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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 8:54:51 AM | vigilantes as often attack the innocent as the guilty
Are you sure that's a fact?
we have is anarchy, wherein everyone, virtually everyone, is at risk.
Some would call it social democracy, and say it's about time.
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Nope, neither is a criminal getting away on a technicality. Which happens EVERY day!
Choose your poison, is my point.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 9:14:26 AM | ^^^^
Are you sure that's a fact?
I just provided a link whereby vigilantes targetted a paedophile, but burned down the neighbour's house instead.
What would be an acceptable margin of error for you? If you were the homeowner, would you just chalk that up to a simple mistake? No harm, no foul? Or perhaps it's the homeowner's fault because they lived close to a paedophile? | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 9:27:41 AM |
criminal getting away on a technicality
Even a dozen criminals "getting away on a technicality" does not justify the beating or maiming of one innocent person. Not one. Including you.
You propose a system of anarchy or, as you frame it, "social democracy" where the ends justify the means. If you like it that much, move to Somalia, where there is no government and no rule of law.
G'Luck........ | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 9:49:43 AM | With all do respect Cheshire, I do enjoy your posts, but I want to discuss...
<div class="quote"> Even a dozen criminals "getting away on a technicality" does not justify the beating or maiming of one innocent person. Not one. Including you.
When you say criminals, what do you mean? Petty theft? Or sadistic child rapists?
I abhor the idea of the unwilling "sacrificial lamb".
But twelve criminals, capable of horrific crimes, getting off on a technicality...the beating and maiming of an innocent person, will at the minimal, be the beating and maiming of at least a dozen people.
I am playing devil's advocate, in order to resolve an ambivalence that exists within my own mind... | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 9:50:28 AM | | if that guy really did rape a child and got beat, the only thing i have to say is good, iam so sick and tried of these people getting a couple of years or in some cases just months for what they do to kids, then we treat them like they are sick, its all b.s., i no i have no problem sleeping at night knowing a child rapist get the shit kicked outta them, this is based on the fact that guy did rape a child. i was not there, iam just saying IF he did. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 10:56:05 AM | Divagreen,
I do get the impression that some people think of vigilantes as comparable to comic figures such as Superman or Batman. Of course, it goes without saying that these characters are not real, but real-life vigilantes are not really well-intentioned folks dressing up in costumes, protecting the innocent and interceding where police cannot. Furthermore, vigilantes are also not comparable to the modern day bounty hunter. Even Dog Chapman has to work inside the confines of the law, otherwise all of his captured felons would also walk free on a technicality.
Vigilantes are humans who are fallible and subject to the mob mentality. Innocent people cannot be construed as “collateral damage” of a vigilante. The proper way for society to deal with criminal behaviour is of course by the administration of law, which are not merely a set of “guidelines” to be followed. The mechanism by which democracy deals with this fundamental rule is the court of law, where both sides are given the right to be heard. Those accused of harming a fellow citizen or breaking the law in some other way are brought before a jury of peers and judged. Once the evidence has been weighed, a judgement is then made.
The only thing worse than to deprive an innocent person of freedom would be to deprive him or her of life. Vigilante justice is illegal and dangerously undemocratic because in punishing another person without trial, even if he is guilty of a crime, undermines the democratic basis of the legal system. You would have to make the presumption that the person in question, who could be any law-abiding citizen, is presumed guilty until proven innocent.
I absolutely agree with anyone who says that there is satisfaction in a criminal receiving their just desserts. But essentially, this comes down to ones view of ethics, or what is right. Is it right to break some laws, or is it more appropriate to take a Socratic view, that is, assuming the law is right and following it?
But in answer to your question Divagreen, the criminals in question could be guilty of petty theft or even war crimes, ethnic crimes, rape, robbery, whatever. From a philosophical standpoint, it makes no difference to me. Furthermore, the question asks us to suspend disbelief that the police let every criminal go free and that we are operating under a system of lawlessness.
Here's a closely related ethical issue to ponder: While not accidental, the police in Brazil regularly kill street people and poor people because they believe that it keeps crime rates down; I can’t think of a better example of ethical deterioration and “collateral damage” due to state-sponsored vigilantism. There is no crime in being a poor street person. Yet Brazil continues to suffer high crime rates including murder, human trafficking, and black marketing. Clearly, MAKING AN ASSUMPTION ABOUT GUILT and the guilty doesn’t work, especially on a mass scale.
