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Posted: 5/2/2009 8:36:32 AM |
I'm on the fence about the whole hate crimes thing. On one hand, it does seem that people should understand that commiting a crime for any kind of discriminatory purpose is intolerable
Ah, so let's fight intolerance with more intolerance...
I've always wondered why the expression 'fight fire with fire' is so popular when such an action is totally ineffective.
While this politician's motivation in no doubt rooted in his personal belief that homosexuality is wrong, I do have to agree that so-called 'hate crime' laws should be fought and challenged wherever they occur.
'Hate crimes' were essentially invented by politicians eager to manipulate the masses. Since their inception they have overwhelmingly, almost to absolute exclusion, targeted white heterosexual males. If you enjoy exercises in futility, try to find a single case where a minority or homosexual was successful charged and found guilty of a 'hate crime'. According to our judicial system, only white heterosexual males are capable of 'hate crimes'.
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?
-Eleanor Roosevelt | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 8:53:30 AM |
I've always wondered why the expression 'fight fire with fire' is so popular when such an action is totally ineffective.
Then you totally misunderstand what the term means.
By using a controlled burn, it is possible to stop an out-of-control fire. You take away the fuel, and the fire dies.
What would a homosexual have to do in order for the action to be labeled a hate crime?
This bill is all about preventing more crimes against a specific community. | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 9:06:36 AM |
What would a homosexual have to do in order for the action to be labeled a hate crime?
Tossing a Starbuck's double espresso in the face of a cashier while screaming "Breeder!" should qualify. 
This bill is all about preventing more crimes against a specific community.
How do you prevent crimes that have already taken place?
No. 'Hate crimes' are more about making people feel better about themselves than dealing with the intolerance that caused the crime in the first place. | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 9:22:27 AM | How do you prevent crimes that have already taken place?
You don't. You sit back and watch mental midgets who hold a public office make a mockery of them, apparently.
No. 'Hate crimes' are more about making people feel better about themselves than dealing with the intolerance that caused the crime in the first place.
Yeah, I can see it now. All of those crazy crime victims getting insane amounts of self-esteem simply because they now have the same legal recourse that nearly every other human being in this nation has (to protect their right to a safe/peaceable existence in the eyes of the Courts.) Yep, they'll go nutz with glee I tell ya.
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Posted: 5/2/2009 10:05:56 AM | 1) The people who support 'hate crimes' are the ones that feel better about themselves, not the victims.
2) It was illegal to assualt homosexuals and minorities before 'hate crime' laws. The only thing that's changed is that white heterosexual males are punished more harshly now than their counterparts for the same crimes.
In my humble opinion justice needs to be applied equally or not at all. | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 10:09:38 AM |
How do you prevent crimes that have already taken place?
What I said was, 'prevent MORE crimes...'
The only thing that's changed is that white heterosexual males are punished more harshly now than their counterparts for the same crimes.
Where is your proof that this is happening? | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 10:31:29 AM | The only thing that's changed is that white heterosexual males are punished more harshly now than their counterparts for the same crimes.
Please do post the statistics on this, I'm very interested to know what/when/why studies of this nature were conducted (and validated and published.)
~OT~ The only laws I can find currently involving homosexual assault issues (in all 50 states) pertain to sodomy. There have been State Supreme Court rulings providing for these types of crimes, however, they are laws that pertained to the general public versus one select group, only amended to include homosexuals due to the perceived notion that ALL gay men practice sodomy, thereby meaning they are actively participating in a commission of a crime should they participate in consensual anal sex and not a victim of a crime if they are, indeed, raped or assaulted by means of sodomy. I can't find ONE statute which provides verbiage select to homosexuals/assault. If there is one, I'd love to read it. JMO | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 10:43:44 AM |
Don't worry, just because this passed does not mean they are going to arrest Miss California or your preacher
Umm...I don't have a preacher, but I will still voice my concern even if I never get to be Miss USA. I am a fairly broad-minded, tolerant person and I don't want any innocent person or group of people to to be victimized.
