| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/24/2009 5:54:52 PM | Me, and the majority of humanity, consider torture to be one of the most heinous crimes.
There is a gray area with who opposes torture and who doesn't depending upon the circumstances. The majority of countries polled do oppose torture under normal circumstance, but many of those same countries that oppose torture under normal circumstances do condone torture for terrorist however in rare circumstances.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320/ | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/24/2009 11:16:51 PM |
LOL, are you freaking serious? Please tell me that was a joke. We are talking about using it in regards to punishing harden criminals that have resisted all other forms of punishment.
how exactly does one resist all other forms of punishment? You can resist jail time all you want but it wont prevent you from getting it.
There's nothing wrong with learning from experience in many cases, but it's not the best way to learn things like math, and other matters with a strong conceptual foundation
ok......so how DO you learn math then? reading? doing math problems? someone showing you? those are experiences are they not?
He, and anyone that shares that opinion, lacks the courage or the honesty to do the research, and learn the facts regarding waterboarding, which clearly show that it is torture.
what better research could he possibly have done than actually doing it himself?
And if you're going to defend or condone torture, then no, I'm not going to find anything in common you. Me, and the majority of humanity, consider torture to be one of the most heinous crimes
she has not done either of these things....perhaps it is you who is illiterate | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/24/2009 11:27:56 PM | Personally I respect anyone who walks the talk and then when they are proven wrong, they admit to it. Wish more people would do this. Talk is cheap. Not to mention as a military family, I wonder if anyone ever wonders what effect does torture have on the people doing the torture?
Back in the 90's I read a book by an man who had worked on death row in the south, where he noted the alcohol problems and mental health issues the men who had to do the executions suffered from. Its easy to say we support these things, since we as citizens aren't the one doing the job daily.
~Beth~ | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/25/2009 6:18:33 AM |
There is a gray area with who opposes torture and who doesn't depending upon the circumstances. The majority of countries polled do oppose torture under normal circumstance, but many of those same countries that oppose torture under normal circumstances do condone torture for terrorist however in rare circumstances.
Nope, there is no gray area, except in the empty space that fills the mind of a rightwinger.
The polls you mention do not exist. You made it up. Countries aren't polled. Countries don't speak. I think you are referring to studies of the laws of nations. Since most of those nations are non-democratic, their laws are not representative of the people's opinions.
Furthermore, your claim about them supporting torture under unusual circumstances is something you made up. No such poll has ever been done worldwide.
You are even being dishonest about the poll you linked to. It polled in 9 countries, five of which say torture is never justified. Only four say it's sometimes justified. I said that most of humanity agrees with me. Your poll indicates that I'm right, and you are wrong. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/25/2009 6:22:15 AM |
Ok and did you also forget people that are locked up still commit violent acts while they are in there?
Did you forget that the terrorists held in SuperMaxx prisons don't have any contact with other prisoners? They are kept in their own cell 23 hours a day. The other hour is spent in a "yard", which is a small area (approx 50 sq ft) , alone.
I'd suggest that there are better ways to learn about jails than watching prison shows on the boob tube. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/25/2009 3:10:17 PM |
how exactly does one resist all other forms of punishment? You can resist jail time all you want but it wont prevent you from getting it.
Ok and did you also forget people that are locked up still commit violent acts while they are in there? Ok then you're not talking about "punishment" you're talking about behavior management. Torture is ok for behavior management when all else fails. That seems to be your stance. Brilliant. Nothing like taking the easy way out. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/25/2009 3:48:52 PM | Keep plugging your right wing hate mongering ears.
Oh yes I just made those polls up.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/btjusticehuman_rightsra/261.php
I made them up that some countries that are totally against torture do condone it under rare circumstances when it comes to terrorist?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320/
Where was I being dishonest? I never proclaimed all the countries that were polled condone torture under rare circumstance. I clearly stated that are countries that do oppose it, do condone it under rare circumstances.
Did you forget that the terrorists held in Super Maxx prisons don't have any contact with other prisoners?
Oh is that so huh?
Inmate Beaten to Death at Supermax
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/04/23/610/83628
What I find even more hilarious is your hypocritical statements. You are totally against any form of torture even mental torture, but yet locking someone up in a very confined space like they do in Super Max for up to 23 hours a day is cool with you……
LOL, you are such a hypocrite. You will sit there and talk crap to people about watching TV, but the vast majority of your right wing hate mongering information comes from the same sources that everyone else gets their information from TV, Internet, and news paper.
Ok then you're not talking about "punishment" you're talking about behavior management. Torture is ok for behavior management when all else fails. That seems to be your stance. Brilliant. Nothing like taking the easy way out.
LOL, how is that taking the easy way out then if I condone it has a disciplinary correction when all other forms of disciplinary corrections have failed? | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 1:15:56 AM | Some of may find this crazy. But I want to be waterboarded. I would like to find out for myself what it feels like and I'd like to find out if I could hold out against multiple waterboardings.
