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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?      Mod Threads Home login  
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 Author Thread: Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
 wudger

Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 176
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 7:37:17 AM
hahah, well following that line of thought on Jesus's teaching there will be about 15 people left alive in the US, assuming the adultery is grounds for the death penalty as that proposes.



me, I'll stick with the ten commandments. Thou Shalt Not Kill. if god had meant Thou Shalt Not Murder he would have said so.
 ChinaShopBull

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 177
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 8:02:54 AM

hahah, well following that line of thought on Jesus's teaching there will be about 15 people left alive in the US, assuming the adultery is grounds for the death penalty as that proposes.



I hope that's not all you brought away from reading that.



me, I'll stick with the ten commandments. Thou Shalt Not Kill. if god had meant Thou Shalt Not Murder he would have said so.



That's assuming the translation to kill is the correct translation, as murder is a close relative in meaning. In context with all the God sanctioned killing in the bible, I think (And many religious scholars do as well) that the correct translation is "Though shalt not commit murder."
 wudger

Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 178
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 8:39:37 AM



That's assuming the translation to kill is the correct translation, as murder is a close relative in meaning. In context with all the God sanctioned killing in the bible, I think (And many religious scholars do as well) that the correct translation is "Though shalt not commit murder."


one looney web page is not "many religious scholars" and interpreting what god "really" meant is more than tad presumptuous.

if we are talking mistaken translation then all bets are off.

we can now go with "do unto others before they do unto you". its so much more morally convenient and very close to the translation.
 ChinaShopBull

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 179
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 9:10:25 AM

one looney web page is not "many religious scholars" and interpreting what god "really" meant is more than tad presumptuous.


Not just "one looney page." Here are text from many different bibles. Some say kill. Some say murder. That implies that there is at least an argument as to what the correct translation should be.

http://bible.cc/matthew/19-18.htm
 SAguy_06

Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 180
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 9:26:02 AM
I'll stick with the ten commandments. Thou Shalt Not Kill. if god had meant Thou Shalt Not Murder he would have said so.


the only problem is you didnt give a punishment for killing, or maybe the 10 Commandments didnt...

What should be the punishment for breaking the commandment of Thou shalt not kill?

or does man have the right to assign punishment, or do we wait till each man is judged before God?
 chris755

Joined: 2/21/2009
Msg: 181
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 5:23:19 PM
It's funny that some quote the book (the bible)

This is a book that spawned the many crusades where people were put to death on the way to the holy land. convert or die!
That spawned the Salem which hunts
That was the main thrust of enforcement of the Spanish inquisition.
it is book that preaches intolerance that spawns hatred for gays
(just because god hates them doesn't mean you get too)
This is the book the kkk uses as it's basis to spew their hate.
Many a black person were killed because people felt they were doing gods will.

but when it comes to punishing criminals
or priests for that matter the phrase is uttered thou shalt not kill

NO OTHER BOOK HAS CAUSE AS MUCH BLOOD SHED AS THE HOLY BIBLE.
Satan could only hope he has a death count as high!

The act of using the bible as a reference to whether or not the death penalty is moral or not is absurd.

And though i understand most arguments most are making here
i clearly do not respect them.

to address Mikezt post 174 your argument is the only one that makes sense.


How do you feel about the many innocent people that have been put to death via mistakes even in the days of genetic evidence.


People are not sentenced to death for jay walking and i personally feel is should only be used when it is a clear case. I don't know if we have the technology for that yet but i think we are heading in the right direction.
My thoughts on the innocent:
if you are wrongly executed and you are innocent and your right with god then you get a front row ticket to the promise land.
The innocent dieing is only tragic if there is no heaven and this life is all we have which then takes religion out of the equation when it comes to punishment of capitol murder.
I love throwing that out there as it will drive the bible people nuts.
 Mikezt

Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 182
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:38:29 PM

People are not sentenced to death for jay walking and i personally feel is should only be used when it is a clear case. I don't know if we have the technology for that yet but i think we are heading in the right direction. ....


Doesn't much matter what you're (falsely) accused of, if you're dead. And as an atheist, what the bible says is of little meaning to me.

Unless we can read minds I don't think we'll ever have the technology to prove guilt in ALL cases. There will always be a case that is on the edge. But who decides what's a clear case and what isn't. There lies the problem. The only solution is to not put anyone to death.
 arwen52

Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 183
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:49:26 PM
I'm completely opposed to the death penalty.

It makes us *all* guilty when our government puts people to death on our behalf.

It brutalizes our society when we kill people.

Are there people who have committed heinous crimes? Yes. Should they be imprisoned for the rest of their lives? Yes.

