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| | Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...Page 24 of 32 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32) |
I identify more with the conservative party than liberal, but I also support the law which legalizes abortion
Well Good for you!!!
There's a saying on the internet - "If it's not about you, then it's not about you"
Since you obviously do not have disdain for the rule of law, I have no idea why you think my words were addressed to you.
However, it's very clear that this murderer is a rightwing terrorist with a disdain for the law, and it's equally clear that there are conservatives who see no problem with these terrorists.
I know it must make your head spin to realize that not everyone falls into your narrow world view of how a "conservative" must think.I know it must make your head spin to realize that not everyone falls into your narrow world view of how a "conservative" must think
No, it doesn't make my head spin. What makes my head spin is the idea that you think I said manything about how a conservative "must" think. I wonder if you can quote where said that? Why are you so defensive?
Is it because you realize how many of your so-called "conservative" allies have no loyalty to principle? Funny that a conservative can openly and explicitely claim to have no problem with right wing terrorism and you say nothing about that, but my pointing it out makes you complain about how unfair I'm being. | |
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| Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...
Posted: 7/10/2009 1:16:33 PM | | If you're gonna lump all conservatives into having "no problem" with this murder then expect someone to call you out on it. If I said "all liberals hate babies and want them to die" then you would perhaps see what I mean, and then I could play the semantics game with you as well. | |
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| Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...
Posted: 7/10/2009 1:46:12 PM | I find it sad that the doctor was murdered. I do see it as harmful to the pro-life position.
I also find it sad that murdering children was the best he would offer society. | |
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| Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...
Posted: 7/10/2009 2:28:12 PM |
There is a difference between being alive and a life. My arm is alive, but it is not a life. An embryo is alive, but it is not a life. Here is the definition:
Let me again try to begin by defining life and I think there exists a reasonable consensus amongst biologists on this definition, namely that life consists of all of the self-contained units of nature considered primarily of organic matter, autonomously and I stress the autonomously capable of undergoing development, reproduction and evolution. Note that this definition excludes the viruses because they're not autonomously capable of undergoing development and reproduction.
http://www.bioethics.gov/transcripts/jan03/session1.html
What difference does it make if an embro is alive, or life...what does that prove or not prove...
It doesnt matter to me or the Supreme Court that your arm is alive or an Embryo is not life...
The Supreme Court ruled that a Fetus becomes viable at 28 weeks.(human Life) | |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 2:40:01 PM |
If you're gonna lump all conservatives into having "no problem" with this murder then expect someone to call you out on it. If I said "all liberals hate babies and want them to die" then you would perhaps see what I mean, and then I could play the semantics game with you as well.
And where did you imagine I said that all conservatives have no problem with this?
(Prediction: Here's where you play the semantics game and tell me what my words really meant) | |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 8:36:56 PM |
The Supreme Court ruled that a Fetus becomes viable at 28 weeks.(human Life)
I dont even care what the supreme court says about this. I have seen from my own eyes life @ 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 weeks and so on....... I work in a Level IV hospital in Labor & Delivery and I float to the NICU on occasion. Level IV hospitals offer the highest care and we receive all the high risk pregnancy's and premature deliveries within our area, and we have also been known to airlift premature infants from other states. These infants are human, these infants are alive and no one, not you, not the courts, not anyone can tell me otherwise. We care for these tiny babies as well as we care for their mothers because a life is a life and care is care no matter what the age. In fact we had an infant who was born @ 23 weeks "graduate" yesterday and was able to be sent home with his mommy. Tell THAT one to the supreme court. Not viable? I think not...... | |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 8:41:27 PM |
The Supreme Court ruled that a Fetus becomes viable at 28 weeks.(human Life)
My daughter was born after 27 weeks. She's the girl in my profile picture with me. She's big, she's beautiful, she has no health problems, and is the best thing I've ever done. | |
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| Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...
Posted: 7/10/2009 8:50:52 PM |
My daughter was born after 27 weeks. She's the girl in my profile picture with me. She's big, she's beautiful, she has no health problems, and is the best thing I've ever done.
