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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/10/2009 11:02:24 AM |
At best, capital punishment is state sanctioned revenge and at worst state sanctioned murder.
If you dont like the Constitutuion, change it.
Dont argue a point and expect me to change the law. you get like minded people and change the law. right now, abortion is legal, death sentance is legal...so if you want to call it murder, knock yourself out. but that doesnt change the law. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/11/2009 8:04:08 PM |
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
Since Florida allows for a Death Sentance, and The Constitution allows States to preform executions, this is Legal and not in the legal sence murder.
it's funny how this nation belives that if the country sanctions something it is ethical and/or legal, as in capital punishment not being considered murder, in the "legal sense" that is....
the same country that sanctioned slavery-
in time slavery was considered an abomination by this nation, which it is/was
I believe when/if humans ever truly become civilized, the death penalty will be considereed an abomination also, which it is, and it will cease to be legal, therefore making it murder, which it is, it's just our "civilized" country doesn't realize it yet- | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/11/2009 8:26:13 PM | | I wouldnt consider ourselves Civilized if we do away with Death as a Penalty. I would consider ourselves Civilized when we as a people stop Kinapping, raping, and Killing our children...Or stop killing in cold blood our Law enforcment Officers...Or robbng and killing a store Owner over 12 Dollars. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/11/2009 9:00:56 PM |
I wouldnt consider ourselves Civilized if we do away with Death as a Penalty. I would consider ourselves Civilized when we as a people stop Kinapping, raping, and Killing our children...Or stop killing in cold blood our Law enforcment Officers...Or robbng and killing a store Owner over 12 Dollars.
there will always be evil in our country
it is unfortunately, part of our nature
for some, they can control it
others can't, or won't, or don't care to...
they will never meet my definition of civilized
( I am not suggesting that those mentally ill fall into this category)
the government which has charge over us , should always act in a civilized manner, it should be held to a higher standard and therefore should be above murdering those that murder others | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 5:21:45 AM | | Well, in my opinion, some people really are too far gone to ever hope to return to society. Something in my gut says to muderlize the b@stard, but then I ask myself, why? If you could hold them in prison for the rest of their life, at least they're out of the public's hair, right? Besides, there's always the off chance that they could be falsely convicted. How would you feel about the death sentence if you were on death row for something you didn't do? I'd be thankful for life in prison in comparison... Then again, perhaps this is not the majority view, anyway. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 7:25:52 AM | I am for the death penalty. When someone is convicted of such a heinous crime that would warrant the death penalty, that person is a definite threat to society, and if they ever find their way back into society they will surely pick up where they left off. What would happen if Charles Manson was set free? There are enough weak-minded people out there who would gladly join his new band of murderers, yet on this very day someone has started a new thread suggesting California should set him free. Surely the thread was started in jest and will be short-lived but anything is possible.
The contention that life without parole is just as good a safety measure to protect society just doesn’t hold water in my opinion. Who can guarantee this person will never see freedom again? Who’s to say the SCOTUS may someday rule that everyone deserves parole? Stranger things have happened and will happen in the future given the ever-changing makeup of the courts and congress.
I don’t think of the death penalty as a deterrent for future heinous crimes committed by other criminals. Does anyone think a criminal is going to stop and think about which crimes they can commit and which ones they cannot based on the death penalty?
The thinking that the death penalty is a deterrent or an eye for an eye is not the reason it should be used. It is the only way to rid society of this criminal who knows right from wrong yet chooses to commit these crimes anyway. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 7:33:38 AM |
The thinking that the death penalty is a deterrent or an eye for an eye is not the reason it should be used. It is the only way to rid society of this criminal who knows right from wrong yet chooses to commit these crimes anyway.
that's what incarceration is for. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 9:47:36 AM | "First, I feel that prisons should not be for punishment, they should be for rehabilitation."-Cultured
Well put. Prisons as a system should be used to make society a better place. Although if something happens to someone dear to you, you are not going to want to hear about the offenders issues or trying to make him a better person. You will want revenge, which is natural, but not (in my eyes) just.
I believe the old saying goes, "Two wrongs don't make a right." | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 10:05:49 AM | the government which has charge over us , should always act in a civilized manner,
No, "WE" are the Government and at any time we wish to change the fact that we give the penalty of death, then the People can change that law. As of right now, we the People through each State's Legislature decides wether their State preforms the Death Penalty. Timothy Mcveigh, after he Murdered all those babies in Oklahoma was sentenanced by a Federal Court to be executed. .
there will always be evil in our country
it is unfortunately, part of our nature
for some, they can control it
others can't, or won't, or don't care to.
