| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/26/2009 8:27:00 PM |
Mancow, unlike the terrorists, had nothing to hide. To the contrary-- Mancow had plenty to hide: his ignorance about the severity of waterboarding, his fear, his machismo being exposed as fraudulent, his opinions on fighting terror being exposed as flawed, etc.
Nothing stopped him from lying about it afterwards. He could have said, "Definitely uncomfortable, but it doesn't qualify as torture." Instead, he said, "I don't want to say this-- definitely torture." He admitted the truth, even when it pained him.
He swallowed his pride when he didn't really have to. He didn't even have to be waterboarded in the first place. Nothing cowardly about that. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/26/2009 9:53:35 PM | And once again you don't get it. The countries that don’t generally condone torture will do it under rare circumstances.
Yes and look at France and Britain where it's heavily unpopular amongst the people to torture in the second link provided under general conditions.
Be honest? Um where is your facts that 5 out of those 9 nations use it under all conditions?
You know what’s funny? You have reversed directions in regards to what you initially said about people’s views on torture without even realizing it. You went from “the majority of us condone torture” to “It polled in 25 nations. There are considerably more nations than 25" in regards to opposing it. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/26/2009 11:20:53 PM | | This is a great thread. I saw the video and read all the post on how Mancow was skeptical about it being torture and then afterwards his views all changed. Clearly if you still think that this is not an effective way to extract information from terrorist you miss one of the last things he said before he went off to get checked out by the medics. I paraphrase of course, but what he said was he couldn't call it torture until he experienced it, and he wouldn't do it again. Isn't that the key. He was never really in fear he trusted the people who were doing this to him but the fear that the feeling of not being able to take that breath was enough that he would not willingly put himself back on the table and subject himself to that trama or torture. If the fear is that great then it is effective enhanced interogation aka torture. I think its brilliant. The guy lives through it and you play on his worst fear of not being able to breathe. sounds like a great alternative to cutting off fingers and electical shock.. bamboo under the fingernails, flushing Korans shooting out knee caps making them face east when they use the potty, and even the old dependable threat of beheading... Win win situation... I vote for WATERBOARDing if Mancow can do it hardened Terrorist would be less then men to refuse to give it a whirl. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/26/2009 11:23:38 PM |
Clearly if you still think that this is not an effective way to extract information from terrorist you miss one of the last things he said before he went off to get checked out by the medics.
The problem once again with torture is not getting a person to talk, it's the problem that you will get false information, because all it does is make people admit to ANYTHING. If a person waterboarded you they'd get you to say you were a terrorist, and if they kept waterboarding you, they'd get you to tell them the target of the next attack.
Seriously people do you study a subject at ALL before you talk? Do you really think when they were waterboarding witches during the spanish inquisition and the people were confessing to essentially blowing the devil for magical favours that these were honest confessions?
Do you tired? | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/26/2009 11:43:25 PM | | Exactly admitting to anything and everything.. So do it enough times and I bet the info gets pretty accurate but if your a good interogator/torturer specialist you will know when the truth comes out. Then amazingly, they weigh this extracted info from other info from maybe more credible sources and the puzzle pieces start falling into place.. This all seems like new techniques that only the monster we affectionately call Cheney could possible dream up but I been thinking the intelligence community has been working and perfecting all these little puzzle peices for years and years, and there is a huge chance that they don't just rely solely on the "Waterboarding" technique although I still think its brilliant. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/26/2009 11:52:11 PM |
So do it enough times and I bet the info gets pretty accurate but if your a good interogator/torturer specialist you will know when the truth comes out. OR more likely they will be punished for crimes that were not committed....and tell lies about possible terrorist actions. If we are really looking for the truth then this is not effective
If America wants to maintain the idea that they are a country that does not believe in torture than that has to be consistent, not picking and choosing when it is ok. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/26/2009 11:58:02 PM | Exactly admitting to anything and everything..
So you think that the Spanish inquisition succesfully hunted down witches with waterboarding? Because they confessed to things?
The really stupid thing is that what makes the torture stop is a statement about ANYTHING. That the intelligence community has to then confirm. You're underestimating the amount of resentment and hatred that these procedures cause on a personal level between the subject and the person who tortures. It actually makes the person want to lie more.
Which you know is actually what the research says. Not the Republican talking points.
This all seems like new techniques that only the monster we affectionately call Cheney could possible dream up but I been thinking the intelligence community has been working and perfecting all these little puzzle peices for years and years, and there is a huge chance that they don't just rely solely on the "Waterboarding" technique although I still think its brilliant.
Unfortunately nobody but Cheney seems to think that torture is actually effective.
For instance....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/26/petraeus-endorses-obamas_n_207513.html
General David Petraeus said this past weekend that President Obama's decision to close down Gitmo and end harsh interrogation techniques would benefit the United States in the broader war on terror.