And she's beautiful!! I look at tiny babies all the time and it never ceases to amaze me how people can say they aren't human yet or they aren't viable, etc. The only difference between these little fighters and ones that are aborted is that these ones were "wanted." Elective abortions are offered until the 24th week in my state, and we see younger infants than that all the time. What's the difference between the ones I care for in the NICU and the ones aborted and incinerated? Absolutely none, there is no difference...... | |
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Posted: 7/10/2009 9:42:25 PM |
Let me again try to begin by defining life and I think there exists a reasonable consensus amongst biologists on this definition, namely that life consists of all of the self-contained units of nature considered primarily of organic matter, autonomously and I stress the autonomously capable of undergoing development, reproduction and evolution. Note that this definition excludes the viruses because they're not autonomously capable of undergoing development and reproduction.
http://www.bioethics.gov/transcripts/jan03/session1.html
Last I checked, parasites were considered alive too. Aren't embryos simply leeching off of the mother's resources? It doesn't fail the autonomous categorization simply because it needs nutrients from an outside source. An embryo does develop itself, it will become able to reproduce, given time (unless young children aren't alive now?) However, as an individual organism, doesn't everything fail the evolution quota? Evolving is not a per being requisite. Otherwise, I'd be counted as a non-organism because I was born Homo Sapien, and will die Homo Sapien. | |
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Posted: 7/11/2009 5:33:30 AM |
was born @ 23 weeks "graduate" yesterday and was able to be sent home with his mommy. Tell THAT one to the supreme court. Not viable? I think not......
There has to be some base point...With the advancement in medical technology, you will be sending children home with their mother before the 28 weeks viability mark...
viable is viable...will you send a child home after 12 wks gestation? most likely not...because you know, as weell as I do, a Fetus at 12 weeks can't sustain himself out of the womb, his heart, Lungs, and other vital functions are not yet far enough developed.
If in 1973, the Court had the Medical knowledge you have now, the 28 week viability may have been different. but it is what it is, and it's the Law. | |
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| Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...
Posted: 7/11/2009 11:12:40 AM |
And where did you imagine I said that all conservatives have no problem with this?
"Another rightwing terrorist shows his disdain for the rule of law
Conservatives fail to see a problem." - you | |
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Posted: 7/11/2009 9:55:55 PM | Once again, when we're throwing around weeks of gestation for viability numbers . . let's be specific on embryonic/fetal age versus gestational age, since there IS a difference of about 2 weeks, the former being the time since approximate fertilization, the latter being the time from the last menstrual period. Thus, for example, 10 weeks of embryonic/fetal age is considered 12 weeks of gestational age.
The survival record, as of 2006, is 21 weeks 5 days gestational age (ie: just under 20 weeks fetal age), James Elgin Gill, in 1987. Next up is 21 weeks 6 days gestational age (again, just under 20 weeks fetal age), Amilia Taylor, in 2006.
So, babydoll127, I assume you weren't working in the hospital at age 7, and I'm guessing you weren't working in Miami 2 years ago. Your post seems to imply that you've seen 21 week gestational age babies survive, which cannot be the case unless you were in attendance at the birth of Amilia Taylor - unless you mean 21 week fetal age, which is 23 weeks gestational. Further, nobody said they were not alive at that point, and nobody said they were not human at that point - they are just not legally considered persons if the quote about the Supreme Court is correct. Additionally, the definition of "human" and the definition of "a human being" are, unfortunately, different, with the latter having somewhat of a more "person" definition rather than meaning biologically human, but this appears to be affected by informal use.
Further, if not aborted, anencephalic babies are alive up to birth and for a very short time thereafter. Other than physical form (except for the missing skull and brain), they look quite normal. But they cannot and will not survive. What then?
The "Limit Of Viability," assuming Wikipedia's info is correct (article is VERY short and links to different sites in 6 footnotes), is:
The limit of viability is the gestational age at which a prematurely born fetus/infant has a 50% chance of longterm survival outside its mother's womb. With the support of neonatal intensive care units, the limit of viability in the developed world has declined since 50 years ago, but has remained unchanged in the last 12 years.] Currently the limit of viability is considered to be around 24 weeks although the incidence of major disabilities remains high at this point. Neonatologists generally would not provide intensive care at 23 weeks, but would from 26 weeks. | |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 1:43:42 AM | This limit of viability seems to imply that statistics plays a significant role in the decision of weather a newborn is viable or not. What about the embryos though? From a statistical stand point, wouldn't most of them (more than 50%) go on to develop into children, if given the chance? What then is the justification for aborting that embryo?
