|
|
|
|
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 10:19:50 PM | Beth... I knew a couple Rainbow girls... haven't heard that term for awhile.
also can't remember who mentioned it, But the fact that Mason's could be Christians... the fact is, Most were. Ben Franklin, may not have been a church going Christian, but a Christian all the same. And founder of the Mormons, Joseph Smith was also a Mason, as well as Brigham Young. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 10:31:47 PM | I thought you might find this interesting Jack...its about being a Christian and a Mason...
NOTE: The following is the most recent decree from the Vatican on the subject of Freemasonry and is thus is the most current statement of the Church's law on this topic…
Issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on November 26, 1983.
It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church's decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.
This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance is due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.
Therefore the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.
It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 [1981] pp. 240-241).
In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.
Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.
JOSEPH Card. RATZINGER (Now he goes by the name of Pope Benedict)
Prefect
+ Fr. JEROME HAMER, O.P.
Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary
| |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 10:45:48 PM | Kat, that's not about being a Christian and a Mason... I'm sorry to disagree....
It's about being a Catholic and a Mason... Two entirely different things.
Look, I understand you have your beliefs, and thats fine, you may be right in believing it's the one and only true church, but I as well as many don't, and have a different perspective. Not knocking it... only disagreeing.
All your arguments are coming from the Catholic Church, not from and indivdule...who just believes in God... Now being Catholic is ok... But using Catholic Dogma as your argument won't cut it for anyone, other than Catholics. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 10:48:40 PM | | No, Catholics are Christians. Christianity is one big ol' group with a belief in Christ. I was just sharing documentation that a Church with actual leadership forbids freemasonry membership. Thought you might find it interesting, I did when I heard about it, that's all. JFK was a Catholic. Have a sweet night. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 10:51:49 PM | | I have nothing against Catholics... and I know they are Christians... It's the Church laws that I don't follow, cause I'm not Catholic... I might agree with some... but for example, the fact they look down on Freemasonry... Doesn't make me feel God does. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 11:00:31 PM | Its also interesting to note that the first religion to get the boot in Communist Russia was Catholicism. Where anti-Catholic sentiment is high, socialism just might be soon to follow, making how Catholics are treated in any country a good litmus test for the rise of communism. Here is a quote from that time period. It reminds me of the type of things I hear nowadays, but never in the past here in the US. Four Catholic dioceses in Russia were characterized in appearance as "a continuation of the Vatican policy to incite religious hatred and spread values alien to the Russian Orthodox people." The phrase was stated by Leonid Semyonovich, leader of Russia's Union of Orthodox Banner-bearers and the fellow who brought a case against Catholicism that was featured on the "Slushaetsya delo" ("Court in session") television programme on Russian TVTs. Just a little bit of interesting trivia for ya.
So, if you love this country, I urge you all to be nicer to Catholics despite differences in opinion. Here is why:
"The most heavily Catholic counties in the old Communist block were Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. All three of them actively resisted the Communists and were inspired in doing so by their Catholic faith.
Cardinals Mindszenty and Wyszynski were openly persecuted by the Communists in an attempt to discredit the Church. Pope Pius XII who had done so much to help war refugees -- Jewish, Christian, and otherwise -- and who was named a righteous-gentile by the Israeli government when he died in 1958 came under slanderous attack by the Communist Rolf Hochluth in his scurrilous play "The Deputy" which we now know was part of a KGB plot against the Church. And the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II was most certainly linked to the Bulgarian Secret Service acting as surrogates for KGB policies... The Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church has come into direct conflict with both the Islamic and Communist oppressions and not only survived but won out in the end!"
Source: http://art-of-attack.blogspot.com/2007/05/dungeon-fire-and-sword-catholicism.html
Ok, from masons to this. You must know my mind is on how all of this you brought up relates to politics. lol. Sorry. Back to the topic!
| |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 11:17:57 PM | Well, I don't know, but I think that the world is going through something, and there is a sense of awakening. It is different things, but one I believe is that the more people see or read things like the Da Vinci Code, and Angels and Demons, the Golden Compass, even National Treasure... People are actually looking into these things more, History, learning about the Freemasons, and Knights Templar, even the crusades... The History channel and discovery channel have all sorts of specials and features, books came out right and left. And when all of this history is dug up, It isn't pretty for the Roman Catholic Church. Personally, I don't see Catholics as the same people as those back in those days... I don't believe in their dogma, but I believe for the most part, the general membership are Christians trying to find their way like the rest of us.
