| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/11/2009 8:56:08 AM | "I still believe the universe has a beginning in real time, at the big bang. But there's another kind of time, imaginary time, at right angles to real time, in which the universe has no beginning or end."
—Stephen Hawking
Black Holes and Baby Universes | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/11/2009 9:47:09 AM | ^^^^^^ sorry - but I see that entire tract as a perfect example of why I hate discussing anything even remotely philosophical.
You say nonexistence cannot exist because you say it can't. But there is not predicament, and there is no paradox.
You've arrived at the conclusion you had before you started, and you've done so quite logically via sophistic manipulations of your definitions - which you only give us *after* you've been refuted. And I'm sorry - indulging in word games, and gaming definitions, does not a philosophical discussion make. What it DOES make, is an intellectual circle-jerk. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/11/2009 10:47:38 AM |
Every consciousness is the center of their own universe.
I'm the center of two but thats 'cause I got there for the early bird special. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/11/2009 11:23:36 AM | As I pointed out in another thread, topics like "The Big Bang" (and the subsequent expansion of the universe) require a knowledge of relativistic physics. And that field deals with concepts that can be quite counter-intuitive. In other words, you cannot just apply "common sense" reasoning.
For example: if you have two spaceships, one moving to the left at 90% the speed of light and the other moving to the right at 90% the speed of light, then "common sense" reasoning says that they should be moving faster than the speed of light relative to each other. But they're not! (And if you don't understand WHY they're not, then you probably won't understand much about the expansion of the universe either.  ) | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/11/2009 1:20:50 PM |
You say nonexistence cannot exist because you say it can't. But there is not predicament, and there is no paradox.
If there is nonexistence, then there is nothing for existence to act upon to form. Nothing to begin because there is nonexistence. Even if you claim there is a god, that is still something. There is absolutely a paradox. Unless you throw out all reason, logic, and cause and effect, and claim that these methods of evaluation are not valid. If you do that then one could just as easily argue that you or I don't exist either. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/11/2009 10:45:30 PM |
If there is nonexistence, then there is nothing for existence to act upon to form
And where does it say that "existence" requires something to act upon? | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 6:11:49 AM | I suppose the "true" center of the universe would be the smack dab middle, geographically speaking, i.e. the center of the bull's eye . . . is the center!
But to say that you are the center because the universe is infinite is another matter--how do we define "universe"? Is it expanding? If it is, it can't be "infinite" as yet, but into what area is it expanding? Is that "space" true infinity? If it is expanding, it can be measured. Is there more than one universe?
I am Queen of the Universe and I am the center--everything rotates around me, but only in my sphere of reality. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 8:08:45 AM | | I love it when people state unequivically and emphatically viewpoints that they have no basis or proof for, and no possible means of obtaining any such proof. Everybody's an Einstein! | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 8:15:00 AM | | Here's an interesting way to phrase the question: Does 13.7 billion lights years describe the full diameter of the universe or only its radius? | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 10:38:40 AM | Maybe it will help this discussion if we try to put things into perspective:
If the entire visible universe were to be scaled down to the size of the planet earth, our Milky Way galaxy would be only about the size of the Goodyear blimp, and our sun would be merely a faint pinpoint of light too small to be seen. Now, imagining a giant snail crawling along on top of the blimp at the ridiculous rate of one inch per century. Of course no snail could ever move at one inch per century -- because, at the current scale of size, one inch per century would be faster than the speed of light!
So can you imagine digging a small hole and looking down inside this hollow "earth" and trying to make sense of what you are "seeing" on the other side (e.g., China) when the light from even just an inch away will never reach you in your own lifetime?
And even though the size of this "earth" would be increasing at the speed of light, it would not appear to be expanding at all. (Its radius would increase less than an inch in your entire lifetime.) | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 10:53:50 AM | Here's an interesting way to phrase the question: Does 13.7 billion lights years describe the full diameter of the universe or only its radius?
Neither. Its has been estimated that the AGE of the universe is 13.7 billion years, but general relativity dictates that space itself is not limited by the speed of light. Only matter and waves WITHIN space have this limitation. So, even though the age is only 13 billion years or so, it is estimated that the universe is actually over 90 billion light years across (diameter). | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 11:48:31 AM |
I have to say that Funcuz's reply is by far the best interpretation. I have to disagree. My money is on Jingle Himmer. Certainly we have no proof that the universe, or multiverse is infinite, but Jingle's logic has to be taken into account. There is no proof that you exist either, from a solipsistic perspective, but one has to take certain assumptions into account if one is to keep from slipping down the rabbit hole into the realm of total flipped outedness. "Jingle logic". I like that.
I have to disagree with you lol
From a solipsistic perspective- only the 'you' can exist, therefore only you exist. You have it backwards about proof of existence.
The other dude said how if there is no definite dimension of the universe, then there is no definite center, and can never there be a definite center if it's always undefined in dimension. Therefore, one can never know, 'evar', where the center of the universe is. To presuppose that one is the center of the universe because the universe is infinite and undefined in dimension is solipsism at it's weakest. Solipsism can be a powerful tool in perceptual phenomenology, but to argue that you're the center of the universe is pointless and not possible to answer- weak use of the concept of solipsism.
