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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 12:25:45 PM | | Stay out of it. Your younger son apparently has little regard for ethical behaviour and you aren't likely to instill ethics in him atthis stage of his of life. All you'll do is alienate one or both of your sons. Your older son WILL find out unless he's a complete idiot. You should hope he does hear it from someone else before he has the opportunity to hear it from you. Otherwise, he'll be pissed off at you for not telling him. If my father had tried to help cover up something like that, I know I'd have been pissed off. Look at it this way. The sooner your older son finds out, the sooner you have a good chance of getting rid of that girl unless your younger son wants her. In that case, they deserve each other. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 2:10:19 PM |
please try and understand that any harshness from other posters here - or anywhere comes from their own hurts as they relate them to your story(s). The forums are a way for people to learn and vent. I disagree with this but not entirely.. There are some, I'm sure that vent due to their "own hurts" .. however; I suspect most answer in anger because they know BETTER and are incredulous that people can't figure this sh*t out for themselves. Either way.. and IMO its a p*ss-poor way to try and help someone but such is human nature.
Hopefully your boys straighten out their behaviour.. You realize, I hope, that Both of them have some issues to even want to have anything to do with this girl when they both know she is mentally unstable, skanky, manipulative, untrustworthy.. and so on. Frankly.. I'd be looking into government sponsored counceling (if you can't afford it) Best
~ Wishes ~ | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 2:14:31 PM | OP... here's my 2 cents... Stay involved. In this situation, be the mediator and peace maker.
Don't let this become a wedge between your sons.
I personally observed the effects of the "do nothing" approach the parents in one family I know did when a spat occurred between two brothers when they were around the same age... and the result is they stop talking and can't even be in the same room as the other even though over 10 years went by.
I've also seen the other effect where two male cousins in my family didn't get along at first (one used to beat up/boss around the other) and I as well as their parents intervened. I personally made the aggressor apologize and shake the other boys hand to make peace.
The net result is that today, they are like best buddies.
Your younger son succumbed to temptation. At the age of 20, hormones combined with the 'forbidden fruit' temptation will do that to guys.
Have your younger son explain this to your older son and have him give a heartfelt apology.
And don't let either one lose sight of the fact that this girl was the INSTIGATOR to this problem... and drive home the fact that there are people (men and women) in the world who will drag you down if you give them the chance.
And I'm telling you this as a parent of two kids, the uncle of 5 kids and the godfather to two kids. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 2:18:29 PM | OP, reread your post. Your sons know right from wrong but that's the thing. We CAN do everything right, give them all the tools they need, protect them while letting them spread their wings, but they make their own choices. At 20 and 23, they will likely make more stupid choices before they start making better ones.
Your job now is to do exactly what you did. You talked to your son, gave advice, now he needs to find his gonads and own up to what he did with his brother. If/when his brother tells you about it you do the same thing, it was horrible, he is your brother, I hope you find it in yourself to forgive him and recognize that he is very young and while no excuse, he allowed himself to be manipulated when there was probably a little voice telling him to run the other way.
Then you step back again and let them duke it out. Once they are adults, our kids are pretty much like anyone else, you can give advice, can't force them to take it. If I were in your shoes I would advise both to think more clearly in the future and stay away from a woman who would sleep with brothers intentionally to cause a rift between them. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 2:38:37 PM | Thank you wonderful people .Youve been helpful.I was a mess earlier.worrying about all this .My younger son is planning to speak to his older brother when he returns from this extra job hes on.He wants to do it face to face,come clean and beg for forgiveness.Hes called the girlfriend asked her to move on apologised to her for his part in this .Let her know under no circumstances does he want anything to do with her.Changed his cell phone number.The girl is very angry.Called me a nosey a$$ good for nothing. lol She wants my older sons number , we refuse to give it to her.
As I stated before I take pride in the fact my sons are very close so I believe all will be forgiven soon.
