| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 12:05:40 PM | I'm an atheist so the God(s) argument is meaningless to me. Besides all the Gods I've read about sent people to kill in it's name, so there goes that theory.
I'm a democrat, I believe in the death penalty and I would like to see it broadened to include child molesters/abusers and thieves. I believe in the right to bear arms too. I believe in the right to have birth control & abortions. I believe we are our brother's keeper and some things should be given to the poor by the rich, but there are limits and being too lazy isn't a good reason to get rather than give. I believe all children should have a parent at home raising them. I believe in universal health care but I'm not sure what's the best way to go about it or how to stop the rich from raping it or getting better care in some way that cheaps the rest of the people.
I think party lines are a bit bullshit and that it's fairly simple to know right from wrong and easy to do right, while wrong takes a lot of planning. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 12:07:44 PM | | Though I think you could make a case for the death penalty based on the Bible, the case for mercy is greater. Jesus intervened for a woman about to be stoned to death. He said they judged her correctly, but he showed mercy. Too bad that then governor of Texas, George W. Bush did not have this in mind in the case of Karla Faye Tucker. After finding her husband or boyfriend in bed with another woman, Karla took a pick-axe to them. While spending 2 decades on death row she had a religious conversion. Unlike many so called "conversions" this one seemed to be real. Everyone who knew her said she was a completely different person than the one who did the crime. Many religious leaders including the Pope tried to convince Bush not to execute her. Instead Bush went on the radio and mocked her pleas for mercy before he had her executed as planned. So much for mercy. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 12:12:07 PM | The execution is cheap. The appeals are expensive.
So...the ONLY appeals necessary are the actual guilt or innocence of someone. If guilty, then there IS no appeal. I offer Clifford Olsen as an example. Self admitted mass child murderer. Tried to "sell" the bodies of his victims back to the families so he could provide for his family. They never did find them all...he's keeping that information to himself.
Now, this guy is guilty...no doubt. He did return some bodies. The evidence is there, the knowledge that this person is guilty of murder, several times. No doubt. Yet...here he sits in a cell...fed three times a day (balanced nourishing meals), education priveledges, has all his medical and dental looked after, (far better treated than the working poor who have to decide between medication or food for the month!), and YOU have the nerve and gall to sit there telling me this guy has a RIGHT to life?
A life that is BETTER than many people who work for a living?
You are out of your mind. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 12:41:19 PM |
The question is "do you believe in the death penalty." It is obviously logical and rational to include one's faith in the personal decision of what he or she believes in. No one suggested that his belief applies to you... he is not "deciding" on an issue, he is expressing an opinion. His personally held beliefs on the subject are not an attack on you... so why the hostility?
I don't know why you think my response was hostile! But you are wrong if you think that the religious ideology of people don't affect those who do not share that ideology. Right now, the debate about abortion and stem cells is based mainly on religious beliefs.
The OP bases his decision on his belief in god: He asked for opinions and my opinion is that while he is entitled to his belief, it should have no bearing in a political arena. Am I not entitled to my opinion?
What, pray tell, would the point of the thread be if we all believed the same thing?
And yet you point out that by stating MY opinion and saying that I disagree with the OP that I am hostile?
Darlin, your issues are showing. How about you just express your own view of the death penalty instead of feeding into the delusion that strangers' thoughts on the matter are a direct assault to your beliefs?
Sweetie-pie, when someone makes remarks about religions that are only monotheistic, I feel obligated to let him/her know how short-sighted that is and that other beliefs do exist. Some people don't seem to think that polytheistic religions count for anything.
(see here I'm modeling for you how to respectfully disagree.)
I was not disrespectful--it is merely your opinion that I was. And you are certainly entitled to misread and misinterpret what I say and the intent behind it. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 12:57:48 PM |
I've read the Quran in its entirity, in English, and Arabic... God does not condone 'hate' killing in Islam.
Since I don't read Arabic, I can only go by translations, and I did not take these out of context:
Sura 002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html
004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: [. . .]if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: [. . .]but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html
And my personal favorite:
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - Sura 2 98:51
Of course, this last verse doesn't say to kill pagans, just that we are vile creatures.
but I also never inplied that you should think like me.
I will give you that, but at the same time, I bet you would like to see your preference put into place, eh? :) | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 2:12:27 PM | We have had 133 people .... on death row .... found to be " NOT GUILTY " since 1973 !! Thanks to DNA.
Which means we already have MURDERED at least one innocent !
And yet we still have the death penalty ????  | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 3:21:59 PM | I always wondered how a person could be uncomfortable with the death penalty, but have no problem with depriving another of their freedom and liberty, subjecting them to dehumanizing treatment and social conditions, and doing so entirely at the expense of the people the criminals offended ... only to release them, have them reoffend because no one wants to hire them, etc.
