| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 10:47:07 AM | "So now you're going to hide behind your son? You certainly are a coward. That's why you have to pretend that people you never met agree with you.
Your "sacrifices" are nothing more than a rabid delusion produced by a fevered mind."
Mental health services cut in your state recently?
Your entire post is nonsensical. But I like the use of big words....lends weight.  | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 11:09:59 AM | Wow, Flyguy, I'm not sure if I will be using the ruler for measuring, or for rapping a few knuckles for bad behavior, oh well, I'm a multi tasker, I will do both! Whack!
Play nice boys, quit with the personal attacks!
I do prescribe to the theory that you get more flys (or flyguys for that matter) with sugar than with vinegar, and was very interested in the report about the sugar free cookies. I do believe human nature responds better to fair and humane treatment rather than threats and intimidation. I understand the feelings of wanting revenge for 9/11 , but in the case of getting information from someone, I do believe that more accurate information would come from a softer approach. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 12:13:00 PM |
I don't disagree with you at all, it is definitely a case for revenge, revenge I feel is well earned.
No. A thousand times NO. Revenge is NEVER justified, and as a national policy serves only as a motivator for those who oppose us.
I don't care what information we may or may not have extracted through torture. The fact that we used it and publicly endorsed it serves as a potent recruitment tool for our enemies. Why would anyone support tactics that strengthen our enemies? And the reason we have a legal system is to avoid the lynch mob mentality I'm seeing far too often on this topic.
We can and should hold ourselves above despicable acts. The fact that despicable acts have been perpetrated against us is NO EXCUSE for lowering ourselves to the level of those we claim to be above. All that does is make impartial observers wonder whose side to be on. We should make that choice abundantly clear.
As a side note, were we not short on moderators, at least a couple of folks here would already be taking some vacation time. Passionately presenting ideas is one thing. Name calling is another. Calling someone a "coward", for example, is well over the line and justification to be banned from further forum participation. Let's treat each other with a bit of respect, shall we?
Dave | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 12:43:01 PM |
No. A thousand times NO. Revenge is NEVER justified, and as a national policy serves only as a motivator for those who oppose us.
I don't care what information we may or may not have extracted through torture. The fact that we used it and publicly endorsed it serves as a potent recruitment tool for our enemies. Why would anyone support tactics that strengthen our enemies? And the reason we have a legal system is to avoid the lynch mob mentality I'm seeing far too often on this topic.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
I think it's pretty clear that Al-Qaeda was not having any recruitment problems long prior to 9-11. Abu Ghraib and KSM's waterboarding happened after, not before. I'd say they had plenty of motivation prior to 9-11, wouldn't you?
No terrorist captured on a foreign battle field, taking arms against the US, with no uniform and no affiliation with a recognized military is covered under our justice system. And should not be either.
Think about it, apply your reasoning to Pearl Harbor, we should never have gone to war after being deliberately attacked because that would fall under 'revenge'?
But the water boarding was not meant as revenge, it was used as an interrogation tool, the revenge is just a nice side benefit.
Sometimes to subdue your enemy, you have to be just as vicious as they are, unfortunate, but true. And I don't think anyone who has seen the Daniel Pearl video can deny that KSM is one vicious SOB. He was proud of what he did to that man, proud.
"In peace there 's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger:
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect." | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 2:22:01 PM |
Sometimes to subdue your enemy, you have to be just as vicious as they are, unfortunate, but true. And I don't think anyone who has seen the Daniel Pearl video can deny that KSM is one vicious SOB. He was proud of what he did to that man, proud.
So because of a bunch of sick twisted disgusting individuals you want to descend to there level.That doesn't make any sense.Unless of course American value's and decency you want to throw out the window.I for one agree with the following statement.....“Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal… This is a critically important issue - but it is not, and never has been, a complex issue, and even to suggest otherwise does a terrible disservice to this nation… Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances. To suggest otherwise - or even to give credence to such a suggestion - represents both an affront to the law and to the core values of our nation.” [Letter, 11/2/07] | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 4:10:18 PM | | It's logical to believe that we treat different levels of criminal activity with different levels of punishment. If Khalid was to be prosecuted to full extent of the law in a capital punishment state he would no doubt get the death penalty but why kill this animal when he is a vast wealth of info. So if he his crimes are punishable by death then Waterboarding the freak of nature doesn't seem such a bad thing. Seriously he should live and be tortured every day of his life. Still he would not have paid for the pain and death he has mastermind. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 4:25:15 PM | KSM was interogated for 3 months daily and relentlessly. (thats how it works) It is reported that he was waterboarded 183 total in that time period of probably a month. Each time water was poured on to his head for a predetermined amount of time that is one water boarding session. So in one day who knows how many times they poured water on his face.
I still think that he got off easy.
He is a serial Murder! | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 4:38:10 PM | When someone has a gun to your head you don't start singing kumbya (unless you're a leftie I guess) You use all force necessary to stop their threat. KSM's knowledge of impending attacks constituted a loaded gun pointed at the entire US.
