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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/9/2009 6:54:21 PM |
I'll be number 2 in line saying Isdime you owe Wiyan the lady an apology I disagree. Call a spade a spade. Wiyan's [in particular, though not alone] arguments have been 90%+ non-rational and non-responsible from a health care perspective.
Men on these fora say rude things to each other all the time and no one blinks an eye; we women won't melt if you say them to us and don't really need to be defended either.
In regard to the statement, about Wiyan being a joke, although not a polite way of presenting one's argument, I do tend to agree with Isdime on this one. Just because a person shows passion about a topic, does not make them right. And when that passion leads to influencing people into making poor decisions, then I think it's ok to call someone on that. Even if they are a girl. Remember not to drink the coolaid.
So has anyone heard from our Swineflu friend, Rhino lately? | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/9/2009 9:39:35 PM |
knew he was against Obama, but obviously had no idea about what he was " for "
Terrific. Then I think you're a joke. That didn't hurt did it? | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/9/2009 11:26:20 PM |
Here's a summary: vaccination itself sickens potentially thousands. Deaths and serious illnesses are exceedingly rare, and when known to be caused by the vaccine itself, it's typically non-flu vaccines for which risks are already known [eg., polio]. However, flu vaccine alone prevents deaths and hospitalizations of MILLIONS, either directly by vaccination, or by the resulting herd immunity.
The fact is- (and multiple reliable studies show) that flu shots are ineffective in every age group. Though highly reputable publications document this information hardly seems to matter to those who continually promote their use. http://newswithviews.com/Tenpenny/sherri6.htm
Furthermore, most people suffering from fever, fatigue, cough and aching muscles think they have the flu. They do not. Instead, they have an "influenza-like illness" (ILI) associated with many different "germs" such as rhinoviruses, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), adenoviruses, parainfluenza viruses, etc., but NOT the flu virus. MMWR.2001;50(44):984-986
Every year people are urged to get the flu shot. According to the media, the medical establishment and the government, we are facing a possible flu epedemic, the flu shot is safe and it saves lives. It is also stated that every year, the flu kills over 30,000 Americans ever year. That is simply NOT true either. Government statistics lump flu and pneumonia deaths together, but flu deaths are only a small fraction of the total.
For example:
In 2002 when flu plus pneumonia deaths were reported at over 60,000, only 753 were flu deaths. In 2001 the number of flu deaths was 267. Does this justify giving a poorly tested and dangerous vaccine to millions of people?
Simonsen L et al. Impact of influenza vaccination on seasonal mortality in the US elderly population. Archives of Internal Medicine. 2005;165;265-272
http://cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr51/nvsr51_05.pdf
Something else to be considered for those choosing to accept a shot 'in the dark':
1)When poison is taken by the mouth, the internal defense system has a chance to quickly eject some of it by vomiting, but when the poisons are shot directly into the body, bypassing all the natural safeguards, these dangerous poisons circulate immediately throughout the entire body in a matter of seconds and keep on circulating until all the cells are poisoned.
2)Among many other toxins laden within most vaccinations is the neuro-toxin Mercury. There are 25 micrograms of mercury per dose in most flu shots. That number is five times the maximum amount judged safe by the CDC for a 110 lb. person. Most people don't know this. In 1999 goverment agencies called for the removal of mercury in vaccines. However, many vaccines are still permitted to have unsafe levels of mercury. Some of this year's flu vaccines still contain mercury.
3) They also contain: Aluminum, Ammonium Sulfate, Beta-Propiolactone, Gelatin,Genetically modified Yeast,Formaldehyde,Human and Animal cells,Latex Rubber,Micro-Organisms,Monosodium Glutamate, Phenol/Phenoxyethanol, Polysorbate 80, Tri(n) Butylphosphate, among 'other' highly suspected and severe risk
adjuvant ingredients that very well may have been developed for use with these vaccines. I won't even elaborate on what all these ingredients have a potential for on the scale of possible causitive degenerative diseases. | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:12:42 AM | Well it's been fun debating w/ all the circular thinkers here going round and round, but, as it turns out, I am much more interested now in following the case filed yesterday in DC court, 'Null et al vs FDA et al' which was an emergency injunction filed by 6 medical workers (several from NY state) to STOP the FDA from forcing an inadequately tested vaccine on citizens and workers. And no Frogo, I am not giving you the link so you can put down the source. Anyone who wants to know about the injunction is welcome to google the information themself or get ahold of the court. Bluesman, I am sure this is music to your ears. Thank you blues and Million for your genteel, and finally, NS Lass, in case you haven't read the rules of POF lately-namecalling and character attacks get people banned from the forums EVEN IF they do said namecalling in the sacrosanct 'name of science' | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:47:08 AM | ^^^^It's the feminist in me. I've noted that the men can be blunt with each other and name call and they argue it out with each other, but when a man says something inappropriate to a woman, it's not the woman who defends herself; men come to her defense. I'm pretty sure you're capable of defending yourself is all I'm saying.