Be well……. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 1:15:50 PM |
Here's a closely related ethical issue to ponder: While not accidental, the police in Brazil regularly kill street people and poor people because they believe that it keeps crime rates down; I can’t think of a better example of ethical deterioration and “collateral damage” due to state-sponsored vigilantism. There is no crime in being a poor street person. Yet Brazil continues to suffer high crime rates including murder, human trafficking, and black marketing. Clearly, MAKING AN ASSUMPTION ABOUT GUILT and the guilty doesn’t work, especially on a mass scale.
I find it interesting that you seem to think Law will do good things (otherwise it's ANARCHY! GASP!), and yet here you have it, an example from yourself of how useless Law can be.
Notice I say Law -- not Justice. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 1:21:52 PM | I still stand by vigilante justice on issues such as child rape and unprovoked assault on someone especially younger or otherwise incapable of defending oneself. I am tired of these f ucked up individuals being able to go about f ucked up business with no one stopping them. take a shoplifter or a robber for instance if employees or other people were allowed to try and stop them then they might actually reduce the amount of robberies that go on but no we have to have a open door policy for these things!
oh please rob us we can't do anything to you because if we do you can sue us!
that undermines the justice system more than anything!!!
Even if this guy kills someone we can be held liable for impeding his progress of escape!
no not even hurting him he can sue us for standing in his way what kind of crap is this!
What the law should do is that if the guy committed a crime against you first then he can not use counter lawsuits to get back at you!
for everyone that wants to protect these evil men think about it. Cops have actually told my friend once who might of got sued by the robber said to him next time if a robber is on your property kill him make sure he does not leave alive he can't sue if he is dead!
Hey works for me but then that would be inhumane because these people are obviously the pinnacle of humane respect we should hope we can be graced by them to harm our families!! | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 1:35:15 PM |
I still stand by vigilante justice on issues such as child rape and unprovoked assault on someone especially younger or otherwise incapable of defending oneself.
You mean like this?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/14/national/main3262871.shtml | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 2:11:27 PM |
an example from yourself of how useless Law can be.
My dear, the fact that those actions are committed by the police does not make it law (and certainly not justice) by any stretch of the imagination. It is still a crime, even in Brazil , where the police are really just a large, well-organized murder service. Brazil didn't get to be the fourth most violent country in the world with some help from the popo.
Too bad you didn't find the statement about faulty "assumption of guilt" equally interesting. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 2:52:18 PM | Given the state of courts as well as jails & prisons these days (revolving door "justice"), vigilante justice is likely the only justice many of the scum who walk the streets will ever know.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20090605_Out_of_hospital__rape_suspect_questioned.html
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/jose-carrasquillo-vigilante-justice-accused-child-rapist
This guy's life was never in danger - he was out of the hospital in two days. The "crowd"? Some indicate 20-30 people? - Video shows 4-5 actually in contact with him. These "neighbors" all look like homeboys.
Videotape? Yes, videotapes show CARRASQUILLO walking along the street - just feet from his 11-year old victim and her sister, then without the sister as he led her to the property to attack her. Not some vague unknown, but a clearly identifiable Carrasquillo.
By June 5th the reward had been paid out to the two teens who identified him on the street (and apparently were among the 4-5 people who helped to subdue him). Carrasquillo was now no longer called a person of interest, but the only hard suspect in the rape, and the Philly police and mayor had announced that no one would be charged in the beating of the rapist.
Carrasquillo is also implicated as a sex abuser who groped another schoolgirl just one hour before the rape took place. After he was beaten, Carrasquillo wasn't taken into custody for the rape, but for an outstanding warrant - not bad for someone who just recently got out of the big house. He'd been quite the busy boy in a short time, obviously.
"Since this all began, police say more victims of sexual assault have been coming forward, saying Carrasquillo is the man who attacked them."
Also, DNA evidence did come back linkin him to the rape. So now what?