You are right there will always be evil in our country...And I want to see the people like McVeigh are Punished for their crime. And send a message to all others, The same awaits you. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 11:09:19 AM |
And you can guarantee without a doubt these criminals will never ever be set free? I don't think so.
the only thing guaranteed in life is a physical death. there is no guarantee that criminals of the violent sort will stay locked up forever. any kind of determined criminal will try and get what they want, no matter what, even a jailbreak. if they want out, they'll figure out a way. but one has to hope facilities are secure enough for that not to happen. we can only hope. but death isn't the solution to the doubt. even if their sentencing doesn't put them behind bars long enough, let's say they do get out. most likely they wouldn't be physically capable of heinous crimes anymore if it's a long sentence. plus people would know who he/she is. in that case, knowledge is power depending on if they're violent or non-violent offenders. you gotta apply street justice into the equation too. same way a determined criminal will commit their crimes, a vengeful person will exact their revenge. lotta variables in play when considering the justice system. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 1:58:59 PM | Lots of interesting points of view in this thread.
I don't think the death penalty should be about revenge, nor justice, nor fulfillment of Bible teachings. It should be about one thing: Ridding society of a threat and the likelihood of a repeat performance. Killing a violent offender will not bring back their victim(s). It will, however, ensure that the offender won't be around to do the same to others.
As for the arguments about innocent people on death row, if an offender is killed DURING the commission of a crime, then there is little question of their guilt and there is little chance of slick lawyers using loopholes and technicalities. to get them off. The death penalty and legal system failings all begin when someone yells, "Stop or I'll shoot." and it all goes downhill from there. (In most cases, there is absolutely no "rule" that says you have to warn someone before blowing them away. If they are about to commit a capital crime, it's allowable to dispatch them with no warning whatsoever. That's just a TV/movie cliche.)
The mentality of victims/witnesses running away and later giving a description only to have police pick up the wrong guy who is later convicted is the flaw in the wrongful conviction case. If the rightful killer is "executed" on the spot as he's found committing the crime, it would prevent wrongful convictions. That rarely happens because our society is one of "Let someone else take care of the problem.".
I had the opportunity to purge society of one piece of scum as he repeatedly lunged toward my partner with a knife sporting a 9-inch blade. He had intentionally set us up for an ambush in a 6 x 10 foot, trash-filled room in a large underground parking garage. As first my partner got there, then myself, my gun and flashlight ended up about 4 inches from his left temple. But each time he lunged, he'd stop and never crossed an imaginary line I had mentally drawn in my sight picture. If he had, there is absolutely no doubt he would've been dead 27 years ago. I felt I had all the justification to shoot him where he stood, but my partner kept saying, "No...He'll give up...He'll drop the knife."
Instead, after over a dozen warnings, a lengthy standoff and then a hard physical fight we finally took him into custody. A defective judge totally dismissed the case because it was a chef's knife, not an assault on police with a "weapon". A month after the original incident, he killed a man by stabbing him in the back with another chef's knife (as the victim stood using a urinal). Obviously it was his cutlery of choice. He stated he killed the guy because he wouldn't give him a dollar.
In my mind, if the identical thing happened again, I would save the courts and penal system a lot of time and money, and save another truly innocent person their life. By now, this societal defect is out walking the streets again, unless he killed again or has been killed himself.
Maybe when he catches up with you, you'll change your mind on this subject - if you live. There are some who have absolutely no redeeming qualites whatsoever - and they walk freely amongst us, committing unwitnessed crimes until finally caught or better - killed themselves. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 5:50:47 PM |
Serial killers, serial rapists, serial pedophiles.... If there's absolute proof beyond a shadow of a doubt....... Hang 'em high.
Problem solved.
yeah well... "absolute proof". there's a major problem.
from the Columbia Law School Review of the US Death Penalty study in 2002:
" Two of every three death sentences in the United States are so flawed that a court overturns them." | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 6:40:12 PM | supporters of the death penalty always point to McVeigh
McVeigh, who admitted to the crime and there was no doubt that he did the crime
but this isn't how things in the penal system usually go-
number of people executed since 1976
1036
death row inmates exonerated since 1973
123
number of exonorations just since 2003
21
for every 8 people executed in the US during this period-
one has been exonerated
http://www.amnestyusa.org/uploads/file/Innocence%20and%20Exonerations%20in%20GA.pdf
I will never support the death penalty
with odds of 1 out of 8 times we put the wrong person to death
it's society wanting blood and turning a blind eye to true justice
for the 1 in 8 who are comdemned to die wrongly-
society wants to sacrifice their lives because we want to get the McVeigh's-
how sad | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 7:35:25 PM | I think people who believe in the death penalty should do the killing themselves.