As for the issue at hand, you and I sit on opposite sides of the fence, and to be honest I think that what you're preaching could be detrimental to people. Name calling is not nice and happens to not be allowed on POF, but what you're doing is dangerous because you are creating fear in people and claiming to be preaching the enlightened truth. That's what I have a problem with. | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 7:42:03 AM |
but what you're doing is dangerous because you are creating fear in people and claiming to be preaching the enlightened truth. That's what I have a problem with.
can you dispute her truth ?
maybe she IS the one with information to save lives..
maybe even YOURS
Thanks to Wiyan and Fitman for those informative posts
we need all the information we can get to make a proper choice.
If they give us a choice down the road that is . | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 7:52:17 AM | | Thanks NSLass, but I don't need a feminist 'manager' to ward off anyone from myself. Especially not one who claims "90% of what I say is not rational', who #1 doesn't even have a college degree, and #2 doesn't work in the healthcare field and #3 is incapable of reading links and doing research on an issue bc it might conflict with her prevailing view. Unlike you, I have been doing research on vaccines and vaccine injuries since 1998.Unlike some of the yahoos on here, I know what medpub is and I use it! Note: when issues become political, it's always a good idea to follow the money. It doesn't affect me if those of you who strongly believe you should take the swine flu vaccine do so. The information I posted was for anyone to leave or take. I wholeheartedly agree with you that NOONE should have the authority over what we do with our own bodies but ourselves. The reason this thread was started to begin with, by a lawyer nonetheless was over the very issue of inviolating our constitutional rights-that is serious-in fact any infringement of our civil liberties is serious, no matter what it is in regards to | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 7:55:46 AM | | correction-this thread wasn't started by an atty, the other one. ' swine flu is serious business', by bluesman was-got the two mixed up | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:41:00 AM | Yes, I can dispute her truth. Before vaccines children were routinely mamed or killed from polio and smallpox. Measles is barely a notable childhood disease now. UNESCO states that children's lives could be saved in 3rd world countries if only they had vaccinations available to them. Before dogs were vaccinated against rabies, they infected their owners with that incurable disease.
Scientists have shown that there is no causal link with vaccines and autism, that the mercury levels are so low that they equal that found in a can of tuna. People's lifespans are increasing with every generation because we are preventing death from disease...if there were no vaccinations, those lifespans would be shorter.
I agree that people need to be able to make their own choices about a flu vaccine because everyone's situation is different, but it should be based on medical facts and not fear that the government is in a conspiracy to control us | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:47:01 AM | Posted this last post before reading yours, Wiyan. I've read your links and have found no compelling reason for me to be worried about getting a flu shot, other than I'm not particularly worried about getting the flu myself because I'm pretty healthy.
You're wrong about who I am, though, and what access to information I do have. Note, it's "PubMed", not "medpub" | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 8:48:31 AM | It always amuses me to see people claiming expertise and missing basic details like "PubMed," not medpub.
Unless, of course, you mean that you hang out with physicians at happy hour. :)
(From the guy who has at various points actually made a living using PubMed... followed by actually searching the periodical stacks at the (certain Ivy League school) Medical School Library for hours and hours and hours... doing biomedical patent research.) | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 9:23:59 AM | Okay .... now .... why is it taking so long to get the vaccinations out?
since they make flu vaccines every year and they have known about this H1N1 virus threat for quite some time and as Frogo stated that is the same as the 1919 so called Spanish Flue ..... and now we are moving into the second outbreak stage and still no shots available. ... They should have been available a long time ago if this was considered a real threat [last year]
Not a conspiracy ... just incompetence of government. | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:42:46 AM |
since they make flu vaccines every year and they have known about this H1N1 virus threat for quite some time
Every year's vaccine research begins in the previous year, with attempts to predict which regional strains will be most likely to spread. The preparations continue with predictions of how those strains will evolve. Then potential vaccines and antivirals have to be actually tested.