As for the one who thinks this is fake and no none like this exhist and Im trolling. well hun ya read about this every day in the forums . There are nut cases like me every where. And yes I thank God youve been blessed with a perfect family. However most normal people make mistakes some not as bad as ours .If your family is doing that well then keep up with your exceptional parrenting skills . write a book and share it with others or feel free to e-mail me .Id welcome your skills. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 2:46:43 PM | ^^^ OP: You've maintained such a high level of composure throughout this thread you have demonstrated your concern and love for your sons..
Best of luck. 
................................. ............................. ........................... ............................... | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 3:12:59 PM |
The father chose to run away from responsibility.He left when they were around 7.I admit my fault in this.I know I aparntly went wrong in some of the up bringing.
However my kids know right from wrong wether they chose to do right or not I cant help it .
No they didn't. MY kids know the difference between right and wrong. Neither of my sons would consider behaving in this way from choosing a woman to marry, date or sleep with nor would they ever EVER betray their brother by sleeping with his woman.
Thanks to some for the****ness and blaming me again I accept my responsibility in this .no need for harshness.
It isn't bizzitchyness to point out with honesty that you are to blame for this. You haven't accepted your responsibility. You're bemoaning that this has happened. Blaming a mentally ill girl for first being a skank and then for the fact that both your sons fekked her, and you're blaming their father who "chose" to leave all of you.
I saw nothing said about what you may have done wrong.
Im trying to learn to back out and let them be but as a mother I want to protect them as much as I can. I took pride in the fact they used to be so close .
First allow me to say that my earlier post, dear OP, was a genuine hope that this was yet another one of those infamous "urban myths" we are frequently told of on POF.
If it smacked of sarcasm, well, yes that's my random way of "coping" with things I find too ludicrous to consider as valid and real.
I'll apologize for my sarcasm. It's a personality trait that attracts some and repels others. Either way it's who I am and how I am.
The thing is that also inherent in who I am and how I am is first and foremost I'm a damn good mother.
We all have little violins and can sing a maudlin tune. I could bring you to tears with the things I and my "practically perfect" sons have faced together and survived but you know, none of it boils down to the level of the depravity you posted here about your sons and the woman they both chose to sleep with.
I do not know how any one can see everything you've posted on this forum and not be aghast at the level of wrongness within it.
And additionally? I'm sorry cuz this is going to feel like blame and rightfully so...you are the reason for it.
Children learn what they are TAUGHT.
You raised these boys alone since they were 7 isn't that what you've written here?
No father around.
You taught them.
You taught THEM.
Get it?
No different than me teaching mine.
Or Package teaching hers.
We're single mothers raising children alone without fathers. It's what we do. And for some of us it's the largest responsibility God challenges us to handle. The gifts He gave us.
If you couldn't handle raising them when they were boys, it's time for you to stop trying to handle them when they're men.
It's a sorry and sick piece of life you've got here.
For three children.
The two sons and the woman they slept with.
My guess is all are victims of divorce and not great conditions growing up. And that's your responsibility as well.
I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but I"m really sick and tired of women online at places like this and others, hopping from one bed to the next, whoring themselves just so they're not alone, while their kids grow up crooked and missing some fundamentals.
Then the next thing you know we have the little girls who's Daddy left, and they dress like sluts, they cut themselves with blades to get the attention they're lacking and they hook up with one guy, then screw with his head by shagging his brother and leaving him marked.
If you can seriously read all that you've written here from an uninvolved and unbiased aspect and NOT be feeling respulsed then I'll tattoo an apology on my forehead for my bizzitchyness and my harsh view point of your sons and how you chose to teach them the meaning of family, being brothers, and the difference between right and wrong.
Because unlike you - I don't think they got the message right. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 3:47:39 PM | ^^^^ GoneSailin... who p1ssed in your bowl of cereal this morning?
Seriously... normally what you post is reasonable and balanced. But in this case, you've completely flown off the handle.
I feel it's my duty to point out a few things about your last post:
No they didn't. MY kids know the difference between right and wrong. Neither of my sons would consider behaving in this way from choosing a woman to marry, date or sleep with nor would they ever EVER betray their brother by sleeping with his woman.