You meet force with greater force, or you become a victim, I choose not to be a victim. And I choose for my nation not to be victimized again. Water boarding was used in 3 specific cases and for specific reasons, welcome to the real world, it's a nasty place sometimes- sorry to burst your bubble.
Your moral high road doesn't help the person jumping from the 98th floor now does it?
If you feel it more intellectual and enlightened to be a victim, by all means carry on, the terrorists will be happy to oblige you.
Our first, moral obligation, is to protect our country and it's citizens, if a couple of people with information to prevent that need a little encouragement to tell what they know, too bad, KSM should be executed, instead he is alive, and has not want for food or medical care- I do not feel sorry for him. He chose his path and this is where it has led him. He is proud of having master minded the killing of 2,800 of your countrymen- in a most horrific manner- yet you continue to vilify the victim and not the perpetrator.
Curious that. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 6:07:09 PM | I think it's pretty clear that Al-Qaeda was not having any recruitment problems long prior to 9-11. Abu Ghraib and KSM's waterboarding happened after, not before. I'd say they had plenty of motivation prior to 9-11, wouldn't you?
My point is that we played right into their hands by exhibiting the behavior after 9/11 that we were accused of before. Had we managed the aftermath differently, Al Qaeda would have found little sympathy anywhere in the world.
No terrorist captured on a foreign battle field, taking arms against the US, with no uniform and no affiliation with a recognized military is covered under our justice system.
Any human being in our custody should be afforded basic rights. That includes the right not to be tortured. I'm not talking about coddling, but I am talking about humane treatment. And it's clear that we need to develop legal protocols for handling such cases. Gitmo has turned into a global embarrassment.
Think about it, apply your reasoning to Pearl Harbor, we should never have gone to war after being deliberately attacked because that would fall under 'revenge'?
My reasoning doesn't apply to Pearl Harbor. That was a military strike against a military base, resulting in a military response. The only place my reasoning applies in that case is in how we should have treated any captured prisoners. Is there any evidence we water boarded any japanese? Or as Jesse Ventura noted, is that something we only do to Muslims?
Sometimes to subdue your enemy, you have to be just as vicious as they are, unfortunate, but true
Anyone in our custody has already been subdued. No need for vicious behavior at that point.
And I don't think anyone who has seen the Daniel Pearl video can deny that KSM is one vicious SOB. He was proud of what he did to that man, proud.
A perfect example to prove my point, actually. When you saw that video was your reaction "these folks are nasty - we should do whatever they want and not confront them" or instead did it inflame your passion to respond violently? So why should we expect our enemies to be cowed by our use of torture, when they're far more likely to be much more highly motivated?
Dave | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 6:52:31 PM |
A perfect example to prove my point, actually. When you saw that video was your reaction "these folks are nasty - we should do whatever they want and not confront them" or instead did it inflame your passion to respond violently? So why should we expect our enemies to be cowed by our use of torture, when they're far more likely to be much more highly motivated?
They were already highly motivated years before 911, that's clear.
KSM deserves much worse than what he got and is currently getting, of that there is no doubt. Water boarding was used on him and two others- forgive me if I don't shed a bitter tear for the poor **stards.
I don't advocate torture as a matter of course, but I do know it can be effective in getting time sensitive intel from an unwilling person. It's not something that can remain effective over the long term, our people know this and that is why it is used in a limited way to focus on a specific bit of intel. KSM was never going to drown or be allowed to be permanently harmed- and somehow I think someone capable of sawing another mans head off is not so delicate in his sensibilities that we should worry about traumatizing him. If you can hold a freshly severed head up to the camera with glee, counseling is the least of your needs.
He was made a little scared, so what? I bet Daniel Pearl felt a lot more terror than KSM did. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 7:14:31 PM |
I don't advocate torture as a matter of course, but I do know it can be effective in getting time sensitive intel from an unwilling person.
From what I can tell, that seems to be very much a minority perspective within the intelligence community, and the concept of time sensitive intel is also a lot more rare than we might think.
Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree both on torture and whether there is ever justification for revenge.
Just so you know, I don't shed any tears for those who have committed heinous acts either, but neither do I advocate for their torture or extreme treatment. They simply need to be removed from society so they can no longer do what they did. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 7:17:22 PM | "My point is that we played right into their hands by exhibiting the behavior after 9/11 that we were accused of before. Had we managed the aftermath differently, Al Qaeda would have found little sympathy anywhere in the world."
In these situations your damned if you do or damned if you don't, naturally if your going to have the reputation of being a hard ass letting people walk all over you and disrupt you life and community is not going to make the bad people go away. Sometimes living up to the rep is important. Offense gives you better fighting positions after the battle has started. Battle was started a long time before 9/11 and that was the day we were made to be on the defensive. It should never happen again. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 7:35:28 PM |
No terrorist captured on a foreign battle field, taking arms against the US, with no uniform and no affiliation with a recognized military is covered under our justice system. And should not be either. LMAO ... captured on a battlefield taking arms against the US. Most of them were bought from the Pakistanis. There's information about it all over the web.
