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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/29/2009 5:22:39 PM | I heard a request for a long post...lol...one of my specialties...teehee..
Here's an interesting twist...lots of approaches right now..but,. it appears that if you don't answer quick enough..they delete their profile and disappear...lol..is that me not approaching?..lol..I'm trying to keep up really...but, only so many hours in the day, and I have to do SOME work, and post...etc..
I have had three guys do this very thing in the last four days....unless someone is setting me up to make a point?..roflmao...Because I have no other explanation for the sudden onslaught as it is....
According to my gay friend Rick...bottoms generally, though not always , take a more traditionally feminine role...and they don't usually approach...same dynamic with older/younger men hook ups...and in a lot of the lesbians he knows...the more" masculine" ( if there is one who is) of the pair usually is more assertive/pro active...which probably indicates it doesn't have to do with gender, but, gender roles....
I honestly don't care who does what...or what role(s) anyone chooses to be, or to be both..or whatever....I just hate it when any idea /theory/belief is presented as an absolute..and suited for all. I hate extremists of any stripe...I personally hate being dictated to...
In my mind, and maybe I am wrong..equality implies allowing for the different beliefs of others...whether we are talking gender, race, religion...some tolerance is implied in my mind ( as long as it isn't illegal/immoral/anti-social)...I don't have to take their belief as my own...but, I can respect that they have their own, and it works for them...even if it doesn't work for me....
itsmargo: I'm not arguing...I just was asking, because , I really don't get that..not saying it isn't good that people do, just don't know it is a requirement for all, or that all are even capable of it...then...I really respect my parents and how they brought me up, and the values they taught me..and while I agree that much of what women ( and men) bring with them into adulthood has been more implied than overt...I really thought I made all the divergences from what I was taught(absorbed) that I thought I needed to...I'm actually not that traditional in most ways..in fact, it is a problem still with my mother and I..
As for effective or ineffective...I'm guessing those who never approach, and don't want to...must be working for them not to..or would they keep doing it? Then again..neither approach seems to make a hill of beans in terms of long term success in my world...and I don't stop...lol...
Men don't have to approach if they don't want to...but, neither do women...if I was dictating male behavior to men, I would be jumped on...why is the opposite ok?
Was that long enough chamleonof?..lol...
IF not...I haven't figured out how to quote from several pages back without losing what I already posted and I'm probably going to post one more.... | |
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Savona
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Joined: 7/14/2009
Msg: 1602 | |
| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/29/2009 5:24:18 PM |
Who in the hell brought this up anyway ?
See you can never judge a poster by posts alone.
Savona wrote ...
That is why I don't ask men out ... I like men with BALLS .... well enough balls to ask me out. Oppps did I say balls again, I meant confidence. Although I do like big balls .... hahaha
And there you though I was vein ... eheheh. Vein and funny, well maybe I will agree with that.
Hummm I am getting a scent ... **sniffing the air** yep its moose balls passing through the forums.
S | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/29/2009 5:32:18 PM | According to my gay friend Rick...bottoms generally, though not always , take a more traditionally feminine role...and they don't usually approach...same dynamic with older/younger men hook ups...and in a lot of the lesbians he knows...the more" masculine" ( if there is one who is) of the pair usually is more assertive/pro active...which probably indicates it doesn't have to do with gender, but, gender roles....
I totally disagree with that. My gay neighbor says the same thing, and we always end up arguing...
I *prefer* to ask guys out. But I like to have my bottom spanked.
Maybe this somehow falls under natural selection...
The only time I want a guy to come to me, is to mow my lawn...  | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/29/2009 5:40:57 PM | Ummm was that compliment being told you have hip action? Ummm doesn't that mean you are swishing? Oh gosh, I didn't look at your profile to see if you ummm errr oh gosh turning red...but the men that I knew that dressed like women that really wanted to look like women used padding for their hips and behind. And yeah, some of them swished better than I ever could back in the day of the run way. If ya don't use padding when you are a guy, well it often looks like the hips are narrower than the belly, thus the jeans going below the belly and belts being used to hold the pants up. Kind of like || versus women are ) (. Just what I have observed, not all fit in the lines. Of course I used to use the black crayon around the lines to make sure I colored in them or used the same color crayon to make sure I stayed in. I liked to blend the colors. Magenta and yellow could make some really pretty shades or is it hues? Hugh Grant used to be cute and he...oh gosh, are we on page 80 yet?