Maybe next time he gets out of prison, he'll resort to killing his victims instead, to avoid witnesses. Maybe that will make the bleeding hearts happier. This guy won't get his real just desserts until he's made someone's girlfriend in prison. Maybe they'll just run a train on him until he has to experience what he put his victim through - surgery to repair damage from the attack. That would be real justice. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 3:21:19 PM | This "bleeding heart" is glad that the mob did not grab Dr. Jose Carrasquillo , a Gastroenterologist, also from Philly.
Your example is part of the OT by the OP.
As you mention, cops had DNA on him, so forensic science works despite other claims to the contrary, and his arrest was imminent.
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/25/2009 6:40:25 PM |
Vigilantes are humans who are fallible and subject to the mob mentality.
But, so are the people who "uphold" the law.
I absolutely agree with anyone who says that there is satisfaction in a criminal receiving their just desserts. But essentially, this comes down to ones view of ethics, or what is right.
Very, very true.
Is it right to break some laws, or is it more appropriate to take a Socratic view, that is, assuming the law is right and following it?
Now, this statement truly interests me. Socrates was a pursuant of truth and knowledge. He was also condemned to death, for guilt by association. He also had the chance to flee, but did not.
He was the "victim" of the mob mentality, they just happened to be the lawmakers of that war-time.
Food for thought, for me, on all levels...
suspend disbelief
Another term for trust. I love this definition of trust.
But, back to our discussion...
Furthermore, the question asks us to suspend disbelief that the police let every criminal go free and that we are operating under a system of lawlessness.
But we are not talking about the police here, (at least I am not, but I am coming at this from a philosophical angle), we are talking about a judicial system that is influenced by current politics. Like the Socratic view. The judicial system may make a martyr or a victim, out of the very same people that the mob mentality would make of such. Or...someone who deserves to be put under punitive measures, and is under the wrath of all that the current judicial system may harbor. Trusting that the people involved, in bringing this case to trial, are not pedophile sympathizers.
There is something about reading, how an eleven year was raped so horrendously, that she required surgery, brings out the grrrowl within me.
While not accidental, the police in Brazil regularly kill street people and poor people because they believe that it keeps crime rates down; I can’t think of a better example of ethical deterioration and “collateral damage” due to state-sponsored vigilantism.
But that isn't vigilantism, if it is accordance with the current law.
We are entering the grounds, for some very thought-provoking, ethical questioning, and moral examination here.
Thank you Cheshire. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:01:09 AM |
I'm trying to point out just what a stupid idea it is to applaud the actions of a mob whose actions are based on an accusation . That's all it is and if you really believe that it's smarter to let mobs mete out justice then you should pray to any god or gods you believe in that you don't ever happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time ... I can only understand those who support vigilante justice if I rationalize it that they are people who just can't imagine what the world would be like if vigilantism was the status quo. The example of the old west isn't actually one of vigilantism. In most cases some kind of law enforcement structure was set up as soon as there was a community of people settled in one area. It didn't always work, hence the lynch mobs. To assume that the people who were lynched were always the guilty ones would be to make an assumption without any supportive evidence. The law enforcement structure in any country or entity at any time has never been and never will be perfect; however, it beats anarchy any day. As I and others have said, look to a place like Somalia if you don't believe. How safe do you think the average citizen is in a place like that? Would you actually choose to live there rather than in the safe confines of a country that does have a functional law enforcement system? | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/26/2009 9:50:46 AM | @crisscrim
take a shoplifter or a robber for instance if employees or other people were allowed to try and stop them then they might actually reduce the amount of robberies that go
You might also get shot. Do you care so little about yourself and your co-workers that you are willing to put them at risk? I’m sure your employer advises you not to get involved. I understand your frustration with petty crime and criminals, but are you willing to put your life on the line for a stolen iPod? I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but that technique really will do nothing to eliminate petty theft. The causes of crime are multi-dimensional and require a psychodynamic approach.
@divagreen
But, so are the people who "uphold" the law.
This is true. I understand why the police lose it on some criminals. But there are checks and balances put in place to control crime while also respecting individual rights. In the US, you’re allowed to invoke your Miranda rights, and in Canada we’ve got equivalent rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We have procedures for determining whether people are able to stand trial. There are rules about entrapment, property rights, search and seizure, and confessions, that protect the rights of the guilty, but importantly, they protect the rights of the innocent as well. The philosophy of law, or jurisprudence, has been in development since Roman times, and guides our actions to this day.
