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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:08:06 AM | | i have a dnr donor oreder. if you are an adult human and you are brain dead before you get to that state you have the right to make that decision. a innocent child in the womb cannot make that decision and therefore we should not punish them for the mistakes thier parents make. thats like me send my friends to jail because my brother committed murder. we all must pay the penalty for our own actions. not the neighbors for ours and not the doctors for our parents and not our parents for those they dont know. and yes as an adult if you are brain dead yes there is not activity i say shoot me and get me out of my misery because being artifically kept alive is more hell | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:10:53 AM | | um yeah. I was in the millitary. I was an airborne ranger. i was in korea. i also was in mouadishu and the mans body who was drug through the streets because we were over there on a humanitarian mission and some of the other 28 that died were good friends of mine. Now have you been there and seen it first hand? i think not. now thats a staement until you know whats going on dont ask | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:15:20 AM | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@ bgrumling
One more comment on your
and for all you non-americans this debate in america is not even for you. stay out of our ploitics as short of human rights violations and genocide we should stay out of yours.
In Canada, it is our God-given RIGHT to health care. In Amercia, it is only a PRIVILEGE. Meaning, that if you don't have health insurance, you die because you can't afford to manage what ails you.
So, instead of accusing us Canadians of poking our noses where apparently, I believe this thread is for everyone no matter what country they are from, get yourself down to your nearest elected government official and vote to make a change so that your kids can grow up alive if they ever get sick and you can't afford their health treatments. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:17:46 AM | I am pro-choice to my core... actually, I'm pro-contraceptive! Having kids should not be left up to accident. That's another person and they deserve a healthy up-bringing by consenting parents subscribed to mature/ intelligent designs on constructing the new human in this world of ours. I have seen what happens when two kids mess up and try to play ''honorable''. It usually falls apart and the kid gets to come up pretty messed-up with alot of hurdles to overcome just to be up to par. I'm one.
We can't advance as a society until we start taking procreation seriously and refuse to leave it up to whim or accident. The psychology of a human is too heavily important to be left up to the chaotic whims of the irresponsible or chance.
I believe in procreation licensure only after successful completion of courses designed to overcome the parenting obstacles of the time and culture. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:20:53 AM | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Satyr9 on your post. I have seen how people try unsucessfully do the parenting thing, only to see the child(ren) brought up in an environment of sheer hell. And grow up a confused, lost human being.
I think it a "procreation licensure" course is a great idea!! | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:22:07 AM | | okay this is now heated. you know abortion is differnt in every country i will give you that. but until you have been where i have been and seen what i have seen you cant say anyhting. again in somila the blackhwk down incident. kids in korea being abondoned by their parents or girl 12 or 13 being prostitutes. 12 year old boys in the mideast having bombs strapped to themselfs and blowing themselfs up. genecide in bosnia because you are a different religion or race. SORRY BABY IS ALL ABORTION IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER AND IT IS IN THE THREAD LINES. And lets see its peter jennings ( a canadian) who went up against tobey keith (an american) on our airwaves on our soil and said the same thing. and tobey won and jennings lost. HUmm we americans back our own. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:24:30 AM | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@ bgrumling:
For some reason, you aren't getting the fact that I don't care about where you have been or what you think about Canadians, or any other race, creed, religions, etc.
The topic is Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Eff off eh. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:26:19 AM | | my kids mother and i are divorced. and you are right the kids should not pay the consquences. we do not use the kids as a weapon against each other. i can see the kids whenever i want. we are not amicable but we dont take things out of the kiddes either. and thats why you are right its a maturity factor in that area. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:28:30 AM | | again liberal not realizing. its not about where i have been or what i ahve seen. all the cases i sited overseas are in one way or another abrotion. and we get outraged at that but even though those forms of abortion are an outrage to civilized nations, we can kill babies. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:32:54 AM | | you just dont get it : ITS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. ITS RESPONSIBILTY FOR YOU ACTIONS. YOU LIBERALS WANT GOVERNMENT INTERFERNCE FROM CRADLE TO GRAVE AND WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE CARE OF YOU. YOU ALL HAVE NO CONCEPT OF TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS. WE NEED LESS GOVERMENT AND MORE OF PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY AND PEOPLE GROWING UP AND BEING MATURE AND SAYING I F****ED UP AND NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR MY OWN ACTIONS. LIBERALS LIVE IN A DREAM WORLD. CONSERVITIVES LIVE IN A MORAL UTOPIA. I AM REALLY NEITHER CONSERVITIVE OR LIBERAL I AM A REALIST | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:38:28 AM | This is a Global Forum where people from all over the world are entitled to their Opinion. If "you" are looking for an "americans only" forum - I suggest you look elsewhere.