I called my fiance first, but he emailed me first. We met in Gettysburg where neither of us live. So does that make us equal? | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/29/2009 6:05:38 PM |
What men are simply, simply, very simply asking is why do SOME women think that a woman's role is to be passive in dating. when other women don't.
Because all women aren't the same...as all men aren't either. Different personalities, different upbringings, different experiences...if not...wouldn't we all be attracted to everyone? I'd love to be the perfect woman for every man...that would really be easy then, no?
But you did ask to "understand" why some men have issues with how SOME women try and put themselves in a "special" class distinction.
Oh, I understand why you have an issue with it...I don' t understand why simply dating women who think like you do isn't a viable option ( not you personally...I know what you do), instead of trying to get all women to behave the same? ( the you's are general). Or , denigrating those who think differently...
Just because someone respects me, doesn't in any way make me feel obligated to respect them back, when they haven't earned my respect.
I don't have to agree with someone to respect them..opinions are opinions...in fact, I tend to be drawn to people who have a different perspective , learn a lot...and sometimes it helps me see things I never saw before...I respect people who are "good" people..their opinions on dating/religion etc...have nothing to do with it...people who are "good" people earn my respect...but, again...respect as in manners is different than respect as in: point of view.
I don't demand respect...I expect to be treated in the same way I treat others..which in my case..is with respect. I don't expect agreement even...just acknowledgment that disagreeing doesn't make it invalid.
I guess you think I really "care" to change anyone's mind? I don't.
Hmmm..I must be more of an activist than you...more pro active? If I think something is really unjust...I try to change it, I at least try to influence if I can...I would think if someone thinks women not approaching is a social injustice...they would campaign to get it changed, no? That was my assumption for many of the posters, if not you...they certainly appear to be trying to change things...
I'm not yelling
I wasn't speaking personally of just you...
That's bull. I have a ton of "women" friends on the forums. You might be shocked at how well we get along.
I'm certain you didn't post this for my benefit...I never questioned that at all..besides.. I even said: "metaphorical you"..stop projecting...I haven't got a problem with you anyway, I like you...It appears it is the other way around?
treat women, no better or no worse than I would a man. Period. I'm not sexist
I don't know verity...I've read a lot of your posts...I can't remember seeing too many, if any, where you spoke to men who disagree with you the same way you speak to women who do, in fact, except to compliment what you think is a good post...I don't see you addressing men much at all...and you certainly don't talk down to them the same way....
Outside of the forums, I would never have this much dialogue debating a(or any fundamental) topic I don't align with, with someone I was initially intrested in. I'd write them off quicker than a bad debt.
Well, here on the forums it isn't about dating is it? And in private...maybe your perspective would help..but, still, friends and lovers are not the same thing...You think I debate this kind of stuff with men I just met? That's what the forums are for...Though, I will say that intellectual discourse is one of my favorite things...my dad taught me that...learning experience..and I am open minded to listen to others, especially those whom I respect...( not their ideas..them....)
And btw...we don't fundamentally disagree on most of what is said here...I just ask a lot of questions, and don't know have all the answers and am looking for input from people who seem to make sense, and have some insight/abilities I don't...and ..sometimes I'm looking for help...to understand, to GET it...to improve myself...
I'm not looking to meet "halfway" between how an "individual" does things, and who I am fundamentally, in a romatic relationship. I don't compromise myself that way. I'm good with who I am, and only hang with people that align with me.
I don't attempt to meet them "halfway".
Well, either I don't express myself in a way that I mean too...or, you just misunderstand me ( and this necessarily isn't about dating)...I am not asking , nor do I think..anyone should change who they are, or what they believe..or compromise themselves for another at all...but, explaining their perspective could make the change.., and I'm not suggesting you go against your core beliefs or any such thing....just don't make assumptions, ridicule those who think differently..or dismiss them if they are honestly trying to understand...the way they know how...