I think, on balance, that those moves help [us]," said the chief of U.S. Central Command. "In fact, I have long been on record as having testified and also in helping write doctrine for interrogation techniques that are completely in line with the Geneva Convention. And as a division commander in Iraq in the early days, we put out guidance very early on to make sure that our soldiers, in fact, knew that we needed to stay within those guidelines.
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 12:17:38 AM | My dear Wormwood,
Job well done on bringing a well-intentioned soul closer to our fold. Once we can get people to approve of torture for "the right reasons" (some even with unrestrained glee-- how glorious) it is a much easier task to fully wrest them from the arms of the Enemy.
Imagine for a moment just how easily they would deny the Enemy if subjected to the very torture they condone. The irony! It is merely fantasy, though. I really doubt that an approach that clumsy would help our cause; the Enemy and his damn near boundless mercy and understanding-- it makes me sick just thinking about it! No, just stick with the current proven techniques. Under my tutelage, our success is all but gauranteed.
Sincerely,
Your Uncle Screwtape
Credit: the late CS Lewis | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 2:17:12 AM | Exactly admitting to anything and everything.. So do it enough times and I bet the info gets pretty accurate but if your a good interogator/torturer specialist you will know when the truth comes out.
Interrogation torture doesn't really work. Let me give you an example Say (and I’m just using this for reference purposes) that CharlesEdm was one of the main henchmen working for some big criminal org and we captured him. Now, you and I are the interrogators and we needed information on his criminal org, but he refused to talk to us about it in the interrogation room. So we then precede to the next step by waterboarding him to get the information out of him which now seems to be working, but one problem. We have no idea if he is telling us the real truth. I mean, yeah the information that he is providing us now may sound good but we still have no idea if he is telling us the truth or telling us what we just want to hear so that he can get out of being waterboarded. That is the big problem with Interrogation torture. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 5:50:35 AM | Interogations work, I suppose you people have never watched one of those cop shows. When people are unsure of what is happening to them and fear getting the whole brunt of the punishment they crack like easter eggs. Your not in intelligence field probably haven't any training what so ever on the effects of interogation techniques .. The human spirit is strong but everyone has there cracking point. Being able to find it and exploit it is something you learn, Its more Psychological then physical. Even though Mancow was never in any danger of drowning cause thats why they were doing it his mind still feared he might drown and the fear is what makes people willing to give up the truth.
The last thing is. You talk about how these people are going to admit to something they didn't do just to get you to stop. Well could be that they would, In the situation where waterboarding was used the people who were waterboarded were already known terrorists. They didn't have to admit to anything they didn't do. I believe it was Kalid Sheik Muhammad (waterboarded) that boasted before capture that he was the one who was responsible fore cutting off Daniel Pearls head. He probably had all kinds of other goodies to give up .... Reguardless of what he admitted to or didn't under interogation you already know the kind of man he is. Why defend someone who never gave a rats hiney about a innocent man, He didn't just drop water on his face he viciously sawed his head of probably while he screamed and tried to get away. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 7:17:30 AM | Notice now that it's being acknowledged that it doesn't work all that well according to the experts, we're now moving to cop shows, and justifications based on it being done to "bad people."
I don't care about who or who it wasn't done to. I care that by indulging in that kind of behavior it reduces us as people.
I mean look, we've got Americans attempting to justify something that they executed others for doing a few decades ago. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 7:30:33 AM |
Interogations work, I suppose you people have never watched one of those cop shows.
I find it difficult to fathom that anyone would justify the use of torture based on what they watched on a teevee show. But unfortunately I have even heard politicians wonder out loud. "WWJD" (What would Jack do?) Thank god the grownups are in charge now. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 9:12:33 AM | Amusingly the more "Christian" you are the more likely you are to advocate this kind of things.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/22/torture.christian/index.html
A survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that white evangelical Christians are more likely to support torture than people who rarely or never attend religious services.
The survey said that 62 percent of white evangelical Protestants say that the use of torture against suspected terrorists can be often or sometimes justified in order to gain important information.
When asked the same question, 40 percent of the "religiously unaffiliated" say torture can be often or sometimes justified. The survey, however, did not define torture or say whether "enhanced interrogation techniques" like waterboarding are torture.
Apparently when asked what would Jesus do? The answer is "Be afraid, and hurt people to make me feel better."
The sick thing? Apparently evangelicals would torture 62% of the time... regardless if the torture is waterboarding or if it's cutting off fingers. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 9:43:13 AM |
Apparently when asked what would Jesus do? Yes, I have seen that phenomenon played out with the religious right-wing pundits and my own family. The problem is that when looking at what Jesus did, the answer is to not resist and get tortured and killed. Even staunch Christians do not like that scenario.