Now, even some people, and I have felt it here in the forums, believe all Christians, are the same Christians as those Catholics from long ago. When we first came here and fought for are freedom, it was from tyranny... but not just that of a King, but that of the Church as well. It was that early Orthodox church that caused so much trouble and so much hate and killing, all in the name of God.
So, I just think people are getting to know the history of the catholic Church, and some things haven't helped in recent years, like the molesting... But like I said, it isn't only the Catholic Church, this history is causing hate towards all Christian Churches.
One for instants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/9/2009 11:45:57 PM | Christians were never intended to be liked when Jesus established the Church.
I firmly believe that the "awakening" you mention actually ends in a Communist shift, in my humble opinion. Many are so far gone they think they are onto something fantastic by "exposing" (lol) the only Christian Church with significant organization, huge membership numbers, cohesiveness, longevity and deep rooted history. Learning about history is fantastic. However, the subsequent theories used for much of the study we see today is not based on a quest for truth but on intolerance and hostility. These mythical "guesses" rooted in going against a religion held to be precious to some can't be tested and proven to be true yet they are used as a launching point for study, documentaries and literature anyway. That's cool, we are free. But, in reality, there are incredibly high degrees of intellectual dishonesty at work in a lot of the current literature (thanks for the word match) so the line of study does not really serve to "enlighten" as much as it serves to divide. Basing research on deeply offensive ideas that are not even true ultimately serves a primary function of breeding continued disrespect for autonomous Catholic identity that rises especially in disagreements related to some popular moral/ethical positions. Its a tip off to communism Jack. I just want you to know, that it is all related, as you were wondering about earlier...but only as a signifier of great trouble to come if laws grow lax and the states lose their own identities.
How do you think so many Jews ended up dying? Do you really think that all of those germans were so callous? They thought they were doing a good thing when they did what they did...Communism and socialism are social phenomenons, first its instigated, then it takes on life on its own. And the people are blinded by their "new discoveries" based not on concrete truth, but on hateful guesses against another social group who can be viewed as an entire society's problem. Here in America, the "problem" is seen as anything related to Western Civilization and its development.
I'm sure all you have to do is ask and Catholics, as a collective group, can site each time the Church decision makers have screwed up interiorly and exteriorly. (The Jesuits happen to be particularly open about these things, and they may be a good resource for more study of the blunders if you are interested--they tend to get in trouble a lot for going too far sometimes too. Here is an example of just how independent, bold and open the Jesuits tend to be: http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/6969?&eng=y)
:)
I hope at least 1/10th of what I shared here with you on this topic makes sense. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 12:21:03 AM |
Christians were never intended to be liked when Jesus established the Church.
Kat, The Orthodox Church from the beginning, even before the Council of Nicea was already killing in the name of God, already naming those as heretics who didn't follow their law to the end.
Your statement above, Maybe Christians knew they wouldn't be liked and chastised for following Christ, and perhaps Jesus himself wasn't out to just be liked by everyone. But he taught with Love, he showed by example of Love. He did not exclude, he excepted. He excepted the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well, even when Jews and Samaritans normally would not, especially a Jewish male and Samaritan woman.
His only violence really, for the most part, was against those who used their laws in the name of God against mankind. So you say he didn't establish his church to be liked, and wanted those to do worse things to mankind than what he accused the Sadducees & Pharisees of doing? He wanted to punish the people into believing in him by giving men the opportunity to control them and treat anyone who wouldn't adhere to their ways with death. I'm not saying they asked them to believe in Jesus, They treated any heretics (Gnostic Christians-God loving people) all the same, by killing them if they wouldn't worship the way they wanted....
This isn't a loving Jesus who doesn't care if he is liked? This is men who wants to gain control of the masses and who highjacked Christianity.
Now, you are right, Catholics have the history. But there are all sorts of Religions (Christian Religions) that have significant organization, huge membership numbers, cohesiveness & longevity, the Mormons for one. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 1:15:57 AM |
Kat, The Orthodox Church from the beginning, even before the Council of Nicea was already killing in the name of God, already naming those as heretics who didn't follow their law to the end. Ooooohh...the hidden bombshell. So. Your statement above, Maybe Christians knew they wouldn't be liked and chastised for following Christ, and perhaps Jesus himself wasn't out to just be liked by everyone. But he taught with Love, he showed by example of Love. He did not exclude, he excepted. He excepted the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well, even when Jews and Samaritans normally would not, especially a Jewish male and Samaritan woman.