The "captured on a foreign battlefield taking arms against the US" is nothing more than a bunch of neocon propaganda bunk.
But the water boarding was not meant as revenge, it was used as an interrogation tool, the revenge is just a nice side benefit. The water boarding done to Al Libi produced all kinds of false information and that information was used to promote us into illegally invading a sovereign nation. In the meantime, hundreds of thousands have been killed.
The thread topic is about a man who previously insisted that water boarding was not torture and since having it done to himself, has determined that indeed it is torture. Coming in here and making all kinds of wild statements and ranting on about revenge while calling others names won't change what that man now thinks.
Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea for some to do a review on the forum rules. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 7:35:43 PM |
In these situations your damned if you do or damned if you don't
I agree that the natural reaction is to lash out, but I really do wish that we had focused our violence on Bin Laden and his gang, rather than entire countries. I really think we could have enlisted the support of almost every other country in the world to hunt him down and bring him to justice. Instead we threw away all that international goodwill and set ourselves up for criticism.
dave | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 8:18:26 PM |
agree that the natural reaction is to lash out, but I really do wish that we had focused our violence on Bin Laden and his gang, rather than entire countries. I really think we could have enlisted the support of almost every other country in the world to hunt him down and bring him to justice. Instead we threw away all that international goodwill and set ourselves up for criticism.
Unfortunately, painting your own version of history doesn't make it so. A bit more detail happened, and Hind sight is a useless tool. | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 8:35:29 PM |
Unfortunately, painting your own version of history doesn't make it so. A bit more detail happened, and Hind sight is a useless tool.
Not that it matters, but that was my perspective at the time, too. I actively protested both our Afghanistan and Iraq actions. If you'd asked me the day after 9/11 what we should do it would have sounded much like what I just wrote.
And yes, we can learn from our mistakes. I really hope we never consider torture again. That will help fade this black mark in our history.
Dave | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 10:26:43 PM | Your right Barbe, I misspoke by saying it was useless .. You can always learn from the past.
Not that it matters, but that was my perspective at the time, too. I actively protested both our Afghanistan and Iraq actions. If you'd asked me the day after 9/11 what we should do it would have sounded much like what I just wrote./
Ok wvwaterfall i want to try something with you to maybe get an idea of what your tolerance level is.
You said your opinion based on what information was provided to you at the time of the towers falling, Planes flying into buildings such as the Pentagon, and trade center another plane flowned into the ground and people on the plane confirming the that it was being hijacked by terrorist later found to be Al Queda and the the search for Bin Laden in afhganistan after confirming that he was involved in 911 , Saddams antics in concealing the whereabouts of documented wmds and not cooperating with the UN and weapons inspectors stretching over several years. Saddams already known capabilities to deploy weapons of mass destruction on hundred of thousands of innocent people ,according to Sandy Berger on 10 separate occasions ... possible communications bettween Saddams regime and AL Quaeda bettween 1992 and 2003. Based on all this information Millions of peoples lives and futures hingeing on your decision to act in a timely manner and with impeccable judgement.
What decisions would you make to secure the nation and prevent possible future attacks?
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 10:54:04 PM | Your moral high road doesn't help the person jumping from the 98th floor now does it?
Nor does it help them or our country to be as vicious as our enemies.Or to sink to there level.
If you feel it more intellectual and enlightened to be a victim, by all means carry on, the terrorists will be happy to oblige you.
How is not supporting torture and trying to uphold the core principles of the united states being a victim?I would say by using the same tactic's as AL qaeda your "joining there mindset".
yet you continue to vilify the victim and not the perpetrator.
I have stated what has happened on 9 11 and Daniel pearl were barbaric and disgusting yet you advocate using the same tactic's curious that.You know being as vicious as our enemies.Sorry to burst your bubble but it would be just as morally wrong to see an American soldier beheading a person as pearl was beheaded.Our nation should be above torture morally legally and the simple fact that numerous jags,interrogation experts CIA have all stated it is wrong.And lead's to false information.
Nice company you want to join Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death." | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 5:02:17 AM |
I have stated what has happened on 9 11 and Daniel pearl were barbaric and disgusting yet you advocate using the same tactic's curious that.You know being as vicious as our enemies.Sorry to burst your bubble but it would be just as morally wrong to see an American soldier beheading a person as pearl was beheaded.Our nation should be above torture morally legally and the simple fact that numerous jags,interrogation experts CIA have all stated it is wrong.And lead's to false information.
As far as i know no American has cut off anyones head for a camera in the same manner that KSM did. Compareing the treatment that detainees get at Gitmo to the treatment of americans when in the clutches of Terrorist is hands down americans are brutalized ... | |
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| Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 8:54:23 AM |
As far as i know no American has cut off anyones head for a camera in the same manner that KSM did
True, our govt instead took the more acceptable route of raping the wives and children of detainees in front of the detainees, and raping the detainees with flashlights, broomsticks, etc
Thank God we don't torture  | |
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