The dude FUNCUZ's answer is still the best hands down, out of everyone's reply. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 12:04:16 PM |
Its has been estimated that the AGE of the universe is 13.7 billion years, but general relativity dictates that space itself is not limited by the speed of light.
Good point. It's easy to take for granted that what is visible is all there is. An example of "observational bias." | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 12:10:32 PM | From my perspective I am the center of my universe philosophically. I think therefore I am. But in relation to the universe it is impossible to be the center of the universe. To be the center everything would have to move around me where I am stationary. If I wanted to go to a shop the shop would essentially come to me. The laws of the universe would have to change to account for me being the center. I think Einstein and a few others have shown that everything is relative to everything else. Therefore, its hard to even start thinking about the center of the universe without taking into account every single matter that is relative to every other matter.
I've been wondering though. If an object exists whose mass is infinitely close to that of the universe such that the gravitational force of attraction exceeds every other force exhibit ted by matter, then does that object become the center of the universe? | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 1:30:03 PM | The universe isnt infinite. Just very, very big by our own meek standards. If it were infinite there would be no such location as the middle.
Why on earth would it expand equally in all directions, and into what.
Infinity is a non existent and impossible concept used by the meek of mind imo to get round the bigger picture or fiddle some equations. In a place of finite size infinity cannot exist ever in any format.
And given that the earth it self moves through space and time - all the time scuse the pun One more nail into your pantaloons conjecture | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 11:39:40 PM | You are the center of the universe as you have defined it, which is in conventional (yawn) 4th dimensional terms.
You could arrive at the same answer by stepping outside on a clear, moonless night, letting your eyes adjust to the darkness, bending deeply at the waist, and putting your head between your knees.
From your perspective, you are the center of the universe AS YOU KNOW IT, but to everyone else, you've just re-discovered Uranus.
Glad to clear that up. Can't help you with that anal-cranial inversion thing you've got going, however. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/13/2009 11:49:08 PM | I say no, you are not the centre of the universe. From a physical sense, you have coordinates which puts you off centre and in a spiritual sense, there should be no centre (just existence if infinate) unless you are a narcissist and believes it all revolves around you.
If you asked the question, is it possible for someone to have the perspective they were the center of the universe, I'd say yes. But it's also possible for people to have the perspective the earth is flat. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/14/2009 12:48:23 PM | The iniverse is not infinite.
It is also donut shaped, and we (and everything elde in it) are on the surface of the donut (called a toroid, or torous).
This explains lots of things including curved space, and (possibly) the existence of 'worm holes'.
If we were to trave far enough in any one direction, we'd end up back where we started. (try this for yourself next time you buy a donut).
And I can assure you all that I'm not mad, it's true. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/15/2009 10:10:47 AM | How can the universe stop? Can I open a door, walk through and then I'm outside the universe?
What I would walk into is the exact same thing that makes up our universe, Existence! Even if the matter is different then what we're use to, there is no seperation in one existence from the other. The only thing that seperates existence is non-existence
You ask how come there cant be such a thing as non-existence? Because by defenition thats what it is, non-existent. What properties could make something(nothing) non-existence? None, anything with a property has existence. So how could non-existence have any property which stops existence? If it did, then infact it would be existence. So there is no stop to existence. Existence is infinite!!
If non-existence was ever all there was, there would have been nothing to exist to change its properties. Now take it a step further....
If all that existed in the begining of time was a single, infinite gas of some sort, where would the variation of that gas or the change of that gas come from? You have to have two things combined to produce a different result. There couldnt have been two of anything seperate from each other, cause what would have seperated them? And they couldnt already be combined, because that would then be the start, and the combined gas would only be one.
So if all came from one, the ONE must have been something that desired change, and thereby created IT'S own change. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/15/2009 10:27:07 AM | | Is the universe getting bigger?....Or are we getting smaller?....Or is it both at the same time?....(Or should this be the start of another thread?) | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/15/2009 11:07:16 AM | Is the universe getting bigger?....Or are we getting smaller?...
How would you determine the correct answer the question: "Is the earth rotating, or is the universe merely revolving around a stationary earth?" | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/15/2009 11:41:38 AM |
How would you determine the correct answer the question: "Is the earth rotating, or is the universe merely revolving around a stationary earth?"
Well, the sun and the other planets would have a pretty complicated orbit path if that was the case. | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/15/2009 11:56:56 AM |
Well, the sun and the other planets would have a pretty complicated orbit path if that was the case.
Yes. But that didn't stop Ptolemy from believing it.
Even though the orbits would be complicated, that wouldn't "prove" it wasn't so.
So, just how could you "prove" it to be one way or the other? | |
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| I Am the Center of the Universe
Posted: 6/15/2009 12:10:50 PM |
You'd probably have to watch from 'outside' of the universe
So, since nobody has ever gone 'outside' of the universe, you think the question can't be answered?
(Hint: Let me rephrase my original question slightly... "If you were on a merry-go-round, how could know that you weren't stationary, and that everything wasn't simply going around you?)  | |
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