This year's H1N1 outbreak appeared in April. That's many months less preparation time, although prediction is far less a factor. There was no to prepare for it last year, since it wasn't known to exist or be developing.
and as Frogo stated that is the same as the 1919 so called Spanish Flue
Not "the same". There are a number of families of influenza, each of which has many variants. A variant of H1N1 was responsible for the 1918 pandemic, and another variant is responsible for the current one. Additional variants account for some of the seasonal flus. Each is different enough to require a separate vaccine, although sometimes immunity to one or more will help. | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/11/2009 6:17:34 AM | Wiyan, I tried twice to access this link that you posted, www.express.co.uk/posts/view/131817/Jab-as-deadly-as-the-cancer-#
Both times, I ran up against "this article has been removed"
Edit: I was able to find some info on Diane Harper, whom I believe is the Dr. Diane Wiyan is referring to, and actually, she sounds like she has a balanced point of view on vaccinations; here is an excerpt, where she's commenting on Gardasil
From: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/578110
"Dr. Harper notes that she has received money from both Merck and GlaxoSmithKline for consultation about and conducting clinical trials on the HPV vaccines. "This is a good vaccine and it is generally safe," she said.
However, there is also another very important part to the cervical cancer prevention story, Dr. Harper said, and that is regular Pap tests. Even women who are vaccinated need to have regular Pap testing, as otherwise they are still at risk of developing cervical cancer. And women who decide not to have the vaccine can still protect themselves by undergoing Pap testing.
Dr. Harper feels this message has not been made clear to the general public and that it has been overshadowed by what she considers to be aggressive and inappropriate promotion of Gardasil. As a gynecologist dealing with the general population, her advice on the HPV vaccine is that "if you are at all concerned, then don't have the vaccine — have regular Pap smears and you will be equally protected from cervical cancer."
She continued, "Whether or not to get vaccinated with Gardasil is a personal choice by each girl/woman and/or her parents." Each individual must weigh her family health history and whether it may put her at any possible risk for an adverse event that Gardasil might trigger (not even necessarily cause). As examples, Dr. Harper mentioned family history of motor neuron disease or autoimmune diseases, which could affect how the person reacts to the vaccine. She illustrated this point by saying: "Salt does not usually kill anybody, but for a person with congestive heart failure, it could lead to fatal pulmonary edema, so you could say that salt caused their death, as it was the last straw that broke the camel's back." "
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/11/2009 9:11:11 PM | nice post NSLass about Dr Harper-the article you read may have been published before the one I posted, where she reversed her position in supporting that particular vaccine. I agree w/ you that the polio vaccine, original measles vax and also smallpox vax saved millions of lives. Vaccine development has changed, one of the big changes being combinants ie MMR eg, combining more than one vaccine, one strain, etc
MMR is debated by some MD's for damages their research says it causes, and also, and this is a very big point: Adjuvants. The method of entry into the corporal system can completely change how a substance such as mercury for ex is processed by the body. If you eat tuna that has Mercury in it, your liver can help flush it out, but if Mercury Thimerosal is INJECTED into your bloodstream, it can become ethyl mercury and cross the bloodbrain barrier- A good book pointing out this distinction is " the Sanctity of Human Blood' by Tim O'Shea if you are interested. There is also an autoimmune response effect of later vaccine science called molecular mimicry, which researchers such as Byron Hyde have pointed out in published reviews Peace-Wiyan | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/11/2009 9:48:40 PM |
if Mercury Thimerosal is INJECTED into your bloodstream, it can become ethyl mercury and cross the bloodbrain barrier
We'll know who got the shot then. Soon as the temperature goes above 80, their eyes will flash red. You watch. (Just kidding. It's more in the 70 range).
Wiyan I don't know if we brought anyone over. It's personal decision time for everyone. | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:42:21 AM | Wiyan: I'm not sure that the article you posted quoted Dr. Harper within context. That might be why the UK paper pulled it down from their Web site. Everything I've read where she's commenting on an HPV vaccine indicates that she thinks it's safe, but that more thought has to put into the age at which we vaccinate our girls. That is, if you vaccinate them too young the immunity might wear off when they become sexually active but if you wait too long they might have already caught the virus. That is, she's not saying the vaccine is unsafe, but that its administration might not be effective if it causes a false sense of security.
