I already know...none. Religion is not required for any person to do good deeds. Religion is a tool which can be used to enact good deeds, but it's not necessary.
On the other hand, religion actively encourages unhealthy and dangerous behavior.
For those who do not seek to press their views upon others, it offers solidarity: it offers comfort. It offers a brief respite from the ever-present fear of death and the unknown. It offers hope. It offers a chance to become more than what a person currently is. Is it for everyone? No. But that is not your decision to make.
I'm not interested in deciding what others believe. But I'm perfectly entitled to point out how stupid and uneducated those beliefs are, and point out how it reflects extremely poorly on those who stubbornly cling to them. | |
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