Many of us have been many places - so what. I don't need to post my history, my travels etc for my opinion to be just as valid as anyone elses on these forums.
OT - Just another reason I would Not date a preacher/pro-life "Advocate" .. Suggesting that others have no right to their opinion or the expression of such - shows that you are closed minded and likely not as educated as you would like to pretend.
No .. I wouldn't date someone who had a drastically different view point on something I feel is important. The day may come when I am asked to "be there" for someone who is going through this very difficult life decision - I don't need a 'partner' getting in the way of what I believe is right.
We are All entitled to our opinion on The Topic. Again - I suggest if you want to segregate this topic - you choose your own 'local' forums to do so. Remember the creator of this site is Canadian eh!
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:49:26 AM | OT - Just another reason I would Not date a preacher/pro-life "Advocate" .. Suggesting that others have no right to their opinion or the expression of such - shows that you are closed minded and likely not as educated as you would like to pretend.
One or two posters, who are also pro-life, do not represent a "universal attitude". There have been some "pro abortion" posters, who likewise, with whom it would not be possible to have a reasonable disagreement IRL, within a relationship or not. In fact, it's that that lies at the crux of the OT.
Reasonable people can discuss things in an atmosphere of mutual respect, and actually listen to the other's point of view and try to understand how the other views it. Normal people can disagree, without demonizing or dismissing each other. If it's not abortion, it will be something else, but no two people will agree about every issue. If it's an issue that creates passionate response, to the point where he/she needs to demonize the other side, then, no, it won't work in relationships or even friendships.
We've seen a lot of examples in this thread of those with whom it wouldn't be possible to have a reasonable discussion, and respectfully "agree to disagree". I think, too, there are many posters who, if I encountered them in real life, it would be entirely possible to get past this issue, if we were otherwise "interested" in each other.
brumling, I respectfully suggest that you are consistently violating posting rules. Your posts don't make any attempt to relate to the OT, and you are making derogatory comments about other people, and the c0untries they live in. Point of fact, this is a Canadian website, that we are allowed to be on as "guests" of a Canadian. I doubt that any of the Canadian moderators would agree that Canadians don't have a right to comment on the topic.
Please, don't get the thread deleted, and yourself banned. Please stop the off topic sequential posts. You only make pro-lifers look loony, and for those who are moderately pro-choice more convinced that pro-lifers are unreasonable zealots. People rarely listen, when someone else is shouting or name calling. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:53:48 AM | i m a man of my convicitons call me wrong call me right/ but i bring my better angles to every fight/ you may not like where im going/ but you sure know where ive been/ hate me if you want to/ love me if you can/
and before all the angry words turn to hate/ somtimes i think we should agree to disagree/
the great american song writter , poet, and phiospher mr tobey keith | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:59:20 AM | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@ RenaissanceMan1950
We've seen a lot of examples in this thread of those with whom it wouldn't be possible to have a reasonable discussion, and respectfully "agree to disagree". I think, too, there are many posters who, if I encountered them in real life, it would be entirely possible to get past this issue, if we were otherwise "interested" in each other. I would date you if you weren't so far away!
Thank you for your comment, it really is the truth. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 11:21:07 AM |
I am not sure how you can compare pro-life to Michael Vick's abusing his fighting dogs, but that was interesting too.
You're twisting my words, I used Mr. Vick's situation to illustrate the hypocrisy that we live with in the U.S. To illustrate that many people value a dogs life more than a human one. To show the lengths and depths of the hatred many people have for those that have what they don't. I promise not to twist your words if you ever make a logical argument for taking an innocent life (< this goes for all posters ). Don't twist mine..
