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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/10/2005 11:04:14 AM | This is a tough one and generalizations are never true. Before some jackass starts yammering about John Wayne again or some lesbian starts preaching about men as sperm donors I'd like to say something.
I was raised by my mom. She taught me to be very strong and to set goals and yadda yadda yadda. I first really met my real dad (not the three step dads that we went through) when I was 16 and I didn't get to really know him until I was 18. Thats when I finished highschool and went and worked and lived with him for two years.
The point is that although I grew up with lots of friends and had girlfriends and played sports and did well in school and always had a job, I was always fairly intensely insecure about my masculinity. No one saw this insecurity on the outside mind you, I can be one bottled-up fu**er. I don't think my mother understood anything about masculinity (could be why she had so much trouble with men) and it follows that she didn't (and probably couldn't) teach me how to either accept it, deal with it or express it. I never took any of my step dads as much of a role model and never had a strong example for how to fulfill the male side of the equation. I ended up with lots of female friends (which is great) but had a hard time dealing with women intimately without getting neurotic about it. I did have some really good buddies as well, a bunch of guys Im still friends with since we were about 8 years old. Lots of times though, when i was dealing with other guys (particularly when I didn't know them that well), I felt like there were established "rules-of-engagement" that no-one had ever told me about.
It took getting to know my father along with a lot of careful thinking and effort and a few disastrous relationships before I found the confidence to express and carry myself as a man. Don't get me wrong, I think my mom did a great job and she taught me lots of things about being thoughtful and sensitive and hardworking but I think a male influence is very important. Men and women may be equal but they are deffinitely different. Its basic biology, dont fight it, its the differences that we are attracted to. I think it would be as hard for a woman to teach a boy about being masculine as it would be for a man to teach a girl about being feminine. Kudos to the people who have no choice and do their best, however.
As far as a woman teaching an immatute guy how to be a man. The notion is insane. You shouldn't go anywhere near a relatioinship with the premise of trying to change someone. Are you nuts.
There it is. Open for backlash...
-bushrat100 | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/10/2005 9:18:30 PM | my son is more of a man then most I have met...including his father....I didnt attempt to change him....he grew up making his own choices...and own mistakes.....and I was there to support him, listen to him and allow him to make his mistakes...and if you were to meet him....you would think twice about calling his mom nuts for the way she raised him...I dont think you should be lumping all singles mothers in one catagory becasue you have some personal issues to deal with....its an unfair judgement call on your part that we arent capable of raising men.
oh and PS..this mom is the one who taught him how to throw a good punch...to wrestle....who to stand up for....when to stand your ground....and when to let things go...and also to a gentle caring and loving father. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 5:49:07 AM | No way woman can teach a son to be a man.Its natural that a man is indeed a man.ITS ONLY HOW U FEED AND BRING UP THE KID THAT COULD MATTER TO HIS MAN HOOD.I grew up in a staunch christian background and I started dating women when am at Uni.So I strongly disagree that ma mum did anything to ma manhood.  | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 6:19:30 AM | | I have a feeling that is thread could go on for a long time....some men will say "no women cant"...and strong single mothers will say "yes we can" and know we are right....but then again....it wont be the first time we had to deal with men who have little respect for woman I suspect...but I, personally think Im done its like beating the proverbial dead horse. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 9:25:15 AM | aww come on. Its not disrespect. You don't have to get confrontational about it. If anything its a difference in definitions.
How about this:
Can a man teach a girl how to be a woman?
I can, have, and will teach my daughter many things. I seriously doubt, though, that I have much to teach her much about coming into her womanhood. What do you think?
-bushrat100 | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 1:53:31 PM | | Im not being confrontational....but yeah you are being disrespectful.....and as far as a girl starting her "cycle"...I doubt any man can compare anything he goes through to that....but if you read up on it and try to understand.....talked to a nurse about it...asked a sister or grandmother to speak with her....reassured her that she can talk to you..Im sure youll make it through well enough. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 2:52:21 PM | I agree with you AMI about the dead horse.