That's just my opinion.... | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/29/2009 10:21:33 PM |
Nope, HERE's a suck-sinked version of the last million pages:
Men: I am right, you are wrong, if you don't agree that I'm right, you are one of those entitled biotches.
Women: Here's how I feel, and here's my perspective on it.
Men: NO YOU ARE WRONG YOU HAVEN'T PROVEN ANYTHING AND YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE MEANS NOTHING. Now, here's my personal experience, which is the only valid way of looking at things...
A better summary of the last 50+ pages is as follows:
Men persist asking few simple questions, while women do everything else but give an adequate honest answer.
At the heart of this thread there is a question which requires nothing to be proven, nor any experience to be consulted, only an honest thoughtful answer.
Red I never said you or any names, so if you take my silly posts to heart then you have issues more than what can be helped by posters on POF.
Your posts are not silly. Some of your posts are highly offensive.
Its a joke man, all the posts are for fun, this is entertainment.
You have a cruel sense of humor.
And not all posts here are for entertainment. Some posts have merit beyond that of "entertainment".
Nah, "power" is a man's game. That's man-think.
It's a woman's game too.
And then the women are sitting here, confused, saying, "But I just want to be loved?! Is that so wrong?!"
They are doing a lot more than just that.
Countries with even more stringent equality laws than we have, like Sweden, still have a persistent gender gap of about 12% with women earning .88 one the dollar compared with men. They have conducted extensive research into what causes the gap to persist and have concluded it is the choices women make rather than inequality of opportunity or gender bias in pay.
Concise and to the point.
We truly have not achieved economic equality by a longshot, yet there are some men on here who are adamant that we pay equally in the cost of dating.
Belle Lass, you condemn equality in one post, then turn around and praise it in another.
Also, both of your assertions in the above statement are false, and off topic.
Their reasoning being somewhat misogynistic, I feel. I hear the rant "You wanted equality, well, ya got it! Pony up."
You hear wrong then.
In my personal situation, I don't have that issue, but I do feel for many women who are feeling obligated to pay for a possibly over-budget dating lifestyle because the man feels entitled to take her money in the name of fairness and equality.
You do not know what you are talking about. Please copy and paste or link to the post(s) which say what you just implied.
Let's get facts straight here. I'm not asking a woman to pay for me. She shouldn't have to pay for "both" of us; that would be unfair, right? But if women like you "expect" men to pay for themselves "and" the woman, it's perfectly acceptable. Gotcha.
As Chris Rock so bluntly put it:
"**** cost money, but****is free! Any money you (a woman) spend on****is a bad investment. Nothing dries up a **** quicker than a woman reaching for her wallet."
When Savona got up on her hind legs and spoke her piece, a few posts back, she did not name names
I disagree with that. She was referring to all the guys that write in the forums, so by inclusion she did name names.
I thought I was the only one who picked up on that.
If a man had done it, he'd gotten treated worse by me.
If a man made that post, he'd would have been banned.
Actually x-file, lemme answer this one! What I was specifically taught was "NICE girls don't ask boys out. NICE girls don't call boys. NICE girls don't chase boys".
And when I railed about what a double standard this was and how unfair it was I was specifically told "Yeah, it sucks and yeah it is not fair and yeah, it is a double standard, but it is the way life IS and you need to deal with the way life works and not how you wish
it would work. The times might be changing, but they haven't yet."
Regarding the first part, I want to know if your parents specifically said to you, "Don't ask boys out", not "Nice girls don't ask boys out", etc., for that can be nothing more than an observation they were sharing with you rather than trying to teach you how to behave when it comes to dating.
I mean, "Nice girls don't ask boys out", is not quite the same as, "You should not ask boys out" for the first only applies to you if you happen to be a nice girl, whereas the second applies to you regardless.
As to your the second point, I don't quite see its relevance. I read the paragraph few times and the main point seems to me to be "Make lemonade if life gives you lemons". I don't think that person was saying, "Men ask women out. That's how life is. Therefore don't ask men out."
Where as most men on here are full of bull shiit.
I thought it was just most posters. Now it's most men on here. Just come out an say it, most men on the planet are full of bullshit.