In contrast, vigilantes don’t have a system of checks and balances in place to control their brand of rough justice. Once a group of vigilantes have focussed on a person, there are no controls in place to moderate their behaviour or stop them completely. They’re often irrational, and even after they’ve been informed of their errors, often by the police, they don’t cease their vengeful, violent behaviour.
In Oregon, a man named Richard Bryan Smith filed a $150,000 lawsuit against his neighbours because they inflicted emotional distress on him after they incorrectly and publicly identified him as a sex offender (he shared the same last name as a real sex offender). Even after being told by the police that they were wrong, they put up posters of him in the neighbourhood. The stupid………it burns…….
Now, this statement truly interests me. Socrates was a pursuant of truth and knowledge. He was also condemned to death, for guilt by association. He also had the chance to flee, but did not.
He was the "victim" of the mob mentality, they just happened to be the lawmakers of that war-time.
Socrates’ trial is a good illustration of the mob mentality of a different sort – a mob that did not have wisdom or self-restraint, and were swayed by emotion and not reason. It illustrates the observation that most people at that time were not trained to make the decisions required of a just society.
There is something about reading, how an eleven year was raped so horrendously, that she required surgery, brings out the grrrowl within me.
There will always be people who are unable to be integrated into society. This includes child rapists. Paedophilia is incurable and has a high rate of recidivism. Paedophiles will always “misconstrue” what they think of as sexual behaviour in children, and therefore they can only be treated by training them to suppress their urges and reduce their fixation. I don’t think most of them can or should be re-integrated into society, so communities need to exercise great caution around them.
But that isn't vigilantism, if it is accordance with the current law.
In many ways Brazil is a developing democracy. The performance of their police is a good example of inadequate government control. I used Brazil as an example of what happens when there is such a profound disrespect for civil rights. The rule of law has been left to the discretion of each police officer – i.e. – they decide who is to be tortured and/or killed, and is therefore an example of vigilantism. Furthermore, as has been shown by way of Brazil’s crime rate, the vigilantism of the police is spectacularly ineffective.
We are entering the grounds, for some very thought-provoking, ethical questioning, and moral examination here.
I agree and it’s great Divagreen! Thank YOU!
Be well........ | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/26/2009 4:01:54 PM | Jail cells are meant for criminals like this, not trespassers, bad check writers, forgers, and shoplifters.
We only have so many jail cells. Let's keep these types in them forever.
Why do they get out after such a short amount of time?
I have heard of people who have written a couple of bad checks, or been caught with some marijuana, doing five or more years.
The D.C. madame killed herself because they were about to sentence her to seven years in prison, no parole! She arranged for prostitutes to meet customers!
The sentencing is crazy, rapists do a few years at most, but others who are hurting no one get handed long sentences. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/26/2009 4:18:34 PM | | If he did it, he deserved what he got. Kinda reminds me of the Nightmare on Elm street movies-how Freddy was a child molester so all the parents got together and burned him up. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/26/2009 5:00:20 PM | ^Yeah, and look what that started. He came back and tortured them in their dreams for 6 movies.
I don't exactly have a problem with vigilanteism as a concept. I just think it takes a certain type of person to carry it out in a way that does more good than harm. And unfortunately, most people that are drawn to vigilanteism do not seem to have this mentality. So they become dangerous rather than protective.
Basically, if you do not think like Batman, leave the crime fighting to the police. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:16:04 PM | I remember in college that a friend of mine from high school complained about how, a few days earlier, she was talking to me, face to face, standing in front of the student center, when "I" suddenly asked her "Who are you?"
It turns out that on campus, there was someone who looked enough like me that someone with good eyesight couldn't tell the difference from less than 2 feet away!
So, while IF the guy actually really did it, I wouldn't have much in the way of sympathy for him, I am opposed to the vigilantism because they don't know for 100% certain that he did it.