What would a homosexual have to do in order for the action to be labeled a hate crime?
I'm sorry, I can't find the video clip, but while gays were demonstrating in California, there was an elderly, white woman carrying a sign that indicated she was a Christian and opposed to gay marriage. A young male who was demonstrating with the gays, bashed the old lady over the head with the sign he was carrying. A camera man caught it, and it was on all the tv stations. Also, during the same time frame, gay men were going into church services, stripping and yelling obscenities at the congregation. That was also caught on tape. | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 11:19:29 AM |
What I said was, 'prevent MORE crimes...'
Ah, so you believe harsh punishments deter further crimes.
Odd, I didn't peg you for a death penalty supporter...
Where is your proof that this is happening?
Do you honestly believe that blacks are charged and found guilty of 'hate crimes' as often as whites?
It's really simple to grasp folks if you keep an open mind...
When a black person is charged with a 'hate crime' he/she can turn to everyone from the NAACP to the Rev Al Sharpton for help fighting it. When a white person is charged with a 'hate crime' he/she can only turn to groups labeled racist by a national mob hell bent on being PC.
I'm not going to do your homework for you though. I've spent hours reading over statistics from the Bureau of Justice and so can you. But according to the FBI Hate Crime Statistics 58.6% of all offenders were white while only 20.6% were black. When you take into account that a black offender is more likely to victimize a white person than vice versa it's easy to see that guidelines for what is and what isn't a 'hate crime' aren't being fairly applied. | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 12:35:18 PM | It's really simple to grasp folks if you keep an open mind...
I think “having an open mind" is selective. Such as the gal who posted here that she is a Republican conservative, yet finds this egregious. Open minds are just as selective as those who are closed minded, depending on who you ask.
When a black person is charged with a 'hate crime' he/she can turn to everyone from the NAACP to the Rev Al Sharpton for help fighting it. When a white person is charged with a 'hate crime' he/she can only turn to groups labeled racist by a national mob hell bent on being PC.
I’m an NAACP supporter, but wouldn’t rely on Sharpton to defend/intervene on behalf my dog should (s)he be considered “at large.”
I'm not going to do your homework for you though. I've spent hours reading over statistics from the Bureau of Justice and so can you. But according to the FBI Hate Crime Statistics 58.6% of all offenders were white while only 20.6% were black. When you take into account that a black offender is more likely to victimize a white person than vice versa it's easy to see that guidelines for what is and what isn't a 'hate crime' aren't being fairly applied.
Well, let me help you out since you did mention that I could do my own homework. Please note ~ I’m using the bodies that you suggested (Bureau of Justice & FBI).
The prevalence of imprisonment in 2001 was higher for
-- black males (16.6%) and Hispanic males (7.7%) than for white males (2.6%)
-- black females (1.7%) and Hispanic females (0.7%) than white females (0.3%)
Based on current rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males.
# Women were 6.6% of the State prison inmates in 2001, up from 6% in 1995.
# Sixty-four percent of prison inmates belonged to racial or ethnic minorities in 2001.
# An estimated 57% of inmates were under age 35 in 2001.
# About 4% of State prison inmates were not U.S. citizens at yearend 2001.
# About 6% of State prison inmates were held in private facilities at yearend 2001.
# Altogether, an estimated 57% of inmates had a high school diploma or its equivalent.
# Among the State prison inmates in 2000:
-- nearly half were sentenced for a violent crime (49%)
-- a fifth were sentenced for a property crime (20%)
-- about a fifth were sentenced for a drug crime (21%)
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm
2001 seems to be the most recent statstics published on this particular site.
Now let’s look at the FBI (UCR) stats:
Hate Crimes
# During 2007, 13,241 law enforcement agencies participated in the UCR Program’s hate crime data collection. Agencies provided 1 to 12 months of data about bias-motivated crime, and of those agencies, 2,025 (15.3 percent) reported 7,624 incidents.
