| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 9:52:56 AM | Granted, some of these drugs help some people some of the time, but the majority seem to fail.
If a majority of treatments failed, do you think they'd still be used as treatments? Really?
There's a reason we don't use whirling chairs and lobotomies on the depressed anymore - it's because we've found a working treatment. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 9:56:21 AM |
If a majority of treatments failed, do you think they'd still be used as treatments? Really?
History is full of examples of the medical establishment continuing and enforcing treatments that do not have a high rate of success only because they don't have anything better to offer. So, yes, I believe that they would continue to give pills even though they know that the pills do nothing more than temporarily aleiviate some of the symptoms. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 10:00:05 AM | | If a medication helps people improve above chance levels (50%) in a battery of controlled trial, how is that not an important finding? If the side-effects are not extreme for a significant amount of people then the medication works and should be available to the broader public. It is why when you are in the midst of controlled trials with any kind of new medicine, treatment or intervention, and you notice your dependent variable improving at a statistically significant level you are required by law to administer the same treatment to your control group...even if you have not finished all your test trials. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 2:28:30 PM | hat's what was bad about it - the fact that it was totally unwarranted. If I knew what was causing it, I could have addressed it - instead, I felt like a ghost for no reason at all.
You missed my point completely. When you say it was "totally unwarranted" that makes no sense. What you're saying is that you didn't deserve it. That's silly. No one "deserves" to be depressed. That's not the point. You say if you knew what was causing it, you could have addressed it. That's what psychotherapy is for. Few if ANY of us have the awareness or insight into our own psyche to "fix" ourselves. Most people tend to externalize their problems - blame it on the wife, girlfriend, husband, boyfriend, the boss, the co-workers, the economy, the air, whatever. That's the norm. The reason it's the norm is because we can NOT see ourselves objectively. Few if any of us mortals have that ability. That's why psychotherapy is sometimes necessary. And please don't tell me that most shrinks have problems because that's irrelevant. Just because they have problems does NOT mean they can't help you with yours. That's a complete cop-out. What they do is to make you think about your actions, your patterns, how and why they started and why you're still doing them. People are simply not aware of themselves to the extent necessary to solve their problems. If life was only that easy.
I think it was either Jung or Freud who said we have three personalities - the person we THINK we are, the person others THINK we are, and the person we REALLY are and when all three of those are the same, then we have a healthy integrated personality. Ever hear the expression "none are so blind as those who refuse to see"? Where do you think that came from?
How many people do you know who fully understand themselves and what makes them tick and really have their s**t together?
The things you're experiencing were most likely caused before you were 5 or 6 years old. From that point in time, your personality and your "view" is molded. No one escapes these formative years and no one escapes their consequences either. No one can see and properly analyze their own behavior objectively. That's just not possible.
Now if a mental problem is a biological imbalance, some drug therapies may help and are necessary in order to get one through the tough times and shore up their psyche long enough to give them a chance to see what's going on a modify it. Yes, in some cases, drug therapy is necessary but not forever. Those drugs mask the problem. But that's why people drink alot of booze and take a lot of drugs - to mask the problem and make them feel good - a quick fix. But the quick fix is rarely the best/right one.
Understand I'm NOT putting you down for taking prescribed meds. What I'm suggesting is that there's a lot more to it than just taking something to make you feel good and I assure that everyone wants to feel good. Welcome to the human race.
If I knew what was causing it, I could have addressed it
THAT is my point. We're not aware of what's causing it, but drugs do absolutely nothing to make you aware of what's causing it. They only make the "it" seem to disappear from your consciousness. That's all they do. It's like taking an aspirin for a headache. It may alleviate the headache but does nothing to alleviate the stress that caused the headache to begin with. So, assuming there's no pathology for the headache, all the aspirin does is help you with the symptoms but do NOTHING to address the cause. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 2:42:14 PM | | It is possible that in some people nothing is 'causing' their depression, they may simply have a brain chemistry that doesn't work properly. These particular people would most likely need to remain on medication for their entire lives as brain surgery just isn't advanced enough. I do believe that these people would be the minority however. For most they somehow got themselves into a depressed state and therefore have the tools to get themselves out of it. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 2:52:06 PM |
They only make the "it" seem to disappear from your consciousness.