They pretend to be so open minded to many types of women, but hey we know the truth. Most of the men posters still dream that this 5'9 blond bombshell will just ask them out, pay her own way and be at least 5 - 10 years younger than the men.
What horrible dream to have!!! Bad men!
I'd reply to the rest of your post, but it is way off topic. We already did the "Who pays for first date?" thread.
Depending on how gorgeous men perceive them, there’s no shortage of guys that have no problem bending over backward supplying this obedience and worship.
Yep. And thus men are partly to blame for the current dating chaos.
The truth was I was not actually referring to any one poster in particular. SOME posters ... ok well MANY of the men posters on here, who spend half their posts trying to justify why it is the woman's fault that they don't get asked out and WANT the woman to ask them out is just one for a good laugh.
Currently there are about 1630 posts. For simplicity lets assume half are by men and half by women. That means 815 posts were made by men. The most favorable interpretation of "MANY" is 51%.
51% of 815 posts is about 415 posts.
Therefore, you should be able point to 415 posts in which a man blames a woman or women for not being asked out.
Why don't you back your claim by providing, say, just 5 posts in which a man blames a woman or women for not being asked out.
I've read this entire thread from start to finish. I can tell you are making false accusations. You are blaming most men for something they never did. | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/29/2009 11:21:02 PM | | it is a pity that the human mind does not have an accessible hard drive so that we can delete things from the past that don't serve us which makes it a lot easier in trying to get to know each person that we meet without previous experience and preconceived ideas getting in the way all the time. How much more successful would everyone become in relating to others and how much better a place would the world become. | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 12:09:29 AM | X_file, whether they agree with me or not, I usually hate smarmy smart-a**ses that pick and choose snippets of other people's posts, take them out of context (most you cited were in response to at least one previous post, so you'd have to go back to the root for your "real" source) and reply with quick, snide comments, but I have to admit yours were entertaining.
Btw, especially liked this one...
I've read this entire thread from start to finish.
My friend, if you waded through 60-odd pages of posts in this thread you have WAY too much time on your hands.
Best Regards.
Mo | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 3:43:24 AM | Good morning people, I'm declaring this be nice to women day, approach her first, be nice and at the end of the night, she may take you home to hold your ballz !
Seriously Good Morning everyone !
Cheers
Paul
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 5:14:33 AM |
ItsMargo: Actually x-file, lemme answer this one! What I was specifically taught was "NICE girls don't ask boys out. NICE girls don't call boys. NICE girls don't chase boys".
And when I railed about what a double standard this was and how unfair it was I was specifically told "Yeah, it sucks and yeah it is not fair and yeah, it is a double standard, but it is the way life IS and you need to deal with the way life works and not how you wish
it would work. The times might be changing, but they haven't yet."
x_file: Regarding the first part, I want to know if your parents specifically said to you, "Don't ask boys out", not "Nice girls don't ask boys out", etc., for that can be nothing more than an observation they were sharing with you rather than trying to teach you how to behave when it comes to dating.
I mean, "Nice girls don't ask boys out", is not quite the same as, "You should not ask boys out" for the first only applies to you if you happen to be a nice girl, whereas the second applies to you regardless.
As to your the second point, I don't quite see its relevance. I read the paragraph few times and the main point seems to me to be "Make lemonade if life gives you lemons". I don't think that person was saying, "Men ask women out. That's how life is. Therefore don't ask men out."
I put it in quotes to indicate it was exactly what I recall being repeated to me. And no, it was a very specific and insidious lesson in how not to be a slut. You may find it ambiguous, but I can assure that neither I nor my parents were unclear that the bottom line was "do not ask boys out".
To suggest this was not a message in "do not call boys" would be akin to believing the 1972 Summit Series was "just a hockey tournament" and did not have any political undertones to it.
As to the relevance of the second part. I thought "don't call boys" was a ridiculous stance - especially during the times of "burning bras" and equality protests on our TV set each night - and we had many debates in our house about gender equality, roles, human potential and what it means to be a human being. At the same time as my parents were telling me not to buck society by calling boys, they were also both telling me to expect to pay my own way in life. My father, who I suspect had issues with "entitlement princesses" put it as "Don't expect some man is going to come along to pay for you just because you were born with breasts" and my mother voiced it as "Don't fall into the trap of relying on a man to pay for you because you'll be in trouble if it goes sideways later on"
^^ These were conflicting messages within my own family and spoke to a double standard as well as conflicting ideas about roles and responsibilities. My father told me to wait it out, times hadn't changed yet, at some point in the future the double standards would be sorted out... until then, build your career and don't call boys!