If you want to take Western Civ. down, you must get the Catholic Church. The Mormans did not shape academia in its current form. The Mormans did not make way for a legal system based on natural law through works contributed by men like St. Thomas Moore, et., all. In terms of an attack on Western Civ., its not the Mormans they are after. Mormans are like tiny flies buzzing around their heads compared to the threat the Catholic Church presents to having to hear "I don't agree, here's why..." sometimes. lol.
If you want to bring law and any existing country's form to its knees, base it on something other than nature, base it on, oh, say, astrology. Wrong. So, no one has the rightful authority to claim they understand a fellow citizen's religion and then bind their civic action within a democracy and attempt to discredit an entire religion on the grounds that they are being or have been "unloving." That's manipulative at best. I know its hard to be disagreed with, so I don't blame people for trying to manipulate those with certain views into changing them, really I don't. But, I think its wrong.
His only violence really, for the most part, was against those who used their laws in the name of God against mankind. So you say he didn't establish his church to be liked, and wanted those to do worse things to mankind than what he accused the Sadducees & Pharisees of doing? He wanted to punish the people into believing in him by giving men the opportunity to control them and treat anyone who wouldn't adhere to their ways with death. I'm not saying they asked them to believe in Jesus, They treated any heretics (Gnostic Christians-God loving people) all the same, by killing them if they wouldn't worship the way they wanted.... The issue of physical violence does not apply. I stated, Christians were never intended to be liked when Jesus established the Church. We were never intended to conform to the times or the culture we live in. My responsibility as a Catholic is to not excuse or define the past but to simply uphold the truth. Whatever happened in the past is history and I am personally sorry for any of the wrongs that have been done too. Yet, all of the "dirt" on the Catholic Church is still not enough to sway me away, personally, into joining a group who takes pleasure in intentionally offending of any religious group, especially my own. Anyway, read this, its my proof that we were not intended to be liked: (Matthew 10:34) - "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." (John 14:27) - "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. (John 16:33) - "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace..." (Acts 10:36) - "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)." Christianity = Peace is found THROUGH Jesus Christ, not in government, not after a well fought war, not by way of voluntary mandatory service or by following any human leader (with the exception of Thich Nhat Hanh, ha, just kidding). Anyway, if you miss the point that the spreading of the Gospel by deed and word is all about informing others of the dominion of Jesus Christ as Lord, you can miss the entire point of Christianity and get stuck in non-related history matters, in my humble opinion, of course. What I'm trying to say now is that no matter what mistakes the Church has made, and in its highjacks, or whatever, ultimately, Jesus Christ remains the Son of God and those who he came for, need to know about him. Yes, what criminals did in the name of religion was a tremendous autrocity . I know that Jack, I know that. This isn't a loving Jesus who doesn't care if he is liked? This is men who wants to gain control of the masses and who highjacked Christianity. I've caught a bad apple using his authority as a seminarian to harm others and I reported him to officials. It happens. I have no doubt that there has been times in history when things have been completely out of hand. These bits of history reflecting typical human flaws still don't negate the power of the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ, in my book. Oh no, I'm so sleepy, I hope I've made sense. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 1:39:35 AM | Kat, it's ok, It is late, and I don't mean to put you on the spot. I'm not saying that all about the Catholic religion is bad, Just that there is history, and that some Christians, a lot, believe in what your last comments were, they believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and in Jesus and God. And these men that you are talking about, the government isn't all we need to be watchful from, we need, to not let those Religions who think they are above others, put those other Christians down. I'm saying a Catholic is equal to a Mormon, who is equal to anyone else. It is only God who decides who hears his voice, and not that of a Church. Use the church to learn, don't let it use you to control.
Now ok, going to church is great. You can study the scriptures, learn about Christ with other like minded people and be baptist and all that... But any church, from the largest to the smallest, to even worshiping in your own home.
It's about the size of your heart..... Not the size of your church.
and again, I know it's late, and am sorry if I put you on the spot. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 8:19:43 AM | Why are you trying to teach me who to be?
I'm not doing that to you.
Don't use your knowledge of Numerology to try to control me.
