I've read both Dave and No More -- I wouldn't trash either. This is the latest help for men that teaches you that all your mother told you about being a sweet boy to your girlfriend is not good advice. Just really how to be a man.

If you think Dave is all one-liners, then I know you haven't read it and are commenting out of your ... its much more than that. I wouldn't say do everything he says, but take from it what helps you-- and that's how to not be intimidated by women and stand your ground. And really be yourself--not what your mama wanted you to do.

DeAngelo is a hack who offers band-aids to men who need heart surgery! He teaches them one-liners that do NOT fix the root cause of the problem: DEEP INSECURITIES! DeAngelo's one-liners might be good for "tricking" a woman into sleeping with you, but if she has any brains whatsoever, she won't fall for it. And even if she does, she won't stay.

The TRUE way for a DOOR MAT nice guy to fix himself is to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (Glover). This book teaches them how to overcome their insecurities, how it happened and how to build confidence and self-esteem. NOT how to be a jerk! It makes them confident, well-balanced men. And it's a confident, well-balanced man that will find a meaningful, lasting relationship.

A confident, intelligent woman would laugh in the face of any guy who tried Dave's schtick on them.

Okay, yes and no to the first part. The second part..... just no.

It depends on which of David D.'s stuff you're using. If you're just using his newsletters and Double Your Dating e-book, then yes, that's a band-aid fix that really won't do much to fix the real problem underneath. I agree. But the guy also has extensive (and expensive) DVD courses purely on "inner game" (which is basically pickup lingo for confidence). Those are geared toward addressing the root cause. And he even says himself that "game" is 90% mental and 10% physical so it's important to get your head straight.

But if your confidence is where it should be, the other stuff works fine. It doesn't make women stupid for "falling for it." It makes them fun, free, and not cynical or skeptical about having a good time.

I've never heard of this book, so I can't really comment on it. I'll have to look it up now. But if it's anything like the Book of Pook, which it sounds like, I could see it being a worthy investment.

She's supposed to laugh. It's cðcky and funny.

Anyway, as someone who has made it work personally, I always have to ask when people post things like this..... have you actually tried it?

If they start distancing themselves from you, end it post haste.

I can appreciate why quite a few people in this thread are assuming from my opening post that i would come across as a pushover or someone who is spineless...That isn't the case.

I've always been perfectly aware of what is going on around me, and if anything ever comes up that i know i shouldn't have to take i make a point of it and put a stop to it.

In both of the cases highlighted i didn't go out of my way to do everything or give everything for the people involved. At any time i was just being me.

I don't assume for one second that my being a nice person caused the end of anything, i merely ask why people claim to seek that as a defining quality in a person, then encounter it and completely take it for granted.

And gwsmith: It wasn't a charity case, that stuff only came to light after we'd been together a while. I suspect without being used and abused she felt a bit lost like there wasn't anything to challenge her. I personally don't feel a relationship should be about having to be challenged, but there we go.....

See, this is where you and I disagree. DeAngelo, even on his CDs doesn't really address the root cause of the confidence issues. 99% of his stuff is band-aids. There is no structure to fix the root cause of the problem. Just simply telling a guy "Go be**** and funny" is not going to fix the deep inner issues that only a significant amount of time in therapy can fix.

But see, if your confidence is at a health level, you won't need to use DeAngelo's band-aids.

To a degree, yes. But I've always felt like an R-Tard. Maybe that's me and maybe some dimwitted woman is going to fall for it. I just can't see anyone with a lick of self-respect buying it. **** and funny (without a solid foundation of confidence backing up) to me at least -- is a glass house in the way of a avalanche.

Beautiful, intelligent and confident women can see through that crap :)

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely better places I would recommend somebody go to get their confidence fixed. The aforementioned Book of Pook was the most prominent in a series of sources that helped me. But I just don't think David D. is as bad as some people make him out to be.

Not entirely true. You can be confident and still not be socially adept.

No offense, but maybe that's why it didn't work for you. Because you felt awkward doing it and expected it not to work. Like you said yourself, you have to have confidence. If you don't fully believe in what you're doing, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone else to believe you.

It has to seem genuine. It has to seem like a natural part of your personality. Besides, as with most of the pickup community, all that canned material is really only supposed to be there to get you used to the interaction. Eventually, you're supposed to develop a sense of spontaneity and come up with your own stuff on the fly. That's when it becomes much more effective and gets a lot more fun to do.

But I agree that putting technique before confidence is putting the cart before the horse.

If that's what you want to believe, I'm not going to try to change your mind. I only know what my personal experiences have brought me.

However, our basic personality traits and temperments will predominant regardless of our attempts to become "bad boys". So if you are a so-called nice guy, you will probably continue to be so regardless of all attempts to transmogrify yourselves into Evil Knievels.

Granted, I may make him out to be more of a bad guy than he really is, but let's be honest here. DeAngelo's goal is to make money. I'm not sure how much he's making on the whole "DYD" series, but I'm sure his wallet isn't hurting his ability to attract women either. ;)

See the thing is, I've always relied on my personality, just as I am. Sometimes I'm funny, sometimes I'm not. But if I have to "act" like something I am not, then it's not going to work for me. I am very**** from time to time. I'm funny from time to time. Rarely do I mix both and rarely is my aim ever to "score". At my age, I'm not looking for short term gratification. I'm looking for Ms. Right (not Ms. Right Now). That, in and of itself, is probably the predominate reason why David's stuff strikes me as childish and immature. It doesn't fit me. May work for some guys though -- in fact, I am sure it does.

My question is "For how long?"

I guess for me the true test is this: "How many people have used DeAngelo's stuff and have had long term relationships from it?" My guess is few. Probably lots of meaningless sex and I suppose for some men, that's all they want.