And you actually tested this in the real world and put your kids in that situation, right?
No... the truth is that you *believe* they wouldn't ever act this way. No parent would want to believe this of their kids. I know I don't.
And judging by your tone, I bet if any of your kids actually did something like that, they'd be too scared to tell you.
But this lady found out her younger son screwed up. It's done. The only thing for her to do is oversee that he corrects his mistake to the best of his ability.
It isn't bizzitchyness to point out with honesty that you are to blame for this. You haven't accepted your responsibility. You're bemoaning that this has happened. Blaming a mentally ill girl for first being a skank and then for the fact that both your sons fekked her, and you're blaming their father who "chose" to leave all of you.
The way you are pointing it out *is* b1tchy in my view. And OP is not to blame... her son is to blame. He is an adult. He has made a mistake. As his mother, she is guiding him now and helping him to not make a bad situation worse.
Sh1t happens... or are you saying your kids are perfect? Where's that 'puke' smiley... ah... here it is
And I've got news for you... some *people* are skanky as a symptom of mental illness. I've seen it first hand with some who are Manic-depressive. When it a manic phase, they are loaded bundles of energy who will do anything and everything. Then when the depressive state hits, the neediness and lethargy is overwhelming.
And that's just one example I've observed first hand.
And whether the father left when doesn't even enter into it beyond the fact that OP isn't getting help from the father. It's pointless to go on about the past as you are... it's what needs to be done now and it the future that matters.
Children learn what they are TAUGHT.
You raised these boys alone since they were 7 isn't that what you've written here?
No father around.
You taught them.
Blah blah blah... as if SHE was her son's ONLY source of learning.
Get real.
And the rest of your post after "You taught them" is the worst pile of sanctimonious tripe I've read in a long time.
The largest responsibility that "god" gives you? Oh pullleeeassse....
Sh1t happens and people deal with it. God doesn't enter into it for this situation. If I'm wrong, may The Lord strike me down Right Now.
Oh look at that, I'm still here...
You need to take a chill pill... Seriously. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 4:47:57 PM |
~rain~: I want to appologize to the O.P. for my last post. It was very harsh and being a mom I should have been more sensitive.
I know that we all have this need to protect our children and stand by them. Sometimes we dont realize that we are doing more harm then good till it is to late.
...
I hope everything works out for you! and again..I am sorry for my rant.
My vote for best post in this thread, and probably any other thread today. Imagine saying something harshly to someone, online or in the real world, and then going back to the person and saying "I'm sorry, I was out of line, I wish you the best." This is what doing the right thing is all about, in any kind of relationship. Thank you for the reminder, ~rain~. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 4:55:52 PM | I'm standing by what I wrote and I'm sorry if it appears to others online unbalanced or squed.
And you actually tested this in the real world and put your kids in that situation, right?
No... the truth is that you *believe* they wouldn't ever act this way. No
I'm CERTAIN my sons would never do this, because I raised them. Alone. Without their father, and with the help of God.
I raised excellent men.
Sorry if that sounds smug and arrogant. It isn't. It's simply the truth. I raised men that have strong morals, exemplary behavior and are good, decent men.
Parenting isn't the largest responsibility that God entrusts us with?
There is some responsibility in life that means more and matters more than raising children properly and well?
Shit, such as the OP's situation simply happens randomly and no one is responsible for it?
Bull. In my opinion it's bull. Doesn't mean I am right or I am wrong. It means only in my opinion these things do not simply happen. They don't. Otherwise the entire world would be in chaos with crappy kids. And it's not.
Some people actually do a good job of raising grown people who are good and wouldn't consider doing henious acts of immoral nature. Color me sanctimonious, but I know where my kids are, and what they're doing.
I posted my opinion. Just because that opinion wasn't sickeningly sweet, fluffy, or enabling doesn't mean it was wrong or unfair. It simply means it's a different sort of opinion from others. I don't believe sitting quietly along side the pity road
and watching everyone jump on the bus to comfort the Mother, who's somewhat responsible for the condition of the vehicle she's driving, accomplishes anything positive. I commented on the post and the topic as they were presented and nothing else - with the exception of my own opinion on topic.