How ironic we are still debating these social constructs and roles some 30 odd years later. My daughter is a decade younger than you x_file, were I to suggest to her not to call a boy or that he should pay for dates, she would be shocked at the sexism. And quite rightly too. | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 6:43:47 AM | X-file: not being female or from our generation...you have no idea the conflciting messages, and subtle implications we grew up with..and it came from all sources...not just our parents..."nice" girls didn't do a lot of things ..equal or not...and don't even get me started on the double standard about sex...while promoting equality?
My parents also appeared to talk out of both sides of their mouth..though I'm sure they were neither conscious of it, nor doing it deliberately..they were imparting what they had always lived and learned...
On the one hand...they promoted education, and working, and a good work ethic...on the other their views about men/women and dating were still along traditional lines..they were also devout catholics, which influenced their views too...and my mom was a tradtional stay at home mom...by choice, but, I think she often wondered how her life may have been different if she had taken a different path...My dad probably embraced equality only in the sense of I was equal as a person...and I could work ( though to be honest..I think this was tied to his concepts about money rather than equality), and go to school..and I didn't have to get married..near as I could tell..he never resented supporting my mom or me and my five siblings...he thought it was his 'Job", and he had pride in it...
Nothing disillusioned me the most, when after being told my whole life I was going away to college, and I was going to have a successful career...then when I graduated from High School..suddenly I was told I couldn't go...seems the ability for me to be educated was tied to whether my father thought it was important enough to go into debt over?....he made too much money for me to get grants/scholarships...but, he wasn't willing to get a loan etc for me to go..even though I was willing to work to help....so much for equal opportunity...
It is not so easy to throw off the lessons/values learned when you are a child..especially if you respect your parents otherwise...look at this way...if suddenly 20 years from now..people came along and told you everything you believed and valued growing up was now deemed "inappropriate" or "wrong"...what would be your response?
Women are not the only ones who perpetuate the "entitled princess" thing, or fairy tales..men wrote most fairy tales..Disney was started and is still primarily run by men...princess stuff is everywhere..and there are still alot of men who buy into it themselves...
The romantic in me, who loves fairy tales because they are happy and idealisitc...can not give up the happy feeling they are for me...but, I was brought up to be fair and kind and generous regardless of gender or situation..I do not find them mutually exclusive...
This is the best "simple" , honest answer I can give you...a lot of women were conditioned...most I know certainly didn't make a conscious decision to want men to pursue...with the idea that it was about being selfish or unfair..it was what we were taught..and it was how the adults around us conducted themselves..this doesn't suddenly change at middle age, because some people say it should? We all have comfort zones...even men do...I would say that most men don't step out of theirs that often either..the ones that do, are the exception...just like the women who do, at least at this point, are the exception...
While I understand what you guys are saying..I still maintain that it is rarely for the reasons you ascribe to it...and that you rarely acknowledge the differences in how women are brought up, or how they may think...process..reagrdless of how the behavior appears these days..I believe that most of it was honest..not calculating or meant to punish men or makes things harder for them..it was just what was learned..and what has always worked...and most men in my age group( at least around here) follow the same constructs...
Never in my head, ever, till I read the forums did I ever think that I liked when men approach, or did nice things for me had anything to do with thinking I was better than them or deserved special treatment..it was always just a good indicator that he liked me...and I have always returned it in the ways I can..because this is what I was taught...not because I was trying to beat the system , lord it over men, control them..or any nonsense...while admitting that some women do do this..i'm guessing they aren't that self aware to even articulate why..they just know it works...and it's always been that way..and still, I can't speak for other parts of the world...but, where I live..they are the minority...most people I know barely pay attention to social issues...they just live their life everyday...as they always have...