Here's another site where she's quoted: http://www.parenthood.com/article-topics/article-topics.php?Article_ID=10226
I'll have a look at the mercury topic you mention | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/12/2009 7:08:20 AM | A couple more points before I start preparing turkey dinner for the family:
The mercury issue that keeps coming back appears to be the issue of its link to autism, if I'm understanding correctly. From what I've read on that subject, the States removed the mercury-form thimerosal from vaccines in 1999 because there was a scare that it was linked to autism. After that, autism rates were monitored within the States and although there was a rapid decrease in the use of thimerosal-containing vaccines, autism rates in children who were of vaccination age continued to rise. Another study showed that there was no difference in autism rates between the States when they administered thimerosal-containing vaccines with countries where there was no thimerosal in their vaccines; again proving no link between thimerosal and autism.
I also looked on Amazon.com at the book you suggested about the sanctity of blood, which admittedly I have not had a chance to read, but what was scary were the number of comments from parents who read the book and as a result had decided against vaccinating their children. As others have pointed out in this thread, there is such a thing as "herd immunity"; that is, as long as most of the herd is innoculated, it should stay healthy. However, there is a tipping point and if people continue to refuse to have their children vaccinated, then serious childhood illnesses will resurface. | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:18:33 AM | | yep Bluesman to each their own. I'm not here to change anyone's mind about what they do w/ their own body. I am here to emphasize that this SHOULD be a personal choice that's constitutionally protected, and several of us have stated our reasons why we feel the way we do. It is each of our responsibility to educate ourselves on the best choice for us. Some have more interest or reason to research the topic than others.To all those who prefer the shot, I wish you good health. To those who say NO WAY to the jab, I understand. | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/12/2009 9:41:19 AM | NSLass-here's some info for you-was gonna put link-but waaaay to long, so I'll give you google search terms. This info appears more pro vaccine than I am, but worth checking out some of the info:
Google "ByronHyde Vaccines Stephanie Cave" the first link it pulls up is full of all kinds of info on many different vaccines | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/12/2009 9:10:41 PM | | hi... I am not forcing anyone to refuse vaccines and I do not appreciate being forced to take them... and to those who are suggesting that we who refuse vaccines are the cause of the spread of viruses, well that is another example of misinformation that causes fear, panic, hate and persecution... nothing new under the sun... blessings | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/12/2009 9:14:38 PM | | I think everything is a conspiracy now days. Why worry about swine flu when everything else is modern life is going to kill you??? | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/13/2009 6:09:19 PM | I did a little reaseach on the internet. The best summation I found was in good old Wikipedia. Have a look under" Thimerosal Controversy".
"The research of Mark Geier, the main source of epidemiologic data used by supporters of a link between thiomersal and autism, has received considerable criticism,[39] including charges of not presenting methods and statistical analyses to others for verification,[34] improperly analyzing data taken from Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System,[34][37] as well as either mislabelling or confusing fundamental statistical terms in his papers.[37]
Further evidence of the position of the scientific consensus includes the rejection of a causal link between thimerosal and autism by the main scientific and medical professional bodies including the American Medical Association,[40] the American Academy of Pediatrics,[41] the American College of Medical Toxicology,[42] the Canadian Paediatric Society,[43] the National Academy of Sciences,[37] the Food and Drug Administration,[4] Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,[10] the World Health Organization,[9] the Public Health Agency of Canada,[44] and the European Medicines Agency.[45]"
Read the chapter underneath this on the "effects of the controversy". It's really quite scary the kind of damage this type of misinformation can cause. | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/13/2009 7:03:37 PM | Google: "Thomas Vaerstraten (sp) leak 2000 CDC Thimerosal Freedom of Information Act"-
that'll give you more info on the agency you trust | |
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| Swine flu the biggest threat EVER
Posted: 10/13/2009 7:41:39 PM | Google "2000 Simpsonwood CDC conference" and look at the article in Wikipedia.
that'll give you more info on the agency you trust
It's not just the CDC but most of the other medical bodies in the Western World agree that there is no correlation. Also refer back to Desert Rhino's comments a few pages back on what happens when mass immunization is discontinued (Russia).
Wiyan- you seem like a nice person but- if I'm sitting in my fifth floor apartment and I see a mosquito, do I think "That thing might have malaria!" and jump out the window?
Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. These concerns are small in comparison with the lives that are at risk by getting these diseases. Until someone discovers a better way, without risking the lives of people by doing nothing - I'll take the vaccine.
Pick your poison and your information I guess. I'll just play the odds and I like my chance much better than yours. | |
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