After all, what if, when all is said and done, it turns out that someone else did it, who happens to look VERY much like him? Close enough of a resemblance to fool someone face-to-face, as happened in college with my so-called "clone"? | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:27:32 PM |
After all, what if, when all is said and done, it turns out that someone else did it, who happens to look VERY much like him? Close enough of a resemblance to fool someone face-to-face, as happened in college with my so-called "clone"?
I suppose it's possible the culprit's identical twin could have committed the crime, seeing as how the evidentiary DNA was a match. So the question is now: Was he born alongside an identical twin?
If not, he's the guy. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:58:17 PM | Right, but, while I may have read through this a bit too quickly, did the mob of people who beat him up KNOW this? Or was he attacked prior to the DNA coming back?
If they basically shot first and asked questions later, how is it any different than actually having "vigilante justice" get the wrong guy? | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/28/2009 10:21:54 PM | I haven't read all 6 pages, but I'm going to say this for now. If I have any more I will add it later after have read.
I disagree with vigilante justice. I'm black and you know dam well what the history has been with vigilante justice and black people. Hundreds of innocent blacks lynched for things like whistling at white folks or just to share shit out of them. Whites favor that kind of justice for themselves when they need it but they are against it when others use it against them and what they may have done. They want their police to protect them but then blatantly go against their local community protection when they feel justice has not been served. This is one reason why I think whites in general really don't have a good idea of what justice really is. That's very reactive instead of proactive.
There nothing like remembering racial injustice to remind how real should be done. So maybe blacks and POC have an advantage in this area. Maybe that's why they are the first people you want to eliminate off the jury pool when you want to prosecute somebody. Too much compassionate for victims and more importantly - too much compassion for perpetrators.
The only people who should have been able to beat or kill that man was the parent of the child he raped. If they chose not too and give that authority over to hands of the police - so be it. Then the police and the justice system has a power and duty to hand out justice as it sees fit.
He's already served 6 years and has been out 2 months. Clearly being in a 'corrections' facility has not helped him, but back to jail he should go. It's too bad that you can't be given intensive therapy in jail or prison. Clearly he's f*cked up somewhere and jail is not helping. He will do this again when he gets out.
Sorry for the girl. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:06:30 AM |
Right, but, while I may have read through this a bit too quickly, did the mob of people who beat him up KNOW this? Or was he attacked prior to the DNA coming back?
If they basically shot first and asked questions later, how is it any different than actually having "vigilante justice" get the wrong guy?
I think something a lot of people are missing here is that this all takes place in a neighborhood. A neighborhood where people know each other and hang out regularly. I believe there's more to the story that isn't being talked about. When the two teens who spotted the guy were receiving their reward checks, they looked very embarrassed to be there and couldn't wait to leave. More than likely, they'd seen the guy walking up and down the street and were familiar with him - not as if he was some stranger who was only there at the time of the rape then again when he was spotted. I think once his picture was shown around, people knew exactly who they were looking for and were just waiting for him to be stupid enough to resurface.
The fact that he began to run once he realized people knew who he was was also a bit incriminating on his part. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:12:10 AM | | It's sad that no all neighborhoods are like this, And have people willing to take a stand against sick people like this guy. There is no other justice for people who commit these types of crimes. Ok, they go to jail, which YOU pay for, he eats 3 squares a day, which YOU pay for, he has tv, which YOU pay for, he has health care.. which YOU pay for, he has his wash done, his dishes cleaned, it goes on and on.. and WE all pay for it. Why? because the system is Phucked. Prisons should be self sufficient . Or force them all to join the infantry . Or bring back public hangings... the consequence is no longer a reason to fly straight. Its a home away from home. | |
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| Child rapist - beaten by neighbors
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:27:04 AM | ^Yeah, and look what that started. He came back and tortured them in their dreams for 6 movies.
You mean tortured us. Well, maybe not me personally, I only saw the first three (ugh! did just type that out loud?), but you know what I mean...
The only people who should have been able to beat or kill that man was the parent of the child he raped.
This is still, in the strictest sense, vigilante justice...
I think something a lot of people are missing here is that this all takes place in a neighborhood. A neighborhood where people know each other and hang out regularly.
This is the same thing that I was thinking...
I have mixed feelings on this topic. | |
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