I can not and do not want to give up my romantic side..and since I know that I am always fair and kind and caring ..I can't buy that I , personally, am doing anything wrong...whichever way I go...I always am considereate of other people and their feelings....and I still think more women are than aren't....at least in my world...
Wasn't very simple...darn it...lol..but, that's about as honest as I can get....
BTW: I have never carried a man's ballz in my purse...but, I have certainly carried a lot of keys, wallets, etc, and whatever else they didn't have pockets for...lol... | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 6:51:49 AM | Good morning all, have had coffee and moosetrack ice cream..my eyes hurt already..
and before anyone gets cute..yes, I took the spoon out of the coffee cup!
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 7:01:20 AM | I am Not reading all 66 pages of this thread! noooooooooooooooo way! 
That said ..
OT - it is Biology. Men and women Are different - Generally speaking of course! IF women were capable of procreating as much and as often as men we'd have no time for anything else and our species would end up like those poor little lemurs that routinely suicide about half the pack due to severe overpopulation.
Regardless .. I Like the fact that we are different. And I like it when a man who is interested in me isn't afraid to show it.
That said - I have initiated contact a FEW times - esp on this site .. Funny how so many are asceered to say "hello" back ..
Hello! | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 7:08:35 AM | These should be something we all agree on ....
1) The core issue with dating is most will continue to behave as they see fit. Whether one agrees with specific behavior or not doesn't matter. It’s not really worth getting your blood pressure up arguing with someone that will never understand, let alone see merit, in your position (this goes to all sides—I’m not immune, no one is).
2) People will date whom they want and how they want, according to whatever criteria they feel important. To some this could be as simple as instant physical attraction and as lengthy as a Ph.D. dissertation.
3) Dating dysfunction is in the eye of the beholder, and no two people may agree on what constitutes it or see the same flaws. I say dysfunction, since happy, stress-free, “functioning” relationships, no matter what they’re based on, don’t need to be “helped”, do they?
The back and fourths in here just snip at the fringes of the fundamental differences many have with the wider, more important subject: What it takes to find a secure, happy, satisfying relationship that stands the test of time (and that’s over “years”, people; weeks or months don't count...those are "flings", not serious relationships). | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 7:19:31 AM | You know, as in Zangie's post earlier on, why is it so wrong? Anything that worked before the 70's is now labelled with all sorts of "isms."
I was of the era of burning bras, too. Idealism was rampant. Still is.
We beat the sh*it out of our familylife, values and it's structure because of ideals. We invented all sorts of words/names/labels to excuse the bashing of our foundation. Words like "stereotypes, political correctness,
Take this ~
It is acceptable that boys who were fascinated with "girly" things like shoes, clothes, dolls can now come out and admit that they are gay or that they would like a sex change. It is acceptable to believe that this was inherent in these boys from birth. The very idea of trying to wipe out their liking of feminine things and to try and make "boys" out of them is abhorrent! It would just confuse the poor little boys!
Very PC.
Yet....little girls who are born with this natural attraction to "girly" things are now told that it was social conditioning from their parents. They're not born this way!!! we are told by the social dictators of the idealistic ism.
We are now encouraged to treat them like boys. Don't buy them dolls, shoes, purses, jewllery, sparkly things and it will make better people out of them. Expose them to boy things!
Confused little girls we have now today? Yep. Go and sit for a couple days in Juvenile Court. It will blow your mind. According to experts in the fields of child issues, the alarming trend of teen female violence has escalated to the point that they are wondering what the heck went wrong. Let's look at the propaganda about families and children for the last twenty years. Sometimes hindsight is better than foresight.
My daughter was born a "girly girl" one hundred percent. It started on her first week of life. I am sure she understood what I saying. "You like pink..."
I gave her every chance to do anything she wanted and exposed her to sports etc. She turned out to be athletically gifted, but, she is still all girly girl in everything else.
What is wrong with that? IMO not a darn thing at all.
In fact, I did what was right. I allowed her to be her. Equality wasn't a card that I played. What for? To create a role that I wanted for her? No, I allowed her to follow her instincts about people, life, sex, and what she wanted to do in life. She has made some fabulous choices in her life and she is happy because she followed who she was and not some preconcieved idea of what I figured she should be.