I will have to say though about what I said about changing my ex. I don't guess I would have anything to change. He just went a different route in life one I could not join in on. I think He really loves his kids just could fight temptations or pre pressure on things.
But yes I think my son is going to be just fine being raised by is mother! | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 2:56:16 PM | I read thru most of this thread so far, and, in an effort to be fair, I would have to say that some of the posts are as offensive to me, as me saying that women can't teach a boy how to be a man.
I don't care how "well" you think you've done in teaching your son to be a good person. There is no way to teach a boy how to be a man, than to exhibit those qualities yourself, and to actually SHOW them what it means.
Women in general have a tendancy to miss alot of the by-play that goes on between men. The times when different measures are being taken, and pecking orders are being determined. For men, it's an automatic type of a thing that's part of who we are.
Alot of why men do the things that we do, we don't have an answer for. With some digging, I've learned that there is a good reason for alot of those things, including rough housing, and tossing your kids up into the air, and teaching them how to face and deal with the things that scare them.
Sure, mom's can do those things, but with mom's it's different. Mom's worry more about the kid getting hurt, rather than whether or not the lesson to be learned is worth it.
You know, some of the best lessons my dad ever taught me were after he had died and I came to the point of asking myself what he would do.
Knute | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 3:47:20 PM | I agree with this completely, AMI. "talk to a nurse, a sister, a grandmother". Thats exactly what I was saying. Your saying consult a woman about teaching her about femininity.
You may have mis-understood me on one point, however. I have many staunch feminist friends and even they would agree that there are many differences between men and women besides the fact that women menstruate. Menstruation is a fairly tangible and specific thing that I understand fairly well and don't think I would have any problem teaching my daughter about. She does have her mom still, too (side note). But besides that, women and men have completely different physical and chemical makeups and interact with 1) eachother, 2) the opposite sex, and 3) their environment in completely different ways (generally speaking, of course). Some of this is biological and some of this is learned during childhood. While Im not a stickler conservative who is bent on maintaining some arbitrary idea of "normalcy", the learned portions of a guys masculinity are key to understanding his role and ability for healthy interaction within a society and culture that has been developing for thousands of years. This brings me back to the "not being given the rule-book" analogy that I used before. To a large extent, most of the conflicts that I personally had growing up where a direct result of the strongest role-model in my life being very strongly feminine. This meant that I had no external reference with which to gauge and understand the masculine aspects of my emotions and personality, as these developed over puberty. These characteristics where largely absent from any of the most prominant examples available to me.
Your also right, to some extent, in saying that my views are probably more applicable to myself than anybody else. This is usually the case when anybody makes grandiose statements about "how-people-are". Regardless, theres no need to talk about me "having issues". Of course I do. We all do. Thats just spiteful. My point-of-view and my experiences are entirely valid and are likely representative for a larger portion of the population than you understand. Part of me coming to grips with my masculinity has been having the balls to be honest and fair, with myseldf and others (pardon the pun).
I applaud you for being such a strong and proud mother. You should be. Your son sounds like a real good guy. Your lucky you had a doctor, brother or grandfather that you could refer too once in a while (now Im just screwing with you...)
Thank you, this has been very interesting, I think I'll agree to let the horse die now.
-bushrat100 | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 4:15:12 PM | | I would disagree, it takes both a woman and a man, how could he be complete without the influence of both parents, each sex looks at things differntly, having both parents will make a much more well rounded man. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 5:46:33 PM | Bushrat .....
While I've supported your expression/views in your recent posts, I must tell you that 1 particular part of this most recent post ... well... blows. Ironically enought, that particular part has nothing to do with the origional topic at hand :O lol (I'll get to it much later in my post, although it too refers to the following assertion).
While it too is a generalization, it's a countable one if you go through all the posts on here and 'tally' the score:
Most men can admit thier shortcommings and most women struggle with this.
Go ahead and read though all 4 pages of posts as I have and the numbers will tell you plain a simple: men can admit a shortcumming when dealing with demonstrating feminenity but most woman cannot admit to this shortcomming with masculinity.