I personally would rather die than go to prison for any amount of time. Cause if I wasn't guilty going in, it wouldn't take that long to "correct" that "problem", prison life being what it is. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 4:06:18 PM | However, the Bible does preach the law of an Eye for an Eye, but it does not say anything about a Life for a Life.
Yes, but eye for an eye when not applied completely literally does translate to life for a life.
Of course if we apply it literally, it doesn't pertain to anything other than somebody poking out your eye. In which case I guess it becomes less of a lesson in reciprocation and more of a lesson in.... I don't know..... maybe wearing protective goggles.
Since his crime was eligible for the death penalty, and since he was convicted of the crime beyond the shadow of a doubt, then let the family decide whether he dies or spends the rest of his life in jail.
That's an interesting perspective. There might be something to that.
I don't believe that the death penalty necessarily deters anyone else from committing a murder, but it certainly ensures that that one person will not be committing any more.
This is pretty much my position as well.
(see here I'm modeling for you how to respectfully disagree.)
A word of advice. Condescension is not generally considered respectful.
I believe in the death penalty and I would like to see it broadened to include child molesters/abusers and thieves.
It has been explained in other threads why this would be a bad idea that would ultimately result in more innocent victims being killed.
We have had 133 people .... on death row .... found to be " NOT GUILTY " since 1973 !! Thanks to DNA.
Which means we already have MURDERED at least one innocent !
And yet we still have the death penalty ????
That's one way to look at it. Of course you could also look at it as thanks to DNA, we stand a much better chance of not repeating that mistake in the future. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 4:21:27 PM | | If you want god to do it, there are ways of attracting lightning, sharks, brown bears, any number of such things god made that would be more than happy to help. On the other hand, I think life in prison would be the answer if it was made much less than comfortable..... I guess I'm more of an eye for an eye kinda guy | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 4:22:42 PM | Your view only works if there is a God.
So what happens if there is no God? Oh right, most people don't tend to like to go there.
Right, so my thoughts:
It's a bit of a mix. Not sure if I really have a straight answer. Here's the deal, many people don't believe humans have the right to take a life, but keep in mind we also have the power to do so if we want.
Whose to say what we can and can't do? Many people believe we don't have the right to take a life because 0nly God should. We shouldn't play God. Or morals tell us taking a human life is wrong because humans have souls. Morals are subjective in the first place, and vary from person from person. We just assume that something such as "good" or "bad" is the same general guideline for everyone.
And since when is taking a life playing God? If we shouldn't play God then we should all become vegetarians and stop killing all the other animals eh? Oh right, only humans apply to the God logic.
Humans seem to have this weird sense of entitlement to God belonging to them and God would not want this or that. I find it hilarious that people think this, and that God belongs to them. Arrogant is it not?
Truth be told, from my view, there is no God and if there is a God we are not just his children, and everything that we see was not meant for us.
If we want to kill, then we have that ability. It should be used wisely. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 4:34:07 PM |
However, the Bible does preach the law of an Eye for an Eye, but it does not say anything about a Life for a Life
justification comes from the 14th Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Part of Section 1. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So if a State provides Due Process, the state can deprive any person of Life...if it so chooses | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 5:23:35 PM | | ..ok. then talk politics! ... and keep your god out of it. I agree that no-one should take a life, but you have stated that everything happens for a reason in the eyes of your god... ergo, your god chose for the victim to die by a violent hand... egro the murderers hand was forced by your gods will, they had no freewill. The conclusion... the murderer is a victim too. This isnt right is it?. I dont believe in a god. I am a product of NATURE. Your religious beliefs are your own, this is not a political question, but an ethical one. History books are lessons for the present and future. Read them, realise the terrble mistakes your country has made 'with god on our side'... not least putting men and women to death to find out later that they were innocent of the crime. There is no salvation, when you die you will be absorbed back into the greatest power on yjis earth... mother nature. As a Democrat... do you not wonder why that murderer Bush still lives a priviledged life? The greatest respect to you as a human being. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 7:28:54 PM | @OP:
You have made your point very well. It is certainly food for thought. It is hard to live with the guilt of someone else's blood on your hands. Of course, right now we know where we stand. But where would you stand if someone sadistically tortures and then kills one of your loved ones?
I had done jury duty a while ago. One of the cases was one where a young man had was going on trial for first degree murder. Before jury selection began, they made this young man stand up and face all of the people who might be picked to judge him and send him to jail for most, if not all, of his life. This youngster was 17 when he murdered another boy in cold blood after a fight on a basketball court. As this young man faced us, it hit me really hard. At this time he was already 19 but there was nothing hard in his look and certainly didn't look like a young man but a boy. This boy right now is the same age as my eldest son. I was not picked to serve on a jury and I was glad. But I did go home with a lot of questions in my head. What if it were my son that were murdered? What if it had been my son that had murdered someone?