But... that's all I ever wanted! And I got it! As far as I'm concerned, it is a wonder drug. It restored my will to live, my drive to improve, it returned my confidence, and it helped me to stop obsessing about negatives and see the glory of being alive. My experience is hardly unique - millions of people have been helped in this way.
It is possible that in some people nothing is 'causing' their depression, they may simply have a brain chemistry that doesn't work properly. These particular people would most likely need to remain on medication for their entire lives as brain surgery just isn't advanced enough. I do believe that these people would be the minority however. For most they somehow got themselves into a depressed state and therefore have the tools to get themselves out of it.
I think this was the case with me. I really had no valid reason to feel the way I felt, and that frustrated me to no end. I mean, there's people out there getting raped, or abused, or god only knows what... and there I was, an average kid with a loving family, good home, great friends and no hardship whatsoever, and all I could think about was self-termination.
Went on AD for a few months, haven't looked back since. I fixed myself :) | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 2:54:39 PM | from Brandon:
Just curious...where do you get the audacity to say science lacks the knowledge to be prescribing these?
Read carefully, I wrote “science lacks the knowledge to be prescribing these drugs as common as they do” . You're taking partial phrases out of context and trying to argue with it. I know better than that. Nice try.
From Brandon:
Why does the number have to be 95% if 62% is significant?
In scientific standards, anything less than a 95% confidence is considered a null hypothesis.
From Brandon:
I think your trying to cast a disparaging cloud over the field of mental health professionals by talking of things you know nothing about.
Again, taking partial phrases out of context and trying to argue with it. There’s a lot more to mental health than psychiatry and psychology and I know plenty on the subject of neuroscience to know what I am talking about. Careful what you ass-u-me.
From Brandon:
Your citing of an observation between autism and schizophrenia is also totally unwarranted. And doesn't prove anything.
Really? 
http://www.sfu.ca/aq/features/brain_development_print.html
Oh OK. I guess if you say so? You know more than these people??? Oh, please do share. 
From Brandon:
There are different types of autism and different types of schizophrenia, all of which can look very different. There are also completely different neural, brain and genetic differences.
A manic episode is opposite of a depressive episode, what does that alone prove?
You're refefring to emotional opposition. I'm referring to genomic opposition. DNA can prove a lot.
From Brandon:
Mental health isn't voodoo, and to point to outliers as a typical case is ignorant.
No one said it was voodoo and ignorance was being applied to the fact science lacks enough knowledge for the medical field to be prescribing these drugs as common as they do .
Ignorance = lack of knowledge.
From hellgremlin:
If a majority of treatments failed, do you think they'd still be used as treatments? Really?
xzanthius answered the question nicely.
From hellgremlin:
There's a reason we don't use whirling chairs and lobotomies on the depressed anymore - it's because we've found a working treatment.
Yeah and science, in time will bring about a phase when we won’t be using Xanax, Prozac and Klonopin anymore for the same reason.
Science is about progression and building of knowledge. Nothing is permanent or exact.
From Brandon:
If a medication helps people improve above chance levels (50%) in a battery of controlled trial, how is that not an important finding? If the side-effects are not extreme for a significant amount of people then the medication works and should be available to the broader public. It is why when you are in the midst of controlled trials with any kind of new medicine, treatment or intervention, and you notice your dependent variable improving at a statistically significant level you are required by law to administer the same treatment to your control group...even if you have not finished all your test trials.
See my reply for 95% confidence. This doesn’t mean it’s not an important finding. It’s just not enough to be considered significant in scientific terms.
That warmed up my brain. Thanks... | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 4:47:31 PM | 1. You never stipulated in your original post the 95% was a "confidence level." To be picky: Good science says that the probability of your finding needs to be about 97.5% to 98%, and that isn't enough either; the majority of studies are also calculating effect size to make sure you didn't fudge your statistics by having a huge sample size, where any difference in groups would be significant. We both should have been clearer. If you give me 100 people taking a pill for schizophrenia, and 62 of them get better in a true experimental design, and you have a 97.5% chance this is significant...and you control for effect size, the pill should be on the market. Will everyone that takes it get better? Chances are you will get a lot of people who don't, but it has potential to help people. I think the problem is when people take a level of confidence that their result was 95% significant, as 95% of people taking the pill will get better.