(and just for the record... I never preach to be a propper/good speller to please forgive any mis-speliings here)
As most ppl have mentioned, it's not about teaching a boy to be a man or a girl a woman, but rather a matter of instilling good decision making skills, fostering intellectual/physical growth, and providing emotional comfort/security.
It seems that most respondents to this topic (men and women) have chosen to group this topic under the 'fostering growth' category. While not at all uncorrect, this topic actually filts into more than just than 1, and it's in the last one where you'll find it has the most profound impact on your child (and I believe your origional post speaks to this):
Given a "traditional" household (1 woman/man, and 2 childs: 1boy/1girl) and see for yourself: it has nothing to do with "SKILL" and has nothing to do with either your oppinion of your 'X' or thier level of envolvement in your child(s) live(s) (or what your oppinion is about that even!)..... Little boys will intuitively compare themselves with Dad when growing, and little girls with MOM. Why ??? I didn't design 'em, but if I read all the research/documentation on this topic (*outside this forum of course) it's quite evident:
Women.... ALL OF YOU --> In order to provide the same level of emotional comfort and security, you will quite bluntly have to grow a penius.
Men .... ALL OF YOU --> In order to provide the same level of emotional comfort and security, you will have to loose yours and learn to menstruate.
One of the first things lil boys & girls do is learn the difference between lil girls and lil boys. It's part of self exploration which occurs first. It doesn't matter how much you love your child, or whether or not they grow up to like boys or girls themselves... they learn gender difference very early, and then, like it or not, we are all put in a mental basket labeled "SAME" or "NOT SAME" (yes ... little girls do this too!).
Now, fortunately/unfortunately --> depends on your perspective, men and women are all different. I've met women that act so masculine, and men that cry when you "upset" them. It's not just a matter of how you personally exhibit these traits, but which mental bucket your child has placed you in that determines you level of confidence to the child. Because of all this, I sincerely believe that some women could raise (in my oppinion of course) "BETTER" men then men can, and I also belive the same holds true for men and thier daughters.
Now... to get back to the part of your post I disagree with and my origional assertaion: You have openly depicted your oppinions (and of course they are YOURS, who else can you really speak for) in a way where it's evident that you take steps not to offend. If you take a read though AMI's responces, it's evident that she takes your oppionions personally, that she rejects them, and that she is compelled to argue her perspective. These are ALL signs of the natural, by the way, responce to having your beliefs challenged. This 'natural' responce however is one that can be grown out of as being open-minded reguralily entails challenging your own belief systems.
Its with open-mindedness and our abilities to challenge our beliefs that we are capable of growth. If you want to be a good parent to you son/daughter, you as a parent should try to incorporate this into all of your doings.
From this perspective, I believe being a "strong" "proud" mother is actually one of the biggest problems with singal mothers (and fathers) today. It will be PRIDE that prevents the mother from realizing the fathers importance! (and vice-versa of course).
While being PROUD and STRONG can be great admirable qualities when used properly, the proper word for using it as most women have demonstrated in thier posts is with the word STUBBORN. This should not be applauded in any fashion. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 6:11:58 PM | .
OK..now my parents are divorced...ive lived with my mother...who infact was less then a parent them my my father..my father was the one who told me about periods, sex,birth control, condoms,boys not my mother...its a 2 way street... a child can be raised by either parent properly if there is love and guidance....lets be fair here now...men are just as capable of raising children now adays anyways...many of my male friends who are divorced infact have custody of their children...So lets all play nice...its a good topic...a real good one...but its all on love and respect for your children that makes them grow into respectful ppl.
thanks have a good day! | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 7:17:25 PM | Yes I am proud...and yes I am a strong independant woman....but I never denied the fact that a fathers influence is important...you made an assumption with which to base your "statement" on.....and you were wrong.....but when the father up and leaves you to raise his son alone....then you must make the best out of the situation...
I spent 17 years not discrediting or slandering his father in any form...which was no easy task.....so when he asked me why he didnt have a dad.....I told him your father wasnt old enough to be a daddy yet...and when he lived at home, his daddy was mean to him...so he had to leave.....all my son asked me was..."do you mean my dad didnt want me?"....I told him I didnt know and couldnt answer that question...but he had a mommy who wanted him and loved him very much.....and to this day......when I remember him saying that....it rips my heart to peices.....BUT yet I never said a bad word about his father....