If you say it's not human, you've failed to grasp genetics, it seems. If you say it's not alive, see my previous post. Does it being human and alive equal human-life?
I see a lot of dancing around the whole human-life/human-being definition issue... I posit that a parasite is an individual life. If the host dies, so does the parasite. An embryo could very well be awarded the same status based on this. Especially considering that a mother has no direct control over the embryo's development. It develops by itself, autonomously. | |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 5:40:05 AM |
The Limit of Viability -- Neonatal Outcome of Infants Born at 22 to 25 Weeks' Gestation
Marilee C. Allen, Pamela K. Donohue, and Amy E. Dusman
Background With improved survival of preterm infants, questions have been raised about the limit of viability. To provide better information and counseling for parents of infants about to be delivered after 22 to 25 weeks' gestation, we evaluated the mortality and neonatal morbidity of preterm infants born at these gestational ages.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/329/22/1597
The 50% number has nothing to do with 28 wk vialbility mark. | |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:25:45 AM |
If you say it's not human, you've failed to grasp genetics, it seems. If you say it's not alive, see my previous post. Does it being human and alive equal human-life?
Why do you disappear and never acknowledge the points made to refute your posts? Why should we refer to your previous posts when you don't even have the decency to refer to ours? | |
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| Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...
Posted: 7/12/2009 1:50:09 PM |
"Another rightwing terrorist shows his disdain for the rule of law
Conservatives fail to see a problem." - you
Like I said, it says nothing about all conservatives or what they must think. | |
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| Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...
Posted: 7/12/2009 3:49:20 PM | Conservatives or Liberals, it doesn't matter. Nobody should be OK with a grown adult Murdering a Doctor that he believes is doing something wrong.
The murder of this doctor should set back the Pro Life side a few steps, showing that they still have the lunatics and terrorists heavily involved in their organizations. The pro-lifers would be wise to do whatever they can to disassociate themselves from this killer.
I'm glad the majority of people are still in favor of legal abortions, and almost all citizens are against premeditated murders like the killing of this doctor. Those who condone it are scary people and obviously are a threat to all of us. | |
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| Late Term Abortion Doctor Killed...
Posted: 7/12/2009 6:39:58 PM |
The murder of this doctor should set back the Pro Life side a few steps
It won't.
showing that they still have the lunatics and terrorists heavily involved in their organizations.
I don't recall ever hearing the murderer being part of any pro-life organization, but I could be wrong. In any case, it's a lone act by a homocidal madman, not evidence of heavy involvement by lunatics and "terrorists". Come on, folks. Where is your perspective? This guy doesn't represent anyone but himself.
The pro-lifers would be wise to do whatever they can to disassociate themselves from this killer.
You're serious? Do you randomly go around disassociating yourself from pro-choicers who have broken the law? Let's say the pro-lifers don't disassociate themselves, despite your "wise" advice. What is the penalty for that? Frowny faces from someone on an internet forum? Please. | |
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| Abortion Doctor Finially Killed...
Posted: 7/12/2009 10:05:50 PM | SAguy_06 wrote:
The 50% number has nothing to do with 28 wk vialbility mark.
Agreed. Though the references I came across said the Supreme Court with Roe v Wade put viability at "sometime between the 24th and 28th week"
The "limit of viability" is just a specific medical term to define a certain probability.
Touchdown Bundy wrote:
I don't recall ever hearing the murderer being part of any pro-life organization, but I could be wrong.
He was a member of "Army of God" which is a group that strongly advocates the killing of abortion doctors. I'm not sure whether saying they're an "anti-abortion organization" or a "pro-life" organization is a fine or not-so-fine distinction.
A lot of pro-life groups have been rapidly condemning Tiller, but there are a few people/groups that seem to support him - though I'm not clear on their status per se (ie: original founder of Operation Rescue, gave a statement, for example, that called Tiller a murderer, but didn't really say anything for or against Roeder.
Operation Rescue says he's not a member - though, he posted to their message board twice. I have no idea if you have to be a member to do that or not, but probably not.
What makes Operation Rescue suspect is that Cheryl Sullenger, the senior policy advisor, at first denied any contact with him, but then later said she did inform Roeder where Dr Tiller would be at specific times, primarily court dates.