It would take something really sadistic for the person to be sentenced to death. It is a question of what crime he committed. I see your argument and I also understand your stand on this subject. Just too many questions that will never be answered. One day you will have a strong view point against something and then when you have thought of it, your view changes.
True, God has the power of judgement----thou shalt not kill. The Bible also says that you should obey the laws of the land. If the punishment is going to fit the crime, isn't is important to help these people, who others deem unreachable, before they get themselves into that kind of trouble in the first place? The system shuffles the problem kids to group homes where they become worse and then come out and move into 'big time' crimes. Some of the people in charge and that supervise these youngster have a mindset ready to deal justice when they get out of hand. Others are not prepared to deal with these kids. On a segment on 20/20 several years ago, the topic was about sexual predators and child molesters. One inmate, who was interviewed, went onto say that he was in favor of castration because the programs in jail don't really help the situations that landed him in jail (he sexually molested his girlfriend's son). He also stated that they are often left there to fulfill their jail sentences and their 'debt' to society and all the while they are waiting to be released that they are really devising plans of doing the crime better so that they don't get caught the next time. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/7/2009 10:04:15 PM | I like Israel's capital punishment. It is something that needs to exist because there are some monsters who absolutely deserve it. Their capital punishment has only been utilized once in the state's 61 years of existence. The one person they executed was someone who's crimes were so heinous that one could defend him. Plus, no one can rationally argue his innocence. That man they executed was Adolph Eichmann (after they snatched him from Argentina). I don't think anyone can argue that the monster deserved any level of leniency.
Basically get rid of the death penalty as it is usually applied as there is the chance that you execute an innocent man. However, keep it for the Timothy McVeighs and Osama Bin Ladens of the world. | |
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pla*ce
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Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 45 | |
| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/8/2009 1:21:08 AM | forget the bible let use examples
a few years ago in Calgary,alberta, Canada
a idiot took a 7 years old girl ,raped her and used a cord to extangle her and threw her
body by some bushes
if you were her Mother/Father what would you do
keep that idiot in jail and reabilitate him or would you like to see him dead
do you think that idiot will change ,if he raped and kill a little girl he will not change
not matter how long he stay in jail
dead penalty is the only oction that would correct the killer
many women had been killed by their partners without thinking they were human as
they think they are,normaly the killers say they are sorry for what they did
my step father was killed by my uncle and his tho sons ,
to this days only one of his sons still is alive and is very scare to go back to his land,
he knows the his day will come sooner or later
my dilema is if you kill because of hate or to cover your crimes you have to be killed
having a killer in jail is a business
many people have to employed to take care of them
the corruct judges are making a lot of money having them in court
the lawyers make a lot of money defending them
the police is keep busy looking for them
the woking people have to pay more taxes to employ the law enforcers
that money could be used to plant more trees and save the inviroment | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/8/2009 1:47:06 AM | "If you kill somebody in Texas, we will kill you back" hahaha
"Some states are trying to outlaw the death penalty...my state's putting in an express lane." hahaha (If more than two people saw you commit the crime you go straight to the front of the line).
Gotta love Ron White and my Texas. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/8/2009 1:57:42 AM | Texas is prime example of the lack in deterrent value of the death penalty.
Texans obviously have too big of an ego to realize that something is majorly amiss in their state. And it ain't the death penalty. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/8/2009 2:35:29 AM | "Gross State Product
The Texas gross state product (GSP) for fiscal year 2007 was $1,116.81 billion in current dollars, according to the Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts. If Texas were a nation, its economy would rank as the tenth largest in the world by Gross Domestic Product, according to the latest 2007 Comptroller's estimates. Since the 1986 recession, the Texas economy has been steadily diversifying.
International Trade
In 2007, for the sixth year in a row, Texas was ranked as the number one state by export revenues. Texas exports for 2007 totaled $168.16 billion, which is approximately $17.3 billion more than 2006 and represents an 11.45 percent increase"
I think we're just fine, thank you very much. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/8/2009 4:25:00 AM | That 86 dollars you are quoting is after 12 to 15 years of court battles that can come into the millions of dollars so the cost to society is considerably more than you seem to believe.
What about all the innocent people that have been executed? What if it was you on death row and you are innocent?
I would rather get rid of the death penalty than kill somebody innocent. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 6/8/2009 6:56:58 AM | Ok.. test time here... how many of you posted on the sabbath?
What does that have to do with anything...
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Dont judge Texas on Ron White or any othe blowhard...
Texas has a fair and ballanced Legal system...I enjoy a peacefull and safe city, due to the traditions of Texans and a no-nonsence Legal system...and to dedicated Law enforcement...
Texas has executions because We as Texans want it and it is Protected by the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution... | |
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