# The remaining 84.7 percent of the participating agencies reported that no hate crimes occurred in their jurisdictions.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/jurisdiction.htm
Total cases: 9,006
White offenders: 3,802
Black: 1,045
American Indian/Alaskan Native: 75
Asian/Pacific Islander: 41
Multiple Races: 194
Unknown Race: 600
Unknown Offender: 3,249
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_03.htm
That does not equate to what you post above. Nor does it even equate to their own data (7,624 is NOT 9,006) Reliable data? Questionable at best.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/index.html
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Posted: 5/2/2009 12:37:26 PM |
Odd, I didn't peg you for a death penalty supporter...
...because you know nothing about me, whatsoever.
What I believe is that we should sentence one guilty person at a time.
How many groups like the KKK does the Black community have? It's easy to understand, when one's mind in open, that White Supremacy groups target LGBT, Jews, and Blacks. Given that members of such hate-groups are White, it stands to reason that the FBI stats are correct.
Groups identified as White Supremist:
14 Word Press
Afrikaner Resistance Movement (South Africa)
American Front
American Nazi Party
American Renaissance
Aryan Nations
Christian Defense League
Christian Separatist Church Society
Holocaust Revisionist
Jew Watch
Kingdom Identity Ministries
National Alliance
National Association for the Advancement of White People
Nazi Low Riders
National Socialist Movement
Sheriff's Posse Comitatus
Stormfront (White Pride)
The Jubilee Newspaper
Utopian Anarchist Party
Wake Up Or Die
WAR (White Aryan Resistance)
White Power Central
White Pride Net (White Power links)
White Pride Women
Blitzcast (White Power Music / Video Site)
Women for Aryan Unity
World Church of The Creator (WCOTC)
Black Supremist Groups:
Nation of Islam
New Black Panthers
Black Hebrew Israelites
So, again, given the numbers of groups, the statistics make sense. | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 1:40:29 PM |
...because you know nothing about me, whatsoever.
Such is my great loss 
How many groups like the KKK does the Black community have?
Granted, I'm a little slow compared to my more highly evolved left-thinking counterparts...but what does this have to do with hate crimes?
If you guys want to bury your heads in the sand and tell yourselves that it is perfectly ok to give extra years of prison time to people based on the color of their victims and that this is somehow a good thing for race relations...well you just go right ahead. Don't let me or common sense stand in your way. | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 2:34:50 PM |
If you guys want to bury your heads in the sand and tell yourselves that it is perfectly ok to give extra years of prison time to people based on the color of their victims and that this is somehow a good thing for race relations...well you just go right ahead. Don't let me or common sense stand in your way.
I'll bet you don't even see the irony... | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 2:50:07 PM | I think the FBI is missing at least one Black Supremest group in the NAACP, but that's just my opinion.
Again, while I see the point of trying to curve crime and especially crime against certain groups of people, I still have concerns of thought policing and knowing exactly what is in a persons mind. | |
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Posted: 5/2/2009 4:31:26 PM | The NAACP was first organized to stop the lynchings of Black people.
The focus of its mission is: "to ensure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of rights of all persons and to eliminate racial hatred and racial discrimination"
In my opinion, the NAACP isn't a supremist group. There have been White people involved with it since its inception in 1909, and there are members from all communities today.
Because the NAACP has used education and the legal system to enact change, and because their goal is fair and equal treatment for all people, I can't agree that they are a Black Supremist group. | |
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Posted: 5/3/2009 7:09:19 AM |
Again, while I see the point of trying to curve crime and especially crime against certain groups of people, I still have concerns of thought policing and knowing exactly what is in a persons mind.
Shhhh, be very careful there, these worldviews are fragile.
The slightest bit of logic or reason could send them crashing to the ground.