Being responsible was something that I taught her. I taught her good core values that have been taught to children for hundreds of years. It has nothing to do with equality. I taught her that if you really liked doing something and that you enjoyed it, make it a career. You might as well get paid for doing it. She has. I didn't play the equality card with that either.
She has met and married someone who is what every mother wants for her daughter plus more. Mature, responsible, intelligent, caring, loving, has a great career and is eager to start a family as she is, too. No confusion there.
I treated my son exactly the same way as I treated my daughter, no more, no less.
He was born all boy. Going concern from birth. Crawled at 4 months just so that he could reach a truck! Anything that moved, had wheels or was noisy, he loved.
When I showed him things that were traditionally girly, he just gave it a glance and went back to doing what he found interesting. I didn't push it. Why? He had no interest.
Today he is a responsible man who is happy. He's finally found the One and is considering marriage next year.
There are many men and women on here who are making poor choices. They have such anger at the opposite gender. Are they confused? Maybe they are.
Are we, as a generation, able to be humble and say that we made mistakes resulting from ill thought out idealisms?
Can we say that making a gender the same as the other gender will be a disaster?
We already know what happens to gay people who had parents trying to make them back into something that they weren't. The psych's couches and rosters are filled with confused people.
If I had tried to make my son girly and my daughter a tomboy, I would be doing them a severe injustice to who they really were.
I am not confusing what equality is about.
Equal opportunity is the healthy equality for all.
Making the genders same thinking and same acting is a cruel and deliberate science experiment. That is not equality. Celebrate our differences. It is what Nature always intended.
Allow men their natural tendencies in the mating/dating scene and allow women their natural tendencies in the mating/dating game.
Then there is no confusion. | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 7:53:31 AM | | Belle_lass, Children aren't born with preconceived notions of masculinity and femininity, that's something they learn through conformity. Your daughter liking sports doesn't make her manly, it makes her your daughter who likes sports. If your son had liked dolls, it wouldn't have made him effeminate or gay, it would have simply made him your son who likes dolls. I think you are confused about what equality is. It's about eradicating sexism, which you propagate plenty of. | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:10:38 AM | Savona wrote ...
I like men with BALLS .... well enough balls to ask me out. Oppps did I say balls again, I meant confidence. Although I do like big balls .... hahaha
Savona, NO NO NO. Analogy taken too far. Way too far. Big balls make life too difficult. Interfere with walking, always in the way, and they're a pain in the ass (well, not exactly ass) when participating in sports. Rather have no balls than deal with too large.
What you want is a man with appropriately sized balls that knows how to use what God gave him -- how's that for extending the analogy?
TK
{p.s., congrats on the grandson. First? Everybody doin' well? tk} | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:13:28 AM |
I put it in quotes to indicate it was exactly what I recall being repeated to me. And no, it was a very specific and insidious lesson in how not to be a slut. You may find it ambiguous, but I can assure that neither I nor my parents were unclear that the bottom line was "do not ask boys out".
To suggest this was not a message in "do not call boys" would be akin to believing the 1972 Summit Series was "just a hockey tournament" and did not have any political undertones to it.
As to the relevance of the second part. I thought "don't call boys" was a ridiculous stance - especially during the times of "burning bras" and equality protests on our TV set each night - and we had many debates in our house about gender equality, roles, human potential and what it means to be a human being. At the same time as my parents were telling me not to buck society by calling boys, they were also both telling me to expect to pay my own way in life. My father, who I suspect had issues with "entitlement princesses" put it as "Don't expect some man is going to come along to pay for you just because you were born with breasts" and my mother voiced it as "Don't fall into the trap of relying on a man to pay for you because you'll be in trouble if it goes sideways later on"
^^ These were conflicting messages within my own family and spoke to a double standard as well as conflicting ideas about roles and responsibilities. My father told me to wait it out, times hadn't changed yet, at some point in the future the double standards would be sorted out... until then, build your career and don't call boys!
As you made the transition from "waiting to be asked out" to doing some of "the asking" yourself, did you run into that stigma of being considered, as you put it, a slut?
I would guess yes (not calling you a slut, just that you may have been considered one by the more ignorant of men).