Are there innocent people who have been convicted of murder? Yes. If we kill them, we are then guilty of killing an innocent person. That person could be you or someone you know.

I don't think this is about the bible. The bible is not the law of our land. It is about being civilized.

Life in prison: yes. Capital punishment: no.
 edisto

Joined: 6/30/2009
Msg: 184
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:56:36 PM
I don't give a rat's arse what the bible says about anything
I live in secular- America
that means that the laws here have nothing to do with religious doctrine

funny-
when I was growing up
and forced to attend church
the scriptures and commandments used the wording "thou shall't not kill"
but today,
to justify eating meat, war, the death penalty- etc
the wording has changed to "thou shall't not murcer"
so christians can rationalize
death, death and more death
how...............
uh, convenient
 monalee1

Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 185
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 7:32:59 PM
hi... how about thou shall not kill/murder in the most selfish sense of the word... if death is the consequence for murder then is that selfish....many people die without knowing their time but a lawbreaker has time to repent.. perhaps God in His Wisdom allows for earthly death as wake up call to the reality of Eternal death or maybe to remove a sinner from doing more harm, neither is selfish... as a nurturing woman I can hardly be the one to pull the switch yet I am sure others could do it in the name of justice.... if a lawbreaker repents b4 the death penalty then good his soul is saved..if the innocent are wrongly taken well there is a God Who Rights all wrongs so good his soul is saved... the bible says ~what does it profit you to gain the whole world if you lose your soul~...I doubt when everything is said and done that any person who finds themself in Eternity is going to complain to God .. in the same token I do not have any doubt that anyone who faces Eternal death chose it for themself... God has not changed between the Old Testiment and The New, nor have His Laws, They Govern The Universe... there is another saying ~ fear not those who can kill the body but fear God Who Can kill both body and soul~ I think that if people had more of a healthy fear in regards to the consequences of their choices, their actions would reflect that and the results would be better for everyone... many blessings
 ChinaShopBull

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 186
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 8:30:40 PM

I don't give a rat's arse what the bible says about anything
I live in secular- America
that means that the laws here have nothing to do with religious doctrine

funny-
when I was growing up
and forced to attend church
the scriptures and commandments used the wording "thou shall't not kill"
but today,
to justify eating meat, war, the death penalty- etc
the wording has changed to "thou shall't not murcer"
so christians can rationalize
death, death and more death
how...............
uh, convenient


My support of capital punishment has nothing to do with Christianity. I'm not religious. There are a lot of Christians who do not support the death penalty either.

I've always found it odd that many people, who do not condone the putting to death of convicted murderers (Yes, I understand that sometimes someone is wrongly convicted.), have absolutely no problem with the wholesale slaughter of 100% innocent children through abortion. I know some would like to turn that around on people who do support the death penalty, but not abortion; but, it's not the same distinction. No wrongfully convicted murderer is killed on purpose and with full knowledge of what is being done. (If he/she is, those responsible should also be up on charges.)

Some argue that capital punishment isn't a deterrent to murder being committed. Maybe that's true on some level. I don't know, but it sure cuts down on repeat offenders.
 chris755

Joined: 2/21/2009
Msg: 187
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 8:50:22 PM
Mikezt i can respect your view on it....even though i am not an atheist but im not nessessarly a traditional practitioner of religion.

If your against the death penalty because of the innocent being put to death by accident then your augment is against the system not the death penalty. Sadly our judicial system is corrupt with their own agendas at times but say the system gets fixed. (not an easy task if it is even possible,who knows)

i know we will never have the tech to prove ALL cases 100% but what if we could prove some cases 100%.

In those cases that can be proven i say their rights are forfeit by their own doings and the ones you can't prove 100% then you either set them free or warehouse them...

but anyone who thinks a life sentence is not cruel or unusual punishment is fooling themselves. Being locked in a room no bigger than the average bathroom for the rest of your life sounds no crueler than loosing your life. (though i know dead is dead and it gets no worse)

The fact is that the world is a brutal place and it is dictated by those who are willing to use force.
Most people do not obey the law because they are good people they do so because there will be a cost if they don't.(and the cost of no seat belt in NC is 100.00)

If the criminals were allowed to run wild they would and we would be left to hide and pray that we would be spared their rampages.
 happy-go-lucky_

Joined: 7/21/2009
Msg: 188
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 11:59:00 PM
I'm firmly opposed to the death penalty. Frankly, the posters who say they're generally opposed, but the heinousness of a crime makes them waver, scare me a great deal too, and not just the criminals.