2. The article you cited doesn't really prove much, and very little of it is about the project he is doing. "There are articles floating around about a recent observation between schizophrenia and autism...that they have some exact opposite traits to each other. This discovery opens the awareness that people with these conditions may have been misdiagnosed and therefore given treatment that could actually progress the 'disorder.'--->So one person has an inclination that the disorders need to be viewed differently at a genetic level, and all of a sudden we need to have this heightened awareness of how people were misdiagnosed? Do the treatments and interventions for autism still work? Do antipsychotics still help people exhibiting positive symptoms of schizophrenia? Even if this article was replicated over and over again, would it change the symptoms for diagnosis in the first place? I don't think it would.
Even if such a paradigm changing result was uncovered, like what is being investigated in the aforementioned article, would it suddenly stop people from treating their patients with the treatments they had long used to success? No. However, it might accelerate new treatments by giving one a clearer view of where the problem originates. Genetic susceptibility may be a great way to begin prevention programs at an early age for people, but it isn't going to answer the nature or nurture question that, despite audacious displays of certainty from the outliers in both camps, will continue to be tautological for many psychological conditions.
The beauty of science is we an have an ebb and flow of ideas. However, I think there is this postmodern idealization of subjectivity and skepticism that can take people to view science in extreme ways. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/24/2009 5:07:13 PM |
It is possible that in some people nothing is 'causing' their depression, they may simply have a brain chemistry that doesn't work properly.
You didn't read all of what I said. I also said
.... assuming there's no pathology....
But... that's all I ever wanted! And I got it!
Fine. Some people want to be cured and some don't. That's your choice. Some people are introspective enough to want to know WHY they're depressed. Some don't really care. Apparently you don't. That doesn't change anything we're talking about here. Hey, I'm glad you solved your problem but that alters nothing in the equation. I would be willing to bet a months salary that there was some trauma that you either blocked or forgot about that caused your depression. Again, absent any pathological reason for the problem, there's is, nine times out of ten, another reason for your depression. You may not be interested in finding out and that's all well and good but it doesn't negate the fact that it was there. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/25/2009 7:05:23 PM | It seems to me that antidepressants work for a very large amount of society suffering from depression to bipolar disorder. I have been depressed to some extent for several years now. Why is this happening I ask myself? It would seem that I am partly a victim of flawed genetics. Depression runs on my mother's side of the family and my grandfather suffered from it all his life. My Aunt is currently on antidepressants and they help her a great deal. Its hard to admit especially in a public forum that you are depressed. There is often a stigma that these people "cant handle life". Nothing could be farther from the truth. I dont want to feel this way and find it is effecting how effective I can be in collage. Psychotherapy does help but it has been proven in combination with antidepressants that a person is much more likely to recover. I wish all of you well and hope you are fit and happy.
Grey | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/25/2009 7:10:15 PM | It seems to me that antidepressants work for a very large amount of society suffering from depression to bipolar disorder. I have been depressed to some extent for several years now. Why is this happening I ask myself? It would seem that I am partly a victim of flawed genetics. Depression runs on my mother's side of the family and my grandfather suffered from it all his life. My Aunt is currently on antidepressants and they help her a great deal. Its hard to admit especially in a public forum that you are depressed. There is often a stigma that these people "cant handle life". Nothing could be farther from the truth. I dont want to feel this way and find it is effecting how effective I can be in collage. Psychotherapy does help but it has been proven in combination with antidepressants that a person is much more likely to recover. I wish all of you well and hope you are fit and happy.
Grey
Jesus Christ, a post about depression that isn't completely retarded. I think I've seen everything now.
Respect. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 6/26/2009 4:35:38 AM | I think more education on mental health issues and illness generally is required in all communities. The reality is that for some people antidepressants are the only alternative that is accessible to them rightly or wrongly. I don't believe that activity alone can make a difference although it would not hurt either.