The woman created the son's. She raised them by her accounting alone and without anyone else's aid. She taught them the difference between right and wrong, but when they didn't do it, or didn't follow through or fell prey innocently to this wretched young woman...she presented that topic for response on the internet.
Were those responses all supposed to supportive of the situation?
Commiserative of her hardship?
Enabling of the choices made by those involved?
Are we obliged to post in support of the individual only and not post a response that represents our own individuality and opinion?
It's very sad that the OP and her sons are experiencing this. I feel it could have been prevented rather than all of them being forced to deal with it now and survive it. That's only my opinion of the topic.
I'm not certain how my opinion of the poster's topic became your topic but I think that's off topic and quite possibly chatting...so I'd prefer to remain on the OP's topic.
OP- I hope that if you're not able to assist your sons in coping with this dilemna that you help to find them a professional counselor who can assist them, because I think it's unlikely that two brothers and young men can experience something like this and remain loving and caring individuals. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 5:11:01 PM | Allison, I would be less concerned about your younger son, who was momentarily enticed, and more concerned about the older one, who likely is codependent as Bicoastal suggests. That means he gets too much of his own sense of self worth from helping others, even when it is to his own detriment, because he otherwise has low self-esteem. That is the only reason he has tolerated the GF's abuse for four years. Consequently, there is considerable risk that he will forgive her of her latest outrage (with his own brother) and resume his well-intentioned goal of "saving her" from herself. Moreover, even if he leaves her, he likely will be attracted to similar women.
I therefore suggest that you provide him with information explaining why the woman acts that way and why it is impossible for him to fix or change her. Of course, he won't believe you. And he won't read about it unless you approach him at a low point. But, believe me, with such relationships there will be many low points for him, when he will be confused, sad, and perhaps receptive to information.
What he must learn is that his GF has a serious mental disorder that he cannot fix and that she herself likely will never escape from. Given your description, she likely suffers from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). She exhibts such bad behavior not because she is evil but, rather, because the illness distorts her perceptions. He cannot change that. Moreover, because it is a thought disorder, it cannot be managed with any drug.
The good news is that, within an hour or two of reading, he could get a fairly clear understanding of the crazy, perplexing behavior you have observed. The best place to start, I believe, is a short article at bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm. It is the best concise description of what a toxic relationship is like with a person who has high functioning BPD. Other good websites are BPDCentral.com and BPD411.org. In a culture that repeatedly tells him that "love heals all," your son must realize that this is completely untrue with BPD sufferers. Indeed, loving her will increase her pain as he draws very close. It is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her.
BPD is usually caused by molestation or other extreme trauma experienced in early childhood. This causes the victim (usually young girls) to hold onto to their childhood defense mechanisms (e.g., splitting and mirroring) so strongly that they have become emotionally stunted -- unable to adopt the more mature emotional defenses that the rest of us move on to. Hence, they suffer as children and end up suffering 24/7 the rest of their lives, being unable to sustain close personal relationships. As badly as she treats your son, the GF is much harder on herself. The anger she turns inward is so fierce that she cuts herself -- not to add pain -- but, rather, to get relief from the already unbearable internal pain. It is important, then, that you and your son not add to her suffering. After all, you two can walk away from it. She cannot. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 5:53:27 PM |
And whether the father left when doesn't even enter into it beyond the fact that OP isn't getting help from the father. It's pointless to go on about the past as you are... it's what needs to be done now and it's the future that matters. What he said..
GSB .. are you suffering through menopause? (not meant as a joke) There are ways to get your point across with determination and conviction without molly coddling. (your usual MO)
In this thread your post is riddled with conjecture and assumption and blatant meaness.. (not usually your MO.) (??????)
Not everyone is blessed with having family Easter egg hunts and glorious family meals delayed while the grandparents lovingly got-it-on well into their senior years.