If they are comfortable with being a murderer, so be it.
When you ask a person who supports the death penalty whether they will pull the switch or administer the lethal injection, often their iron-clad belief waivers.
They want it done, but not by their hand. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/12/2009 8:59:27 PM | | Whatever happened to firing squads? Get a few hooded guys, give them each a rifle, load one up with a bullet and the rest with blanks and have them all shoot at the criminal at the same time. None of them know who actually shot the fatal bullet so none of them are responsible. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/13/2009 12:05:55 AM | ^^^ Cool. Just so you know you'll have to deal with the consequences of that action.
I personally don't believe I have the right to take ANYONE'S life, especially as I'm pointing the finger and accusing them of some moral wrong doing. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
Besides, I think living with what someone has done is far worst than freeing them from it with death.
Whatever happened to firing squads? Get a few hooded guys, give them each a rifle, load one up with a bullet and the rest with blanks and have them all shoot at the criminal at the same time. None of them know who actually shot the fatal bullet so none of them are responsible.
Save me from flawed logic. Actually, one of them will definitely be responsible ( or more, depending on how many bullets it took to actually kill the person) they just won't know which one (or ones). | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/13/2009 12:31:05 AM | Ameera, yes, SOMEONE will have pulled the fatal trigger, but responsibility diffuses in a crowd. Check it out. Do you work in a public place?
Would the phone be answere faster with 4 people standing by it, none of whom were specifically there to answer phones, or with 1 person, not there specifically to answer it, standing by it when it rang?
People always diffuse responsibility. That is why you always dictate a task to the smallest group that can possibly get it done on schedual. It saves resources and insures the best quality of work.
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As to it being wrong to take someone's life because they killed another--that isn't why we are killing them. It isn't about "punishment", per-se. It is about ridding society of someone who fits in SO BADLY that they have destroyed the lives of others--and would continue to do so--if they were allowed to live. It is about protecting the freedom and life and limb and well-being of others, and not forcing us to pay for that person to be fed/housed/clothed for half a centurt to the tune of almost $30,000 a year of OUR money. They will not kill a criminally insane person. Ergo, if you are sane, you know what you did WILL QUITE POSSIBLY get you put to death--and you still did it. Well, you knew the price and it was worth it--you still made the purchase, and I still side withthe man at the register who takes the fee. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/13/2009 11:26:22 AM | Ameera, yes, SOMEONE will have pulled the fatal trigger, but responsibility diffuses in a crowd. Check it out. Do you work in a public place?
Would the phone be answere faster with 4 people standing by it, none of whom were specifically there to answer phones, or with 1 person, not there specifically to answer it, standing by it when it rang?
People always diffuse responsibility. That is why you always dictate a task to the smallest group that can possibly get it done on schedule. It saves resources and insures the best quality of work.
Have you ever read Scott Peck's People of the Lie?
He devotes a chapter to what he coins as Collective Evil; it is when an act of evil is allowed to occur because groups of people deflect blame and responsibility.
He describes in the Chapter Entitled Mylai: An Examination of Group Evil a task force entitle "Troop Force Barker" wasdeployed during the Vietnam War to find Vietcong soldiers in a search-and-destroy mission. The hastily thrown together task force had not achieved any success in the proceeding month. They proceeded to MyLai, what was believed to be a Vietcong stronghold, only to find women and children and old men, all unarmed - no soldiers whatsoever. No one fired on them.
Peck writes, "Some of the things that then happened are unclear. What is clear, however, is the troops of C Company killed at least somewhere between five and six hundred of those unarmed villagers. These people were killed in a variety of ways. In some instances troops would simply stand at the door of a village hut and spray into it with rifle fire, blindly killing those inside. In other instances villagers, including children, were shot down as they attempted to run away. The most large-scale killings occurred in the particular hamlet of MyLai 4. Lt. William L. Calley, Jr. herded villagers into groups of twenty to forty or more, who were then slaughtered by rifle fire, machine gun fire or grenades. . . The killing took a long time. It went on through the morning. Only one person tried to stop it. He was a helicopter pilot, a warrant officer, flying in support of the search-and-destroy mission. Even from the air he could see what was happening. He landed on the ground and attempted to talk to the troops, to no avail. Back in the air again, he radioed to headquarters and superior offiers, who seemed unconcerned. So he gave up and went about his business."