She was also convicted of conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic in the late 1980s, which, presumably, is something O.R. would know when they took her on, especially since that was in San Diego, and the current head, Troy Newman, is also from San Diego, and Sullenger was his second in command back in S.D. | |
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Posted: 7/13/2009 12:32:50 AM | Why do you disappear and never acknowledge the points made to refute your posts? Why should we refer to your previous posts when you don't even have the decency to refer to ours?
If being "alive" (in the strictest definition of the word) is all that a mass of cells needs in order to be granted a "right to life" then I could also make the argument that anyone going through chemo is also a "murderer"....
Your hypothetical cancer could not be considered a separate being, could it? It shares your DNA and is a part of your body, however undesired. A fetus does not share your DNA (in its entirety) and is not a part of your body, even though it does share its resources. While a tumor, an arm and a fetus are all alive, the fetus is unique in that is a separate entity.
Sorry for being so discourteous. Please answer the question now. If it's a self contained human (genetics) and alive (uses food/oxygen, made of cells, etc), is a fetus something other than a human life?
To those that would argue against a fetus being self contained, let me refer to the parasite argument I made earlier. An intestinal worm is a separate entity from its host. A fetus is too, by genetics. It is not equivalent to your arm because, frankly, it's not a part of you at all. It is a separate life that is not yours to take. | |
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| Abortion Doctor Finially Killed...
Posted: 7/13/2009 5:46:50 AM |
Your hypothetical cancer could not be considered a separate being, could it? It shares your DNA and is a part of your body, however undesired. A fetus does not share your DNA (in its entirety) and is not a part of your body, even though it does share its resources. While a tumor, an arm and a fetus are all alive, the fetus is unique in that is a separate entity.
Actually, for the time it is developing in the mother's uterus, it is NOT a separate being. It is wholly formed by, and attached to, the mother's body. There is a trade of nutrients and waste products between them.... some have argued that a fetus is parasitic and they wouldn't be far off in the strictest sense of the word. A tumour, then, could be considered somewhat the same. A self-contained entity within the human body that relies on the host for food, oxygen, etc.
If it's a self contained human (genetics) and alive (uses food/oxygen, made of cells, etc), is a fetus something other than a human life?
It isn't self contained... it takes nutrients from the mother's body via the umbilical cord/placenta and expels waste through the same mechanisms. The mother then has to "work" harder to process and rid her body of the extra waste. I wouldn't argue that it's not human nor alive... but I believe it's disingenuous to refer to it as a human life.. as if it is a person. It isn't, until it's fully formed, born and not dependent on it's mother anymore.
To those that would argue against a fetus being self contained, let me refer to the parasite argument I made earlier. An intestinal worm is a separate entity from its host. A fetus is too, by genetics. It is not equivalent to your arm because, frankly, it's not a part of you at all. It is a separate life that is not yours to take.
Would you advocate that all parasites (like intestinal worms) be allowed to stay in their hosts simply because they are "self-contained" and "alive"?
It is a separate life that is not yours to take.
And I believe that I should have complete control and autonomy over my own body and what it is used for. If I don't want to breed, I won't. I will have final say in how/what my body is used for and, quite frankly, my right to do that is not yours to take. | |
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| Abortion Doctor Finially Killed...
Posted: 7/13/2009 6:27:49 AM |
The "limit of viability" is just a specific medical term to define a certain probability.
That was the point I was trying to make... | |
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Posted: 7/13/2009 7:23:10 AM |
Conservatives or Liberals, it doesn't matter. Nobody should be OK with a grown adult Murdering a Doctor that he believes is doing something wrong.
Since the only people who are OK with this are conservatives, it does matter
<div class="quote">Your hypothetical cancer could not be considered a separate being, could it? It shares your DNA and is a part of your body, however undesired. A fetus does not share your DNA (in its entirety) and is not a part of your body
Cancer cells do not share the patients' DNA in its entirety either, and a cancel tumor is NOT a body part
You're wrong on both counts. A fetus is not a human life, and more importantly a fetus is not a person. | |
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| Abortion Doctor Finially Killed...
Posted: 7/13/2009 8:14:31 AM |
Since the only people who are OK with this are conservatives, it does matter
There you go again. believe it or not, there are liberals who are pro-life. And, of that group, I'm sure there are a few who are just fine with what happened. Just as with the conservative side. I envy your simple, black and white outlook on life. Everyone who doesn't think exactly like you is pro-murder, apparently. | |
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