I wonder however; how many of those people who are habitual alcohol drinkers and/or illicit drug consumers or consumers of legal drugs actually have mental health issues which are being numb by socially accepted consumptions. Cheers | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/2/2009 10:04:13 AM | | Thank you hellgremlin for me its just trying to find a way to deal with this problem. I think its naive of people to think that depression can be caused purely by situational or traumatic events. I lead a good life have family and friends that love me 100% and support me in everything I want to do. True I did just break up out of a five year relationship but there is a deeper cause to why I feel the way I do. Its kinda scary when you wake up one day and realize that you have been at a low point for quite awhile years evenand your not totally sure of the cause. Could be chemical could be an inherent defect in my genes. What is apparent is that psychotherapy does work and for the large percentage of depressed individuals antidepressants lessen the intense feelings and symptoms related with depression. I recently read that there are over 19 million depressed individuals in the United States alone. That doesnt even take into account the rest of the world and those that are not reporting being depressed. I wish that society, science, and medicine took this ailment more seriously and make efforts to research this debilitating illness and ways to help or cure it. Anyone else ever deal with or come to the realization that they have been dealing with long term depression? Thoughts and comments welcome. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/2/2009 5:41:36 PM | Bluesman... misunderstanding... I am in agreement with you that the vast majority of depressions are spiritual ailments. I heard someone define depression as being 'pregnant with oneself', meaning that this is a chance to honestly re-examing values, lifestyle, and direction in life. Disatisfaction breeds change. and perhaps a new birth.
Personally I am glad that I did not hospitalize myself when, in my teens, I was experiencing mental health issues. I needed to come to terms with and process what my mind was grappling with; disillusionment. I don't know how it would have turned out had I been labeled with something, given some pills, a brief explaination, and a new set of problems.
As for dealing with severe depression, sure, use pills if you have to, the most important thing is survive because there is tomorrow. Which is why one must look at other options, keep hope alive, I suggest something radical like joining a monastary, changing your diet, going on a pilgramage. I strongly believe that every illness, every hardship, every challenge, has a hidden gift, a chance for a new perspective on life, and chance to bring out some special quality.
Other than that, may the force be with you. Always. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/2/2009 6:52:38 PM | | Perhaps I could throw a little twist into this discussion. When people discuss anti-depressants, the usual course of conversation seems to be whether or not people should take them or not. How about we ask, "should there be a stigma attached to those that take anti-depressants?" | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/3/2009 12:09:42 AM |
I'm a biological organism and seek neurotransmitters and have since my birth. My brain doesn't know the different between synthetic and/or organic forms of such substances.
Anti-depressants aren't synthetic neurotransmitters.
Neurotransmitters are chemicals that allow brain cells (neurons) to communicate with one another. These cells do not physically touch one another and are separated by a small gap called a synapse. Neurotransmitters like serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine act kind of like ferries, bringing the message across the synapse. After the message is received, the neurotransmitters are recycled....sucked back into the cell from which they came, in a process called re-uptake. SSRI's (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Lexapro, etc) are Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors. They interfere primarily with re-uptake of serotonin , increasing the amount of neurotransmitters available in the synapse...the idea is that it improves communication of neurons. (Other types of antidepressants have different targets, but I'm using the well known SSRI's as the example).
While it is true that scientists don't yet understand quite why this often improves symptoms of depression, it definitely is a literal lifesaver for many people. They don't work for everyone, nor are the appropriate in all situations. I don't think they should be the first resort....obviously, not using pharmacueticals is preferable to putting someone on drugs...but when other methods fail or are not possible, meds are appropriate.
Please understand, they are not happy pills. For some, the results are nothing short of a miracle. But they don't MAKE you happy...they make happiness possible. They make functioning possible. They make living possible.
Clinical depression is a living hell. Truly, it is. We are not talking about being really down for a few days...we're talking about something far outside the realm of "normal" human emotions. An all-consuming darkness. Some of the symptoms actually are physical. Studies using new brain imaging technologies have shown striking physiological differences between typical brain function and that of chronically depressed patients.
I very much believe in the use of meds to relieve the suffering of mood disorders, but they are only part of the ideal treatment. This thread seems really divided into these two side of pro-meds, pro-lifestyle changes. But, the truth is, both sides are right. Exercise has been shown to work very much like anti-depressants. Medication, therapies, proper diet, exercise....they all factor in. But, until some of the symptoms are relieved, the clinically depressed person may not be capable of using any of those other tools. Sometimes, antidepressants allow enough improvement to begin working on therapy and lifestyle changes that were simply not possible before.