As has been said, in matters of being threatened, WWJD is interpreted as "What would Jack (Bauer) do?" Many people believe in getting the right imaginary person for the job. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 2:22:22 PM |
In the situation where waterboarding was used the people who were waterboarded were already known terrorists.
And how many of those that were waterboarded acutally gave up any valid infomation?
Rep. Don Manzullo apparently disagrees with his GOP colleague John Shimkus on the issue of "enhanced interrogations," according to the comments he made an interview with WGN Radio's John Williams this morning. Listen to this particular exchange, in which the Rockford Republican acknowledges -- after Williams recounted the case of Abu Zubaydah -- that "apparently waterboarding doesn't work"
http://www.progressillinois.com/2009/4/28/manzullo-on-torture | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 4:41:09 PM | I never said cops water board on TV . What I refered to was they 're interogation techniques. Waterboarding is one form of interogation, and reguardless of what they say on liberal news forums it isn't the only valuable way to extract info. I realize of course you all have made up your mind and really aren't here to discuss facts but to some how make the former administration evil water wielding tyrants.
If you want proof that the interogation worked then find out how many lethal attacks by terrorists happened after 911. and then how many happen the previous 8 years. I can think of The USS Cole, Kobar towers (not sure about the spelling) it may of been in Saudi but it was against american troops. There was the first attempt to bomb the Twin towers which if the system had worked and Clinton and his admistration had done his job, possibly the 2nd and most deadly attack would never happened either.
If i remember correctly that Gorellic woman appointed by Clinton was a key factor in the fact that the intelligence communities were blocked from sharing valuble intelligence between agencies. He also had a few opprotunities to take the Osama Bin Laden into US custody but he just didn't have time for things like that. That really turned out to be an OOOOPS. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 4:49:46 PM | | I am sure I read something about an eye for and eye in the bible. So biblically it says ones punishment should suit his crime. I suppose if you cut off someones head cause you hate they're racial background, doesn't justify such a cruel act as pouring water on their face while restrained. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 5:39:40 PM |
If you want proof that the interogation worked then find out how many lethal attacks by terrorists happened after 911. Even by this fallacious standard of proof, the interrogation fails the test:
March 11, 2004: suicide terrorist attacks shake several train stations on Spain's capital Madrid, killing 190 people and injuring 1,247.
July 7, 2005: suicide terrorist attacks shake London transport system killing 52 people and injuring 700.
http://www.netipedia.com/index.php/21st_century#Worldwide_deaths_from_war_and_terror_attacks | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 5:45:45 PM |
Clinton was a key factor in the fact that the intelligence communities were blocked from sharing valuble intelligence between agencies...........
That really turned out to be an OOOOPS.
Clinton???
How about Bush Rice, Cheney, not reading memo "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S" August 6, 2001.
I would say that shows a lack of intelligence.
The declassified intelligence report said the FBI had detected "patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings."
The memo, titled "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S.," had been described by the White House as a largely historical document with scant information about domestic al Qaeda threats.
bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to secure the release of 'Blind Sheikh' Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists," the memo says in part.
The memo includes intelligence on al Qaeda threats as recent as three months before the attacks.
Highlights of the report include:
• An intelligence report received in May 2001 indicating that al Qaeda was trying to send operatives to the United States through Canada to carry out an attack using explosives. That information had been passed on to intelligence and law enforcement agencies.
• An allegation that al Qaeda had been considering ways to hijack American planes to win the release of operatives who had been arrested in 1998 and 1999.
• An allegation that bin Laden was set on striking the United States as early as 1997 and through early 2001.
• Intelligence suggesting that suspected al Qaeda operatives were traveling to and from the United States, were U.S. citizens, and may have had a support network in the country.
• A report that at least 70 FBI investigations were under way in 2001 regarding possible al Qaeda cells/terrorist-related operations in the United States.
Dick Cheney assignment... lead the task force on domestic terrorism -
HE NEVER HAD A MEETING pre 9-11
Dick Cheney dismantled the counterterrorism office in the National Security Council in the early days of the Bush Administration.....
ignoring Richard Clark with his HAIR ON FIRE.... | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture Posted: 5/27/2009 6:21:32 PM | Clinton speech 2002,
Clinton: So we tried to be quite aggressive with them [al Qaeda]. We got – well, Mr. bin Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, then he went to Sudan. And we'd been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again. They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have. But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan.
Clinton admits to knowing as far back as 1996 that Bin Ladin had intentions to murder and terrorize the american people and he ignored them for years! Bush and Cheney in office less then 9 months and they obviously are the bad guys. They ignored one memo most likely buried in a mountain of intelligence memos. | |
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