Just razzing you. But it is very weird that you assume a role of pastor in my life when a simple "I disagree" would suffice. Don't you think that's weird Jack? I do. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 9:37:51 AM | Sorry, I'm far from being anything like a pastor (churches would probably collapse when I walk in), and I'm not trying to control anything... and only want you to be who you are, I'm only discussing/debating with you the things that you say. You have all the right to be who you are and what you want to be.
I can only say what I think and only have control of myself... and even that is debatable...
When you get into discussion on here it seems a lot gets missed in translation. It really is hard to say all that you are thinking, while pecking away at this keyboard. It is also hard to know what someone else is meaning entirely, so conversations can be misunderstood, and perhaps get off target.
It's not about you or me, when it comes to searching out information and trying to understand the truth, we all need to be open to all things, because we can not know for sure if what we know is the absolute truth, we can believe it is, and have faith that it is, and if that is good enough for us, we can except that. But if it isn't, we need to keep searching.
When someone uses their belief wether it's based in a Church, a Political party or any other organization and base all of what they are using as example from that one place if another person disagrees with that organization, it will be hard for them to get anything from it.
example, if someone wants to talk about a subject on politics, and the only views and examples are from a certain party, than your discussing that parties, political views. not politics. Same with religion, your example stating that Christians are against the Freemasons, because the Catholics are, isn't accurate. Yes, Catholics are Christians, But it is Catholics, in your statement that are against Freemasons, not Christians. You can't use that as an example. If you said, Catholics, Mormons, Baptist, and other Christians have come out and stated that they were against freemasons, that statement still has holes, but, would be more true.
I'm not attacking you or the Catholic church, only saying you can't say because Catholics believe in something, that all Christians believe in it. I'm not trying to ramble here, just don't want you to think this is my opinion trying to talk you out of your opinion, what you believe is what you believe, but there are a lot of things other Christians don't go along with what the Catholic Church stands for, so using an Orthodox Catholic regulation or rule to debate what Christians should believe won't work, Using the same type of Mormon or Baptist laws, will be the same. They only matter to those who belong to those organizations.
So when I disagree, don't take it personal, I'm disagreeing with that regulation that a church feels they need to put on people. And even in that statement, I don't disagree with everything the Catholics, Mormons, Born again... any other organization believes in. I just happen to be a Christian, who doesn't belong to any organized religion. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 10:38:28 AM | I'm only discussing/debating with you the things that you say. You have all the right to be who you are and what you want to be. No, you are not really discussing/debating things that I say. You never addressed the actual contents on what the Catechism had to say about divination and magic. You never addressed the actual contents of what was in the Mason related letter I shared with you.
You are making your points, and sharing your point of view on much broader matters. I did not volunteer to get sucked into that or to discuss the merits or perils of organized religion. I mean, we can if you want, but that does not mean that I'll agree with what you have to share, because I believe that we would not even have knowledge of Christ without the Churches bouncing back after overcoming Muslim attempts to dominate religion.
Same with religion, your example stating that Christians are against the Freemasons, because the Catholics are, isn't accurate.
I never stated that Christians are against freemasons, period. And certainly, Catholics are not against people who call themselves freemasons. Their association's doctrines simply have been indicated to be in conflict with those of a very large Christian Church. This point just "is." No need to read too much into it. Its simply a fact I shared regarding the topic of the Masons. This is all I stated on the topic of Masons: "I thought you might find this interesting Jack...its about being a Christian and a Mason..." Catholics are Christians.
When someone uses their belief wether it's based in a Church, a Political party or any other organization and base all of what they are using as example from that one place if another person disagrees with that organization, it will be hard for them to get anything from it. This is the responsibility of each individual to work out. For example, I had to reconcile a few genocides that took place in the name of Christianity--and I also had to reconcile the Church's less than militant attitude about slavery there for a while too. I did. So today, I'm not going to simply drop the Church's ideas I agree with so that Christianity can become more "popular." I'll speak the ideas I agree with boldly on days when I'm in the mood to do so. Just as you speak boldly about things you believe and like. That's freedom Jack.
So when I disagree, don't take it personal, I'm disagreeing with that regulation that a church feels they need to put on people. I don't take it personally. I am simply suggesting that you have no role to play in my spiritual evolution and that such discourse is highly inappropriate. Big difference. I understand that you don't appreciate organized religion. But, is the price of your choice to denounce organized religion a just opening to disparage me for making a different choice?