I've been held underwater for 45 - 60 seconds by a violent ocean while surfing 20 foot waves many times. The problem arises if you start to panic, that's when you're done.
In a controlled environment when you can signal when you want it stopped, I'd say go for it. Maybe you can film it for one of those whatchamacallit movies, you know where they snort pure wasabi paste and such ? | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 1:33:01 AM |
I've been held underwater for 45 - 60 seconds by a violent ocean while surfing 20 foot waves many times.
This is not at ALL like waterboarding. If it was it wouldn't be an effective torture method. This isn't the simple "hold your head under the water" thing you see in movies. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 1:52:06 AM | I already know what I'd feel like.
You haven't been waterboared. You don't know what it feels like. I don't know what it feels like. Nobody who has not undergone it knows what it's like.
And being held under in 20 foot surf is unlike any movie theater you've been in.
True! But this hardly has anything to do with what we're talking about. I wasn't talking about being in a theater. Try re-reading what I said.
There you go with your fallacies again.
It's always cute when somebody uses a word in a way that shows they don't understand the meaning.
So let me say this again. Waterboarding is not simply like being trapped under water. it involves a physiological reaction which goes beyond simply holding your breath under pressure. Nobody who has not undergone the procedure knows what the experience is, the difference is one of us (namely you) is pretending otherwise. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 6:48:46 AM |
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/btjusticehuman_rightsra/261.php
This report contradicts the poll you posted earlier, so I don't know why you would believe both, unless the reason is that you'll believe anything so long as it supports your argument.
In addition, this poll is not "world wide". It polled in 25 nations. There are considerably more nations than 25
Where was I being dishonest? I never proclaimed all the countries that were polled condone torture under rare circumstance. I clearly stated that are countries that do oppose it, do condone it under rare circumstances.
I said that a majority of people oppose torture. You disagreed, and posted poll to support your position that most people do not oppose torture. The problem was, the poll did not support your argument, as you claimed. It supported mine. According to that poll, the majority of nations (5 out of 9) opposed torture, but you falsely claimed the poll showed a majority supporting torture (under special circumstances)
Oh is that so huh?
Inmate Beaten to Death at Supermax
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/04/23/610/83628
OK, I was wrong. There's been ONE death. Thanks for posting that as it led to learn that Supermax prisoners are not all isolated from other prisoners. Instead, the prisoners at supermax prison are grouped into categories, some of which all the prisoner to interact with the "general population".
I truly doubt the terrrorists will be assigned to one of the lower-risk groups which allow them access to the general population, if only for their own safety. Since none of the isolated prisoners has ever committed violence against another prisoner, I would argue that the terrorists would not pose a threat to the other prisoners
What I find even more hilarious is your hypocritical statements. You are totally against any form of torture even mental torture, but yet locking someone up in a very confined space like they do in Super Max for up to 23 hours a day is cool with you……
I dont believe that Supermax's are cruel and unusual punishment. I don't see any contradiction. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 10:30:54 AM | "Telling the truth after being tortured is the point of torture. Telling the truth under torture is not bravery; It's the natural and planned response to torture."
Sounds like it might just work then, doesn't it?
No. NBL was very mistaken in claiming that torture ellicits the truth from its victims. Waterboarding traces its origins to the Spanish Inquisition. That was not about effectively getting the truth; it was about forced religious conversions and forced statements of loyalty.
Hmmm... I wonder why Hannity isn't discussing this little Mancow episode... I wonder... | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 11:04:22 AM | No. NBL was very mistaken in claiming that torture ellicits the truth from its victims. Waterboarding traces its origins to the Spanish Inquisition. That was not about effectively getting the truth; it was about forced religious conversions and forced statements of loyalty.
I knew that and that was the very reason I made the statement. It was meant to make him (and I thought it was Charles who made the statement not NBL) take another look at his statement as it might have been contradicting the side of the position he stood on.
Although it doesn't always work, it has been proven effective on an occasion or two, and it's (waterboarding) only been used on a couple known terrorists, not every POW captured, and it's done to enemy that if the shoe was on the other foot, beheading might be the result, so I really have no problem with it in dire circumstances. But to the extent that it was done in Abu Ghrabi, I have a problem with it. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 11:23:56 AM |
Although it doesn't always work, it has been proven effective on an occasion or two...
No, it hasn't been proven. It has been claimed to be effective by people who have a vested interest in torture being perceived as somewhat effective. Furthermore, you believing this claim contradicts your statement of "I knew that" in your previous paragraph. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 2:17:36 PM |
Furthermore, you believing this claim contradicts your statement of "I knew that" in your previous paragraph.