I was a tad brutal in my first post but I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt ~ that this is just a bad one-off situation that she is trying to remedy and has come to the fora for some advice. This isn't the first "Cain and Abel" type thread we've read and their Parents were Adam and Eve. .. sh*t happens! | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 8:34:52 PM | GoneSailinBabe,
I think Marijuana may help you with the state you're in...
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 9:08:09 PM | OP I've said it before, we don't stop worrying about our children until we are in our grave... no matter what their age.... and I've gotten myself knee deep in my kids butts if they were in trouble... it's just who I am.. a Pit Bull..
I am glad to hear that you had this convo with your younger son.... hopefully whatever rivalry he has with his older brother will be a valuable lesson learned... there are certain lines you don't cross... the trouble with todays young adults or some of them is that they are not mature... and I speak about the girl who is the instigator... I realize she has become a bane to your existance but she too needs help... not your worry mind you but man... I could sit and psychoanalyze her for hours... I had to rivet myself away from her situation... lol.. not really that funny either...
You might need to set down some tough love laws to maintain your sanity though... because you might not be able to control them... but you sure can kick them out of the house... I've done it and it's helped .... they came back but reasonable... | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 9:59:25 PM | ~OP~ Having a 23 year old son, who chooses to be with a woman that I think is well beneath his level of intelligence, his level of motivation, his sense of accomplishment as well as a few other things that I simply shouldn't post in a public forum (or speak out loud for that matter) combined with her past and my perception that she has the morals of a ghetto hooker, doesn't mean I have any right to tell him he shouldn't be with her. How do I know this? Because I did tell him that at one point and guess what? He not only stood up for her, he told me I owed her an apology. And he was right. It's his life. If we raised them so well, don't we owe them the courtesy of trusting them to make their own mistakes and to figure out how to cope/fix those mistakes? I did apologize ~ she didn't accept. Guess what that means? He now views it a tad differently. These things are short-lived when viewing the big picture. Just butt-out. Haven't you figured out yet that you don't interfere when your sons are having sex with someone???? Common sense and motherly love can't compete with hormones. Just let it run it's course and it'll all be over and there will be a new crisis for you to be overly involved in. I'm a quick study, I don't butt-in anymore. I'm there to listen when it falls apart, but it's no longer an option for me to render my opinion. You might try it ~ it feels pretty good to only deal with your very own drama/trauma/hate and discontent. JMO  | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/20/2009 10:26:21 PM | | well if she's a mental case, then why does your older son love her so much? that says something about him doesn't it? a normal person wouldn't get involved with a mental case. what did he see in her anyway? a single mother with too many issues and baggage. yeah she sounds like a real prize. i know for a fact there are better women then her out there. | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/21/2009 11:42:06 AM | Opinions were requested, I voiced mine.
If you disagree, so be it. But don't lower yourself into the insult pool, by attacking my menstraul flow or the life of my grandparents, if our opinions differ.
Obviously we don't share the same morals or values.
Big deal.
Next! | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/21/2009 1:20:07 PM | I was doing neither .. as you know.
I thought your other thread was a good one and I stuck up for you when someone attacked you personally in it as well.
Obviously we don't share the same sense of empathy for others.. but once again.. you assume in a distasteful manner about my morals and values which you know nothing about.
I've been through menopause.. I see symptoms in you that I went through.. I asked a question.. show me where I attacked you about it. Its' your choice to answer it or not.
Have a pleasant day! | |
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| sibling rivery
Posted: 5/21/2009 2:52:45 PM | | my older son chose a job farther away to allow her to be the one to exit once again and go back to her other boyfriend same as before .see she tires of him when he doesnt respond violently to her fits .So hes exited himself this time.He does love her but he knows its hopless. Hince 4 years of this yo yoing mess. We dont want to hurt her farther .This time when she leaves hes locking the door.Its just when my older son working so far away , she got board and tried the younger .She was angry any way because this job was out of town.She couldnt watch his every move and get her "fit fix".(Sorry but its a way of discribing it) | |
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