Peck was appointed as Chairman of a committee of three psychiatrists appointed by the Army Surgeon General to make recommendations that might shed light on the psychological causes of MyLai, to help prevent it from happening again. The research proposed however was rejected -- and perhaps that's why we had Abu Ghraib scandal recently -- They said that the findings might prove embarrassing.
Peck goes onto say, in a a subtitled portion of the chapter entitled: Preface to Group Evil
Triggers are pulled by individuals. Orders are given and executed by individuals. In the last analysis, every single human act is ultimately the result of an individual choice. No one of the individuals who participated in the atrocities of MyLai or in their cover -up is blameless. Even the helicopter pilot- the only one brave enough and good enough to attempt to stop the massacre-- can be blamed for not reporting what he saw beyond the first echelon of authority."
The idea that responsibility diffuses in a crowd is a fallacy. Peck talks about specialization, which is when a group attempts to deflects responsibility by referring the responsibility to another portion of the group. Peck says, "Whenever the roles of individuals within a group become specialized, it becomes both possible and easy for the individual [or individuals] to pass the moral buck to some other part of the group. In this way, not only does the individual forsake his conscience but the conscience of the group as a whole can become so fragmented and diluted as to be nonexistent."
If we are witness of some wrong doing and do nothing; if we participate; if we know of the wrong doing and do not tell, we are responsible.
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As to it being wrong to take someone's life because they killed another--that isn't why we are killing them. It isn't about "punishment", per-se. It is about ridding society of someone who fits in SO BADLY that they have destroyed the lives of others--and would continue to do so--if they were allowed to live.
If this was actually the motivation behind the death penalty; if this was actually true than how can we justify the institutions we allow to flourish who are designed to destroy the lives of others continuously, such as for instance the tobacco industry?
Or how about people who destroy the lives of others, not through death, but through abuse, greed -- why are they given a pass?
I suggest that this is not the basis behind the death penalty.
My personal feeling is that we individually and collectively do not have the RIGHT to end another's life. And if we do so, then we are guilty of murder and can also be deemed to be unfit to live in society. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/13/2009 11:34:43 AM |
As to it being wrong to take someone's life because they killed another--that isn't why we are killing them. It isn't about "punishment", per-se. It is about ridding society of someone who fits in SO BADLY that they have destroyed the lives of others--and would continue to do so--if they were allowed to live.
If this were true, the pro-death crowd would support "life without parole" for murder. It keeps the murderer off the streets, protects the public, and is cheaper than then death penalty. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/13/2009 3:08:08 PM | Seems to me that in most states the Governor can commute any criminal sentence, including one for Murder or otherwise grant a release from custody. Practically speaking, the maximum most will spend behind bars is no more than 20 years with the exception of the most outrageous or highly publicized cases.
"Life without parole" is never a 100% sure thing because of the loopholes that exist. I don't think it's any cheaper than the death penalty. If you're talking about court time and endless appeals, there are those doing life who are going through the very same steps, building up the very same expenses. In that sense, it's no cheaper, except for the $2.00 in chemicals it takes to carry out the death sentence. The lifer will go on and on and on...How is warehousing all of these scum cheaper?
Every year without them is another year of savings. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/13/2009 3:40:10 PM | I think people who believe in the death penalty should do the killing themselves.
If they are comfortable with being a murderer, so be it.
When you ask a person who supports the death penalty whether they will pull the switch or administer the lethal injection, often their iron-clad belief waivers.
They want it done, but not by their hand.
This is a bogus arguement, there is no blood thirst, no glee, and no party feeling to executions. but even legal executions are difficult for the executionor. many are replaced as a Juror is. if you had someone sit on a jury in a Heinous murder case after heinous murder case, that juror would melt down, even though he's doing his civic duty, their psyche could only take so much.
I believe I do have the temperment to carry out a sentance of death. but I dont thnk I would want to make it my Profession. | |
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| Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 7/13/2009 3:44:37 PM |
If this were true, the pro-death crowd would support "life without parole" for murder. It keeps the murderer off the streets, protects the public, and is cheaper than then death penalty.
Last time I checked, a good JHP .45ACP round ran around $.75 a piece.
I am more a fan of less filibuster, fair trial, decision, execution of decision, very timely manner. | |
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