One is more likely to perceive being put upon until they are willing to look at the reasoning behind the beliefs to decide whether if they agree with the reasoning behind such beliefs or not. Most don't get that far, because they let stereotypes rule their reasoning process. Until a person can get to the point of reading and researching the rationale behind the beliefs some members of organized religions hold, there will be a struggle to comprehend why some are so adamant about what they happen to believe is true, just and right, quite naturally, I think. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 10:49:47 AM | | You know, california has its own little secret society meeting place. Well, I'm not sure if a "good ol' boys" club can be considered a secret society, but the bohemian club does thier anual effigie buring ritual up in the bohemian grove near Monte Rio. All to the ominious tones of Walter Cronkite.... owww, scary :) | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 11:16:48 AM | WOW, really? Kat, you can believe what you want, how many times do I have to say... I have nothing against any religion, go for it, if this is what you believe.
No, you are not really discussing/debating things that I say. You never addressed the actual contents on what the Catechism had to say about divination and magic.
I attempted this twice, is there a trick question here, look... I'm an idiot.. I don't get? I don't know what the heck you want from me? I gave as much as I have on what your Catechism document said. I know nothing about Catechism and have nothing else other than what I have said about divination and magic.
I never stated that Christians are against freemasons, period. And certainly, Catholics are not against people who call themselves freemasons.
Ok, sorry, I'm wrong... You said what Christians think about Freemasons.... and then attached a letter that the Catholic put out condemning it and telling their church members not to join it. So, your whole concept is that your were showing me throw a document from the Catholic Church on how Catholics should think about freemasons, but put it under the captions of how Christians think about Freemasons.
I only told you that that letter only states what Catholics believe, It's a Catholic document... That in fact some other Christians think different, so it is not a good way to speak for Christians about the matter. I didn't say Catholics were not Christians... that only you can not use Church doctrine to speak for all Christians... It's simple really... Nothing personal about you or the Catholic Church, Now if you just wanted me to see what Catholics thought about it, Fine... no problem, I don't see them as hating Freemasons, only that they do not approve of their members to join a Mason group...
This is the responsibility of each individual to work out. For example, I had to reconcile a few genocides that took place in the name of Christianity--and I also had to reconcile the Church's less than militant attitude about slavery there for a while too. I did. So today, I'm not going to simply drop the Church's ideas I agree with so that Christianity can become more "popular." I'll speak the ideas I agree with boldly on days when I'm in the mood to do so. Just as you speak boldly about things you believe and like. That's freedom Jack.
Look, I'm not telling you Catholics are bad, and to not have faith.. You should follow your own convictions... and if you learn things through going to Catholic events and abiding by Catholic laws and use these things as your moral guide... thats great... I only mention that you cannot speak for all Christians by quoting Catholic Church doctrine. Everything you believe isn't everything everyone else does, If your in a Bible study with other Catholics, fine, talk all you want about those Catholic Dogmas... but to other Christians, they are not good example for the debate on Christ. Don't get bent if someone disagrees.
I don't take it personally. I am simply suggesting that you have no role to play in my spiritual evolution and that such discourse is highly inappropriate. Big difference. I understand that you don't appreciate organized religion. But, is the price of your choice to denounce organized religion a just opening to disparage me for making a different choice?
I have absolutely no desire to form any opinion over you concerning your spiritual evolution, sorry if this is what you think is going on. As far as organized religion, your making a big assumption. I chose not to belong to any Church, this doesn't mean I don't appreciate organized religion. I believe it is necessary to a point. I just believe the people who go to church, should also think for themselves... and for the most part, they probably do. As far as you're concerned, I don't know how I can make it any clearer... I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything ... You need to do what you do, I don't think that what ever decision you make concerns me, I also don't think that you being Catholic is bad... I believe people should follow there own hearts. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 11:37:53 AM | WOW, really? Kat, you can believe what you want, how many times do I have to say... I have nothing against any religion, go for it, if this is what you believe. That's good.
I know nothing about Catechism and have nothing else other than what I have said about divination and magic.
Ideas were presented for consideration, I was looking forward to reading what you thought about them.