The reason I ask is that I see that sort of thing happening here in this very thread, except it's some men being stigmatized as having "no balls" because they wonder why they are expected to always pursue. I'm just pointing out the parallel here, and I suspect that is part of the answer to the irony you mention in the below quote:
How ironic we are still debating these social constructs and roles some 30 odd years later. My daughter is a decade younger than you x_file, were I to suggest to her not to call a boy or that he should pay for dates, she would be shocked at the sexism. And quite rightly too.
We are still debating this SPECIFIC issue because as long as some people keep adhering to what they've probably been conditioned to do, think, and expect concerning pursuit, we'll keep having this debate, and probably hit that 80 page plateau. | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:14:32 AM | Hey OP,
Since I'm in marketing, I love research. So here's a potential answer to your question:
An Article that takes place in the Speed dating world:
"We've long been told that women are more selective when it comes to the men they choose to date.
But what if at least a part of that selectivity is due simply to environmental factors and social norms - factors that could be easily manipulated? For instance, might approaching - rather than being approached - in a dating situation make individuals less selective?
Finkel & Eastwick (2009) set about to answer just that question with an experiment designed to test whether a potential partner's "choosiness" was due in part to whether they were the ones doing the choosing or not. They corralled 350 college students into 15 speed dating events for their study. Participants went on 4 minute "speed dates" with approximately 12 opposite-sex individuals during each event. After each date, participants rated their romantic desire and romantic chemistry for that partner, as well as how much self-confidence they felt that had on that particular "date."
The researchers found that the speed daters who approached their partners relative to those who stayed sitting would experience a greater romantic desire and chemistry toward their partners, and were more likely to respond "Yes, I would see this person again" to their partners. In other words, the people who rotated from person to person were less selective than those sitting, regardless of which gender was doing the rotating.
When men rotated, women (the ones sitting) were more selective. But when women did the rotating, men (the ones sitting) were more selective. Nothing else changed in the experiment, so it was the act of doing the approaching (or being approached) that helped determine a person's selectivity toward their partner. " | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:15:01 AM | roninvince.
My daughter was born girly girl. I did not teach her to be that way.
Why do you think what I am saying is false? Do you have proof?
Same as that little gay boy who liked all things girly from birth. I mean, who taught him that? I am sure his mother and father didn't. | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:20:58 AM | sammylg.
This speed dating has rules, parameters and boundaries that is not like the real world.
See what online dating has done. Read the threads. Online dating is skewed and it has finally shown itself as that. Ideally, it should work and sometimes does, but not in huge #'s.
It simply is not like relating, meeting and dating in the real world. | |
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PiggyT
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Joined: 9/14/2009
Msg: 1623 | |
| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:31:49 AM | Sitting here literally saying
WOW
WOW
WOW
my head is shaking. lol. I think there are WAY too many people needing to get laid. I am 100% serious about that.
Dating site people.... DATING site... not b*tching and moaning site... | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:45:28 AM |
Belle_lass, Children aren't born with preconceived notions of masculinity and femininity, that's something they learn through conformity
Uh ronvince...I have to disagree with you on this one..maybe some things are learned from comformity...but, some things are ingrained, and biological and nature...sex drives and preferences are one instance...who we are at our core is something we are born with...environment can influence us...but, it doesn't make us...it isn't all about one or the other, but, both...
I was the oldest child in my family...my mother says I was born liking shoes and purses...there was no one to conform to...some masucline and feminine behaviors are ingrained...and you cannot force people of either gender to conform to something that isn't natural for them, or feels off...PEOPLE are born with natural likes and dislikes, which sometimes cross gender lines, sometimes do not...
There is certainly enough science to back that up...
Not being sexist does not, in my opinion, mean trying to clone people to behave exactly the same, or insisting that they can't be either feminine or masculine...that would be an extreme I can not agree with...
Treating people fairly has nothing to do with what gender they are, or who's gender is better.... | |
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| Why women want guys to come to THEM
Posted: 9/30/2009 8:50:53 AM | | Piggy: only speak for myself...but the forums are entirely separate to me from the dating side...I don't date off the forums for the most part ( not many in my area are even on them)..this is where I just talk about it..lol... | |
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