The maximum allowable punishment should be life in prison, but frankly, I'm appalled by the inhumane conditions prevalent in most penitentiaries--we need to look long and hard at ourselves as a society and try to find ways to make the prisons abuse and crime-free as much as humanly possible.
 SAguy_06

Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 189
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 6:37:46 AM

The maximum allowable punishment should be life in prison,



If all murder is wrong, why a maximum punishment...murder is muder. Shouldnt all murderers go to prison for life?

Why would one person's murder be less to warrant the maximum punishment.

Well, you work out whose life is more important and what the different sentences of muder should be, then get back to me.
 Mikezt

Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 190
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 9:49:13 AM

have absolutely no problem with the wholesale slaughter of 100% innocent children through abortion.


First using the term wholesale slaughter, at least in this country is a bit overboard. Despite the fact that abortion is technically legal in this country, there are large areas, especially the mid-west and south where anti-abortionists have shut down the clinics that provide, among other health services, abortions. For a large number of poor people who don't have the means to travel to another state, abortion is not available. I don't think there is a wholesale number of abortions going on.

Secnodly, in my view, abortion in the early stages, first few weeks , is not slaughtering an innocent child , but terminating a potential human. There isn't anywhere near a fully developed brain so there is no personality, no individuality, no consciousness. Many pregnancies terminate naturally at this point due to some problem, does that mean god/nature is guilty of murder? I think it's a woman's choice whether to deliver or not. If there is a god, it's her decision to deal with the consequences, not ours.

As far as later term abortions go, these are only done when it's a choice between the mother's life and the child's life. I don't think any woman carries a child for 6, 7 or 8 months and then decides to abort it. And if were my choice between the life that was already in the world (my wife) and the life that is not yet in the world (the child she's carrying) I would choose my wife.
 Dasein2

Joined: 7/31/2009
Msg: 191
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 10:32:24 AM
I've always found it odd that many people, who do not condone the putting to death of convicted murderers (Yes, I understand that sometimes someone is wrongly convicted.), have absolutely no problem with the wholesale slaughter of 100% innocent children through abortion.


The solution is simple then - just start convicting the unborn.
 ChinaShopBull

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 192
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 11:14:12 AM

First using the term wholesale slaughter, at least in this country is a bit overboard. Despite the fact that abortion is technically legal in this country, there are large areas, especially the mid-west and south where anti-abortionists have shut down the clinics that provide, among other health services, abortions. For a large number of poor people who don't have the means to travel to another state, abortion is not available. I don't think there is a wholesale number of abortions going on.

Secnodly, in my view, abortion in the early stages, first few weeks , is not slaughtering an innocent child , but terminating a potential human. There isn't anywhere near a fully developed brain so there is no personality, no individuality, no consciousness. Many pregnancies terminate naturally at this point due to some problem, does that mean god/nature is guilty of murder? I think it's a woman's choice whether to deliver or not. If there is a god, it's her decision to deal with the consequences, not ours.

As far as later term abortions go, these are only done when it's a choice between the mother's life and the child's life. I don't think any woman carries a child for 6, 7 or 8 months and then decides to abort it. And if were my choice between the life that was already in the world (my wife) and the life that is not yet in the world (the child she's carrying) I would choose my wife.



What ever makes you feel better. People can justify just about anything. Compared to the number of innocent people sentenced to death every year, the number of children aborted every year is on the level of Holocaust numbers. Even late term abortions are ridiculously higher than the number of innocent people convicted of the death penalty... Hell. Every murderer that's been executed over the last decade (Whether guilty or not.) doesn't hold a candle to the number of children thrown away in one year in just the city of Washington, DC. Only 1,171 executions have been carried out in the USA since 1976.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_abo_rat-health-abortion-rate

What you feel should be considered a human being, is your opinion. Opinions vary.
 winteragain

Joined: 3/26/2009
Msg: 193
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 11:46:04 AM
Death penalty rocks! Even if it kills innocent people that had absolutely nothing to do with the crime and were just at the scene at the perfect time and left the perfect evidence for prosecution. Hey innocent guy, don't be such a perfectly innocent criminal. I'm sure the death penalty kills more true criminals than innocent ones though, which is good. Some collateral damage is expected. Hope I don't end up in death row for posting this but if it happens i wouldn't mind it.
 Mikezt

Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 194
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 11:58:58 AM

the number of children aborted every year is on the level of Holocaust numbers. Even late term abortions are ridiculously higher than the number of innocent people convicted of the death penalty... Hell. Every murderer that's been executed over the last decade (Whether guilty or not.) doesn't hold a candle to the number of children thrown away in one year in just the city of Washington, DC. Only 1,171 executions have been carried out in the USA since 1976.