When my son was old enough..and felt he was ready....he decided to make the attempt to know his father...not me.....however I was there to support him.....and after a few meetings.....my son decided his father wasnt worth getting angry over....I however wanted to rip his face off and beat him to a pulp for hurting my son...perhaps thats was a bit "masculine" on my part...
my son grew up with male role models, who I judged as decent men.....with the qualities and traits I found would influence my son the best...
So when you say stubborn...I guess 17 years of not lashing out at his dad is stubborn...and
I guess staying home rather then partying, like most people of my age at the time and raising a MAN who will be there for his family is stubborn....then I guess Im guilty as charged....and as for being appluaded for the job I did....damn straight I deserve it....
just a post script here.....
"While being PROUD and STRONG can be great admirable qualities when used properly, the proper word for using it as most women have demonstrated in thier posts is with the word STUBBORN. This should not be applauded in any fashion."
I dont see any reference toward males there...only to females...you sir are extremely condesending in your remarks...however slight or elequently stated. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 10:48:20 PM | Plane and simple, just as my previous post says, this is what is demonstrated in the posts. Go back and read them and you will see that is it primarily the females with this type of reaction to the post and most men admit thier limitations.
It's not my intent to be condensending, I am sorry if you interperet it this way. If you find it insulting, you must be in agreement that this behaviour is less than acceptable. I just state what the posts illistrate.
Again, I too am not making this a personal statement. From what you've written about your situation, sounds like you picked a real loser as a father. I've made simular mistakes about my choices, but that too has nothing to do with my remarks about the posts already made in this thread. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/11/2005 10:59:36 PM | | i don't think it's so much about telling a son or daughter about things specific to their genders. i think having 2 parents around allows children to see how adults of both sexes interact and what is acceptable behaviour. they pattern their behaviour and expectations of behaviour from the opposite sex that way. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/12/2005 7:23:09 AM | I beg to differ...you are completely condesending to woman.....and yes I find it insulting because you seem to think what is spewing forth on the page from you is correct in its generalization when regarding the upbringing of male children by single mothers.... I expect there are more single mothers out there that disagree also and who know they do a good job raising there children...I however am not content to sit back and allow some Alpha Male wannabe to tell me Im not an acceptable parent to my son...at least for the moment.
No, I do not agree with what you are trying to tell me...and as far as "just stating what the posts illistrate"...I dont beleive so...your are regurgitating it tainted with your own bitterness and disrespect towards women.
As for my situation...and your remark about "picking a loser"...we were both 15 years old at the time he left...and no doubt you will have something equally as condesending to remark regarding that...but nevertheless....I allowed him to go....I suppose I couldve cried and carried on and made him stay....but why?...so he could learn to resent his son?...I wouldnt put my son through having to live with anyone that treated him with anything less then love....again..a choice I made to better his life...and to further on the "loser" comment....he couldnt have been that much of a loser because his son turned out fine and yes he has his fathers qualities....but perhaps that further demonstrates that his mom made the right choices and did a good job raising him to be a man.
And now...Im letting the horse die...because it seems to me debating you in the thread is serving no point other then to remind me of the "a womans place is in the kitchen" standards that still exist in todays society....
NOW...Ill sit back. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/12/2005 8:29:15 AM | Many good posts here. A woman can do some things for him, but ultimately he will seek, and require, a man to teach him. Picking a good role model is crucial. If he imprints on the wrong role model (older skate punks, gang members, dope heads on the block) then 15yrs of his life will be lost. Get him someplace where quality men are by any means necessary.
Many sheriff's dept's have summer camps. Junior deputies, some churches (not all), etc. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/12/2005 4:41:19 PM | AMI, All I can say is your reply is proof of my statement.