I stand by my original point which was that 'hate crimes' are only effective at manipulating voters (much like gun control laws) and do more harm than good in the long run. When people mature enough to the point when they realize you can't legislate morality from the right or the left we may finally get some quality politicians...but I'm not holding my breath. | |
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Posted: 5/3/2009 5:16:48 PM |
I think that's handled differently because there are laws on the books today for that very specific purpose (Feinstein-Hatch Bill for example.)
Good to know. I was not aware of that.
When a black person is charged with a 'hate crime' he/she can turn to everyone from the NAACP to the Rev Al Sharpton for help fighting it. When a white person is charged with a 'hate crime' he/she can only turn to groups labeled racist by a national mob hell bent on being PC.
Hate to say it, but there is definitely some truth to this. | |
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Posted: 5/3/2009 6:15:46 PM | | I happened to be up at some ungodly hour this morning watching Lockup: LA County and two hours later I had new info on hate crimes. On the 7th floor of one of the "Twin Towers" (the jail) the male gay offenders are housed. They wear different colored clothing than other inmates and are housed together, no exceptions. When explaining, the officer in charge empathetically stated that otherwise, those particular prisoners are "abused." It's interesting to me simply because there are NO specific laws pertaining to this humane act, it's just what they do in order to keep safety a priority in that particular facility. Known gang members, psychiatric inmates, (obviously) the suicidal, or physically ill are also housed under certain provisions for their safety and the safety of others. Special treatment? Not in my eyes, simply the right thing to do. JMO | |
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Posted: 5/9/2009 2:09:01 PM |
They wear different colored clothing than other inmates and are housed together, no exceptions.
Special treatment? Not in my eyes, simply the right thing to do. JMO I have worked in at least two different county jails in this country.
Up north (Ohio), we housed our gay inmates together and had to have several cells for them because they actually also fought among themselves for the affections of each other. Clothing was the same for all inmates ... we just knew which cells were designated for what
Where I worked in Florida, we housed our gay inmates in with the other inmates but the jail I worked in was a "model" jail and I've never seen anything like it before. There were no bars on any cells.
There were these huge open cells with separate rooms around the perimeters ... all capable of being locked individually. Depending on the number of inmates in the cells (full capacity ... over 65 ... required two deputies) there was one deputy in the cell and up to 65 inmates. Each cell had it's own separate basketball court, sink area with microwave, washer & dryer. Each little separate room had it's own sink and toilet. The rooms on the first floor housed two inmates each ... on the second floor ... one inmate each. It was considered a privilege to have a room on the second floor. The cell trustees usually had those rooms.
Anyways ... if there were any problems with gays, or sexual offenders or whatever ... the offender got moved to lock down (single cell ... no privileges except attorneys) for a designated time frame to cool his heels and if all went well, got moved back into the same cell. If that inmate had further problems, it was back to lock down and then to some other cell where he did not know anyone.
There were two jails in that town and I worked in the smaller of the two. The other jail housed all the gang members and maximum security problems. In spite of that ... we did have murderers at out jail. I used to give medications to several of them. They were in single cells and for the most part were there because of the high profile problem and not because they were considered a risk to other inmates.
Occasionally, we did have to move our sexual offenders around ... especially the ones who had sexually molested children. Most of them eventually ended up over at the larger jail because we did not have the means to protect them.
I want to say that having worked in jails (as a nurse) I can honestly say that I never judged anyone based on their conviction or indictment or accused crime. I treated all of my inmates with respect and caring. I have never had any inmate try to hurt me and on the very few occasions that someone got a little disrespectful ... that guy was in a bad position, because the other inmates were right there defending me and setting the offender straight.
Unfortunately, I have to admit that I have worked with other nurses who were not as caring and were very judgmental. It was very distressing for me. Believe me the inmates knew who they were and all I can say is that if anything were to have ever gone down in there ... I would not have wanted to be in those nurses' shoes. | |
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