It doesn't make me feel better or worse, it just my belief, and not my decision. And again, embryos and fetuses, not babies. What people consider to be a human being varies usually with religion. Now I'm an atheist, but most Christians consider it human at the moment of conception, in the Jewish religion I was taught it's not human until the crown of the head passes out of the mother. This was probably to allow the mother's life to take precedence over the babies. So who's religion do we go with if that's the approach you want to take?

Personally I believe it is human when the brain the baby is sufficiently developed for thought processes to go on. But even this cannot be determined from a time standpoint as we have no way to read a mind. I'm reluctant to define it further than that. Each fetus differs in development. I just hold to my belief that it's the woman's choice, with some input from me if she were my wife, but still ultimately her body, her choice.
 ChinaShopBull

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 195
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 1:15:52 PM

It doesn't make me feel better or worse, it just my belief, and not my decision. And again, embryos and fetuses, not babies. What people consider to be a human being varies usually with religion. Now I'm an atheist, but most Christians consider it human at the moment of conception, in the Jewish religion I was taught it's not human until the crown of the head passes out of the mother. This was probably to allow the mother's life to take precedence over the babies. So who's religion do we go with if that's the approach you want to take?

Personally I believe it is human when the brain the baby is sufficiently developed for thought processes to go on. But even this cannot be determined from a time standpoint as we have no way to read a mind. I'm reluctant to define it further than that. Each fetus differs in development. I just hold to my belief that it's the woman's choice, with some input from me if she were my wife, but still ultimately her body, her choice.



Once again, I'm not religious. Most of the older Asia born friends I have, count their age from conception. In recent years this has become less prevalent, as a moral shift to encompass and soften the high practice of abortion there occurs.

If the measure of a human's viability is it's level of mental development, how do we measure that? As far as I know, babies do not go from non-thinking blobs of flesh to sentient beings in the space of time it takes to pass through the birth canal. Most of us do not have conscious memories of our lives before the age of 3-4 years old. Is that when life actually starts. Or is it later when the ability to reason and think objectively develops? (That could be a danger for some adults I know.)
 Passionate Gent

Joined: 5/2/2009
Msg: 196
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 2:05:50 PM

try to find ways to make the prisons abuse and crime-free as much as humanly possible.


The above statement is ample evidence that some folks don't give much thought to what they post.

HOW IN THE NAME OF COMMON SENSE ARE WE TO KEEP PRISONS CRIME FREE, WHEN IT'S RESIDENTS ARE FREAKING CRIMINALS/CONVICTS!

DUH..................................!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Mikezt

Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 197
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 2:54:23 PM

If the measure of a human's viability is it's level of mental development, how do we measure that? As far as I know, babies do not go from non-thinking blobs of flesh to sentient beings in the space of time it takes to pass through the birth canal. Most of us do not have conscious memories of our lives before the age of 3-4 years old. Is that when life actually starts.


I was only relating what Jewish law is in the matter, actually I don't happen to agree with it. But most base their belief on some religion. And actually I can recall back to the age of 2, I have very vivid memories. My point is there is no good way to determine when an embryo actually becomes a viable human life, but I think in the first 4 weeks of pregnancy the answer is no. One could take it all the way back to sperm. One could say that all sperm are viable human life and you shouldn't be wanking off as it is murder. Some religions actually take this position.
 ChinaShopBull

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 198
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:37:24 PM

One could take it all the way back to sperm. One could say that all sperm are viable human life and you shouldn't be wanking off as it is murder. Some religions actually take this position.


One could, I suppose, but considering the number of sperm that die each time a baby IS conceived, let alone all the times people have intercourse and a child isn't conceived, that would be extreme. Besides, even if you don't ejaculate, excess sperm are passed in the urine. So, the argument could also be made that every time you take a piss you're committing murder. That would be silly. I don't think conception being the beginning of a person's life is silly. Inconvenient? Yes. But not silly.

There is a gap in the time when scientists say a fetus can feel pain. (Between 10 and 28 weeks, depending on the study and the politics of those doing the study.) Should this be a consideration when taking into account the viability of an unborn child? For all we know it could be even earlier.
 Mikezt

Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 199
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:59:51 PM

There is a gap in the time when scientists say a fetus can feel pain. (Between 10 and 28 weeks, depending on the study and the politics of those doing the study.) Should this be a consideration when taking into account the viability of an unborn child? For all we know it could be even earlier.


I think numbers are a poor discriminator, one death is just as bad as another.

As far as scientists saying a fetus can feel pain, I'm not sure it feels it the way we do as much as reacts to it. Be that as it may, I think 10 weeks is beyond the few week limit I was talking about.
 Mom2Beagle

Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 200
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:08:34 PM
This thread is about the death penalty, not abortion. If you want to discuss and debate abortion, why not start a new thread on that topic?
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