No, it didn't. I get so tired of this crap. He made a statement, that if taken at face value went against all of HIS previous statements. By saying what I said in repsonse--that his statement would mean that torture was effective--I basically called him out to clarify. My beliefs never entered into the equation.
In my response to you, I conveyed that was my point of making the above statement (him seemingly contradicting his position--if that statement were true then he was making a case for his opposition). THEN, and I repeat, only then did I express my position, which is as it stands in said second paragraph. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 2:17:50 PM | So NBL now that I have proved you wrong about how their was a world wide poll conducted, after you accused me of making it up you then say well that was only 25 countries being polled? Well no kidding what do you expect them to do go around polling every single country on the planet? The poll that was being conducted was survived by the top 25 nations in the world.
This wasn't the only death that has ever accrued in a Supermax prison. Granted they are safer then your typical prisons but they aren't full proof by any means and the article I provided about another prisoner getting beating to death shows that.
The biggest reason why no terrorist have committed other violent acts towards other terrorist in Gitmo is, because they all belong to the same group. Put them in any other Supermax prison in the U.S. where you have a mixture of diff types of groups and that will change. Most murders that happen in prison are the result of rival gangs committing violent acts against one another.
Really you don't see how it can be cruel. So you don't agree with this then?
http://www.alternet.org/rights/80440/ | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 3:44:25 PM |
No, it didn't. I get so tired of this crap. He made a statement, that if taken at face value went against all of HIS previous statements. By saying what I said in repsonse--that his statement would mean that torture was effective--I basically called him out to clarify. My beliefs never entered into the equation.
Ready I really do want to help you here. Maybe you should take a look at your posting style. You often claim that people misunderstand you or take things out of context. Often when proven wrong in an argument you will claim that is “not actually what you meant” or “I was being sarcastic” (even when if you were in fact being sarcastic it would not make sense.) You DO contradict yourself quite often, maybe you don’t realize it.
sorry for going off topic | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 4:41:49 PM | This report contradicts the poll you posted earlier, so I don't know why you would believe both, unless the reason is that you'll believe anything so long as it supports your argument.
It wasn't a contradiction of the previous poll there is two factors that are at play here, which I have been trying to explain to you. The countries in the msnbc article that do oppose the use of torture, do condone it under rare circumstances*. Unlike the second article that polled the 25 nations that weren't in the first article, opposed the use of torture under any condition. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 4:59:50 PM | NBL
why do you consider this man to be a coward? you didn't do the "research" before you made up your mind either, and (cough) now he did do the "research" and he changed his mind. so what?
i think you need to come up to present time and realize that bush is no longer president. your guy won! so why are you still soooooo mad...
btw... mancow describes himself as a libertarian, and he is a registered independent.
lar | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 8:08:16 PM |
Telling the truth after being tortured is the point of torture. Telling the truth under torture is not bravery; It's the natural and planned response to torture. Sounds like it might just work then, doesn't it?
There's little I like more than explaining the obvious to the oblivious.
Read what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that torture works. Nowhere did I say that people who are tortured will tell the truth.
What I said is that torture is meant to get people to talk. Getting people to talk is the point of torturing people.
If someone has nothing to hide, then they will not lie when being tortured. Mancow, unlike the terrorists, had nothing to hide. He did not know anything about some mythical ticking time bomb. So when he talked, which is the point of torture, he told the truth because he had nothing to lie about. They wanted him to admit it was torture, and that's what he did.
Mancow's reaction to the torture was natural and it was planned. I'm certain that whoever performed the procedure knew that it wouldn't be long until Mancow said whatever he wanted Mancow to say.
So if you think that means "torture works" then it means that it only works on people who have nothing to hide. I can't fathom the amount of cluelessness required to think the effects of torture on innocent idiots are the same as the effects of torture on terrorists. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/26/2009 8:15:10 PM |
It wasn't a contradiction of the previous poll there is two factors that are at play here, which I have been trying to explain to you. The countries in the msnbc article that do oppose the use of torture, do condone it under rare circumstances*. Unlike the second article that polled the 25 nations that weren't in the first article, opposed the use of torture under any condition.
And once again, you are not being honest about the article you linked to. Here's what it says
Most Americans and a majority of people in Britain, France and South Korea say torturing terrorism suspects is justified at least in rare instances, according to AP-Ipsos polling.
The United States has drawn criticism from human rights groups and many governments, especially in Europe, for its treatment of terror suspects. President Bush and other top officials have said the U.S. does not torture, but some suspects in American custody have alleged they were victims of severe mistreatment.
The polling, in the United States and eight of its closest allies,
They polled 9 nations. Only four (US, Britain, France, S Korea) say it's justified in rare instance. Five think it's wrong all the time.
The countries in the msnbc article that do oppose the use of torture, do condone it under rare circumstances
Be honest. Five of those nine nations oppose the use of torture in ALL circumstances. | |
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