So, your whole concept is that your were showing me throw a document from the Catholic Church on how Catholics should think about freemasons, but put it under the captions of how Christians think about Freemasons. Now, I can't refer to Catholics as Christians? You referred to many as Christians. When I do it, its wrong--or its attempting to speak for all? Please don't make that assumption. You shared, "I also can't remember who mentioned it, But the fact that Mason's could be Christians... the fact is, Most were." I shared, "I thought you might find this interesting Jack...its about being a Christian and a Mason..." Outside of the fact that the addition of my evidence made your generalization about Christians appear to be false, in light of the fact that you mentioned Ben Frank as being a mason, I think its really compelling that JFK was of the Catholic Christian variety who forbids mason membership ended up dead. Don't you? This is a discussion on secret societies, is it not?
If only you could stop lecturing me and consider what I have to share...lol...
I only mention that you cannot speak for all Christians by quoting Catholic Church doctrine. Everything you believe isn't everything everyone else does, If your in a Bible study with other Catholics, fine, talk all you want about those Catholic Dogmas... but to other Christians, they are not good example for the debate on Christ. Don't get bent if someone disagrees. There you go with the "pastoring" again Jack. Not once have I said what I believe is is what everyone else does. Not once have I asked about Bible study. Not once have I attempted to speak for all Christians. Not once have gotten bent on disagreement here. I don't understand where you are going with this. Are you projecting something onto me?
I just believe the people who go to church, should also think for themselves... and for the most part, they probably do. And I think that all people should think for themselves. We have no major difference of opinion on this matter, or do we? | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 12:23:48 PM |
Now, I can't refer to Catholics as Christians? You referred to many as Christians. When I do it, its wrong--or its attempting to speak for all? Please don't make that assumption. You shared, "I also can't remember who mentioned it, But the fact that Mason's could be Christians... the fact is, Most were." I shared, "I thought you might find this interesting Jack...its about being a Christian and a Mason..." In light of the fact that you mentioned Ben Frank as being a mason, I think its really compelling that JFK was of the Catholic Christian variety who forbids mason membership ended up dead. Don't you? This is a discussion on secret societies, is it not?
If only you could stop lecturing me and consider what I have to share...lol...
Again, if you read everything I have written, it is nothing about referring to Catholics as Christians or not... I believe Catholics can be a Christian voice as much as anyone else. I get your point, that some Christians (maybe even more than only Catholics) may not find the freemason desirable. My point wasn't wether if freemason were Christian and that if you were not a freemason you were not Christian, My comment was that I believed that a lot were Christian, most in fact. The fact that Catholics look down upon joining the mason, doesn't change that a lot of Masons were Christians, just maybe not Catholic Christians.
And as far as some conspiracy about JFK being Catholic and not a Mason was why he was murdered? Well, Thats a new one... Who knows?
There you go with the "pastoring" again Jack. Not once have I said what I believe is is what everyone else does. Not once have I asked about Bible study. Not once have I attempted to speak for all Christians. Not once have gotten bent on disagreement here. I don't understand where you are going with this. Are you projecting something onto me?
I was only using bible study as an example, It could be the bible study of a Mormon group. If you are discussing the bible and going by what it says, all can be involved. When you start bring into the conversation church dogma (Like it's stand on something... It's own unique rule about something) than you loss people who don't buy into that. If everyone is a member and buy into it... no problem. But this was just an example.
I'm sorry if you think I am preaching at you, if I'm coming off that way.... sorry. But I could have used any example. If you are talking to someone about cartooning and they have a different style and technique thats fine, they were taught at a different school, or just simply learned it differently. But if one keeps using an others style as the standard, and you don't believe in that as being the standard, you can listen, but you might disagree. I prefer people using their own standard rather than someone else's. But this is me, that doesn't make them wrong. I only will not buy into their example, because it doesn't come from a place I believe.
See, I feel caught up in this conversation as well, maybe best to just move on, sorry if you think I some how am trying to manipulate you. I only disagreed with something you based an argument on, and we got into this craziness of debating how to debate. I don't care how you do things, I only will respond the way I do, when I disagree... not to change your mind, but only to let you know... I disagree.
The Idea of JFK and the Masons as a theory of what might have happened to him is interesting, I'm not ready to buy into, never thought of that before, but if you have some proof, would love to see it. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 12:53:30 PM | Ok cool. No worries.
So, about the masonic plot to kill JFK. First, have you heard his speech on secret societies?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WSGwnz7XpY
Can you name another president who came out in public to warn the people of secret societies?
never thought of that before, but if you have some proof, would love to see it.