Your right I speak in generalizations ... so stop taking it personally... you only strengthen my statement. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/12/2005 7:50:56 PM | oh wek one...you have a very interesting way of twisting things to suit your arguement.....Im sure you believe yourself to be correct and deserve a pat on the back for disrespecting woman and single mothers in particular....so by all means...pat yourself on the back..because lets face it..you did a darn good job at it......bravo...
just a bit of a suggestion though..the next time you decide to sit in judgement on a whole entire sector of society for how they live and raise there children....you might want to be more vague in your generaliation....because yes some will take it personally.....as I did and still do....in particular, the use of the word "loser" when referring to my sons father....I believe that makes it very personal.....just as sure as if I used the term "stubborn hypocritical jackass" during my posts....you might have taken that personally....even if I wasnt referring to you....you should make note of that...just for any future degradation you will more then likely care out......Im done posting to you. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/12/2005 8:12:23 PM | | My two cents, not that anyone asked. I read a great book once called "The Wonder of Boys". I highly reccommend it. It stated that boys, no matter the situation at home, are like wolves, and they need different 'packs', or families, to make them well rounded individuals. They gave several examples of where boys can find these different pack-type situations. Obviously, the home, school, sports and other activities (such as scouting), and church. The fact that boys need to belong to something was stressed. In other words, they gave a sense that it takes a village. In my own personal experience, my sons' father has taught them all they need to know about being men in the examples he has shown them on how NOT to be one. He is in sorry shape, and getting worse as the years go by. The reason I split from him was so my children would not grow up in a home full of dysfunction. I didn't want them to believe that the way he treated me was the way women should be treated. I wanted them to respect women (and me) and if they grew up with him in the home, they woud have seen him treat me like crap daily, and how could they respect me or any other women living with that? They are still too young to understand his behavior right now, and thankfully he is not a big influence in thier lives. I want them to be good husbands. I want them to be good fathers. I want them to be good citizens and good bosses/employees/buddies. Sure there may be some things I'll never be able to show them by way of demonstration, but a lot of that stuff can be learned through experience with thier friends. I think the things I'm teaching them are far more important than showing them how to hammer some nails or skin an animal. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/12/2005 8:16:25 PM | This is not a direct response to Nepean guy, but I've never posted here before and I'm not sure how to add on. Pretty computer illiterate he he.
In any case, If God had mean't for Just women to raise kids...or just men to raise kids..he would have made us asexual. There are things a mother can teach a child, boy or girl, that a father cannot. And things a father can teach a child a mother cannot. On both sides of the coin there are parents who don't live up to certain expectations of what there role should be or what their spouses feel they should be. Every parent makes mistakes. Sometimes its worse than we would like but we need to look at the log in our own eye before we judge the splinter in anothers. It comes down to loving the child, letting the child know that he is loved. And quit trying to do what the other parent should be doing. Men and Women are equal on this earth...(uh oh better be careful with this one)....lol...BUt we do have different purposes. Men don't give birth for a reason. I don't believe we are emotionally capable of handling it. It was a gift designed for a woman..a mother because, well women in general I believe are more emotionally stable then men when it comes to that. Men have gifts and traits that women don't. and to save myself from lynching I will leave it at that. lol
As one person in this forum said...A mother can't teach her son certain things like a man can't teach his daughter. Only a man knows what its like to be a man and only a woman knows what its like to be a woman. Broken familes are everywhere but we need not forget that are kids need both. period. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/12/2005 8:20:32 PM | | Well in most cases I would say no, however there are some women out there that I have seen do a better job at teaching a boy to be a man. One of those women was my mother I did not grow up with a father and even though I missed out on the special father son things that most boys experience with their father my mother taught me well. You see it all comes down to values gender has nothing to do with it... and I'm not getting into morality crap cause well I can honestly say I'm far from perfect. It is the base values that are what determine how a boy grows to be a man. RESPECT is the number one if the boy is taught that then he is well on his way to be a man no matter whether he was taught by a man or a woman. | |
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| CAN A woman TEACH A boy how to be a MAN!
Posted: 7/12/2005 8:32:07 PM | to saje043
thats what I was trying to point out.
my sons werent denied male role models.....I just chose who they would be....so they would benefit from what they would experience...but as the sole care giver.....I was reponsible for what they learned.
thank you for speaking out. | |
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