There are some things to understand about depression. It is quite disabling. There is a strong physiological component ... it is not a sign of weak-will or a character flaw. Each episode of depression makes it more likely that another will occur. Treatment can be highly effective. Heredity seems to play a big factor in vulnerability to the illness...but does not seem to be the cause itself. Antidepressants are generally prescribed for a minimum of 6 months.
On that note, it seems I have run out of things to say for the moment. Everything I've said here is based on experience and tremendous amounts of academic and personal research. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/3/2009 12:33:09 AM | | Chameleon Girl's explanation, especially being completely without judgment, is the best I've seen so far on this topic in the fora. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/3/2009 10:55:31 AM | In a book I intended to write before life got in the way, called the Never Ending War" I had two chapters planned for "dope doctors". Lets face it the biggest dope dealers are not cocaine cowboys on the corner, their MD's with a stake in the pharm companies. Until we get over the idea of panacea and better living through pharmacy lots of folks are going to be put on this stuff. btw when i first started in practice the sole criteria for being a psychiatrist involved an internship at a psych ward and a medical degree. in other words many of todays doctors are not even trained in psychology and dont know how to help people deal with depression. in addition the insurance companies dont want to pay for "talk therapy" which is not nearly as quick as putting someone on a drug and checking em every so often. As long as the current conditions exist all psych drugs will be over prescribed.  | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/4/2009 9:08:39 AM | You go Chameleon Girl. Thats the best explination I have seen on here so far. You have summed up my own experiances and research far better than I ever good. Huge kudos to you.
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/7/2009 3:32:16 PM | Hmmmm okay now this is very upsetting. My doctor recently decided to start me on an antidepressant after I reported feeling down, lethargic,and a general sense of apprehension about the future. First he threw one of the heavy hitters at me Pristiq. I had an absolutely horrible reaction extreme nausea, vomiting, tremors, and extreme restlessness. I told him this and he switched me to Citalopram( generic Lexapro I believe) this was even worse. I felt so bad I literally thought I was going to die on my own bathroom floor the side effects were so intense. Well apparently my doc is not a quitter because he switched me again to Cymbalta. Same effects but not as bad. Okay so those for dident work onto generic zoloft. I have bad nausea but no vomiting but no I still feel like crap and get intense headaches. And Zoloft is susposed to be one of the antidepressants with less side effects. What gives with all this? Maybe my body just can tolerate antidepressants period and thats why its rejecting them? Im confused now and kinda dont know what to do. I dont want to be depressed anymore but I just cant physically handle the side effects and how intense they are. Oh well I guess I will just keep trying until I hit upon something that works.  | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/7/2009 10:00:55 PM | I think drugs can be very dangerous.
Yet the human mind is always drugged up on it's own chemicals.
Though, I am totally against forcing drugs like these on children.
If you are an adult and think they will solve your problems, okay. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 7/7/2009 10:28:15 PM | | I used to date this girl that would take anti-depressants and I made her come to the gym with me and she started feeling feeling way better. More so than the pills would ever make her feel. Exercise and proper diet is my solution to depression, when I lack discipline and start to break from my routine the depression starts to sink in again. | |
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| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 9/17/2009 12:47:50 AM | | Yeah excercise is awesome,I took some anti-depresants one time and had a delightful sexual side effect/I'm gettin on em again methinks. | |
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Sannia
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Joined: 9/11/2009
Msg: 74 | |
| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 9/17/2009 11:41:00 AM | I agree with Funcuz.
When it's genetic, it needs the right medication.
When it's just a circumstantial depression, than it is best dealt with 'going through it'.
Only a psycho-pharmacologist and a person that knows him/her self very well can Judge. Awareness is critical. Finding an experienced pharmacologist is also critical.
An illness is an illness, not different than having kidney disease. A temporary mood change is just a temporary mood change.
It's all a matter of RIGHT DIAGNOSIS. And it is all Relative as well. | |
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Sannia
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Joined: 9/11/2009
Msg: 75 | |
| Thoughts and opinions on antidepressants
Posted: 9/17/2009 11:49:46 AM | and also: Antidepressant don't make people Happy. They make people able to function if it is a genetical imbalance in the brain. Major depression shows early on and lasts forever. One needs DISCRIMINATION.
The majority of people that get prescribed antidepressant don't need it. Yet a few of them would die without them.
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