I'm a wee bit shocked. Of course, I'll share anything I can. But, at least if there really are evil masons running around seeking world domination, then, the above speech would certainly make him a serious target and major menace to secret objectives. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 1:21:47 PM | | I did find that interesting... hyped... but never heard him speak out against that?... was that his voice... just curious... was he talking on the radio.. why not show him? Just a bit skeptical... | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 1:22:18 PM | That was interesting, there were some of the speeches from around the world, of Presidents who mentioned the New World Order as well.
I have include this from there... a fun video about how evil TV is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uMMOQwqBHU&NR=1
The thing is about the masonic symbols, and the Illuminati and New World Order I feel is that it's muddied up... I mean the Illuminati infiltrated the Masons back in France when it began, but the Masons had been around longer, How much of the masons are really controlled by the Illuminati? Is it the Illuminati? or Masons? or both that have created this New World Order? or neither? Even the Templars and Masons had a connection, some say that the Templars joined the Masons after that friday the 13th back in 1303 ? sometime back then.
I think there are seekers? keepers? watchers? what ever you want to call them, a community that has been trying to protect something... and a group that has been fighting against that... that they have changed names, maybe even changed what they have been protecting or fighting... Just as humans, we will always have secrets and those that want to uncover those secrets. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 1:41:18 PM | Or, here is another possibility...
What if a bunch of criminals just pose as Masons?
Or, what if anti-mason sentiment is equivalent to other hostile sentiments held against any groups that happen to have built a name for themselves? Of course, none of this negates the potential that there are real secret societies floating around out there, some of which perhaps have a wide assortment of folks like Masonic, Morman, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Fundamentalist, South American, African, European, Protestant, Black, White, and even maybe Green people, etc., participating as members. What if all of the conspiracy theories are just reflections of humanity expressing their natural fears while attempting to put a name and a group's face on something so elusive, so evil, like the collective consequence of greed and corruption? For example, I've been reading up on fluoride. The consensus seems to be that its a toxic pollutant and that companies are saved from having to deal with waste disposal if this fluoride is purchased by water companies. The conspiracy theorist might think, "they are poisoning us on purpose, they are trying to kill us!" And, a more objective person might conclude, "there are loop holes in existing laws that are allowing for companies to influence policies that create cost saving strategies in each State with little regard for the health of the people. Gotta fix that..."
Oh, and about the TV issue. A conspiracy theorist might conclude, "they are controlling the airways! Turn off your TV!" A more objective person might simply conclude that tv dulls minds, period. | |
|
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 3:02:46 PM | Actually up until Vatican II Catholics didnt call themselves Christian as much as the only legit Christ based religion. Before Vatican II we had the Association of Catholic Christians and Jews, who ran ads in the media. In fact before Vatican II as a Catholic one could not attend the marriage of a non Catholic without getting the approval of ones Priest or Bishop. Which is one reason the Catholic church didnt like Masons, since it was Protestant based. Now Catholics, Jews, and others can join the Masons.
When I was a Rainbow Girl my family was Presbyterian. Then in high school I attended a Catholic convent boarding school and converted to the Catholic faith. Now I am a Thomas Merton type Catholic. And consider myself non religious.
The split with the Roman church and the Eastern orthodox churches also had roots in the fact that the Eastern church leaders marry just as an Orthodox practicing Jew would have done. And Christ was an observant Jew. Wonder how many Christians even know of the Coptic church which is very much orthodox
IHeardUonTheRadio the Bohemian club at the grove up on the Russian River isn't spooky. NYC is supposed to have more secret clubs than any state. Most of the Ivy League universities have Skull and Bones type clubs. Look at Japan theatre and even Shakespeare where originally even the female roles were played by men.
~Beth~ | |
|
| |
| History, Genealogy & Secret Societies.
Posted: 5/10/2009 4:57:18 PM | Now Catholics, Jews, and others can join the Masons.
Are you saying the Church allows people to join the Masons now or are you saying the Masons now allow Catholics and Jews to join? If you are saying that the Catholic Church allows Mason membership today, you are mistaken.
Now I am a Thomas Merton type Catholic.
I love Thomas Merton. He was a great Trappist monk--and a very devote religious who resided at the Our Lady of Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky. He died in 1968 of a freak accident of sorts. He was such a neat fellow. I have reviewed or read most of what he has written. The book, Seeds Of Contemplation is very nice. I love that guy so much... | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