And to use military action to justify abortion..? What is that all about? First, all military personell are volunteers here in the U.S. as I was when I served. If you 'volunteer', you should expect there is a possiblity that you could lose your life in the course of your service. If you could take a poll of the unborn as to weather or not they'd like to volunteer for an abortion, I'd doubt you'd get many takers.
How do the 'pro-choice' (why don't you call it what it really is MURDER) people think it's logical to say support of death penalty is as being as bad supporting abortion? As others have said if you don't know the diff. between taking the life of a murderer for his crimes and killing an innocent human baby ...something is not right.
I could also date someone who's pro choice. As we'd have this discussion or chose not to and that would be the end of it. It would not have to be an issue that is in front of us constantly. It is what it is. But I'm not going to change my postion because I like or want sex. I find that comment to be very insulting. And any person who changes their opinion because of what their date or SO thinks is not being honest with themselves... | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 11:58:17 AM | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I promise not to twist your words if you ever make a logical argument for taking an innocent life (< this goes for all posters ). Don't twist mine..
Hmmm, sounds like a threat to me....but I'll entertain you.
If you were to read my profile, I am passionate about animals and dogs. And as far as Vicks dogs go, they are/were living, walking, breathing, standing on the earth, alive creatures that were being brutally tortured. And they were being unecessarily subjected to physical and emotional pain. And I cannot stand any animal OR human being subjected to those type of pain(s). Most of Vick's dogs were euthenized, as they were too emotionally or physically "damaged" to be stable enough to be anything close to a trustful, loving pet. Yes I do agree, sometimes death is kinder...it is not fair for any dog to live out its life in a cage because of their unpredictability.
And as far as innocent lives go, I don't consider a clump of cells living, walking, breathing, standing on the earth, alive "anything" until it proceeds out of the uterus (either by live birth or cesarean section) and takes a breath and keeps on breathing. We do not know if those clumps of cells feel anything until they reach a certain point of formation, and that is a scientific fact. My father was Jewish and I do believe in the part of that faith that firmly states that the soul does not enter the baby until its first breath is taken. I can't change what I choose to believe, just like you cannot either.
My point is: If a woman is going to be subjected to any type of emotional or physical pain (or death) by carrying out a pregnancy, then she should have the right to decide about HER life and whether she wants to terminate or not. Like I said before, if the ship (mother) goes down, so does the crew (baby). It is as simple as that.
And I must ask that if you are so passionate about stopping these women from making that decision, then may I suggest that you support her and the child financially, emotionally, and give them both unconditional love and support for their entire lives so that they won't be a burden on the social system. And so that they don't turn out similar to Vicks poor dogs; broken, abused, and of no value to themselves or society. Our prisions are full of men and women like that.
I do not see any agencies that do that, not here in Canada anyways. But I think it would be a good idea. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:08:58 PM | | ^^^^ There they go again .. twisting.. You should reread my post if you 'read' threat anywhere in there it's in your mind.. I'm not going to respond anymore to twisters.. Knock yourselves out.. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:12:22 PM | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey man, you asked for an explaination, and I gave it to you. You are free to comment on what I just posted. Take it or leave it, your choice. No pun intended, of course. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:43:48 PM | It goes back to ethics, which for many, are rooted in religion, but society is based on certain ethical norms, separate and apart from religious belief. In every civilized society, the taking of innocent life is against the law. Protecting innocent life is an expectation of a duty of government. In our society, a woman who delivers a baby, and an hour later throws it into the dumpster, would be prosecuted. So, it's where do we draw the line, on when a viable human life exists, that is a reasonable discussion, in terms of public policy.
I'm all for a good discussion, without all the 'polarization', RM. I'm actually a mix of both sides in some ways - I'd support 'the morning after pill' for rape victims, I have issues with the government forcing a woman to have a child that was caused by a violent crime. On the flip side of that, I'm probably more pro-life in that I *don't* think that abortion should be a means of "birth control", people should take responsibility for their own protection - then again, I'm also very opposed to the "far right" opinion that we shouldn't teach about birth control in schools - sorry, but 'abstinence only' education doesn't work all that well when you are dealing with teens full of raging hormones still trying to become adults. I really, myself, don't get the concept of being anti-abortion *and* anti-birth-control, it seems to be if you don't approve of the former you should support the latter (pro-BC-education)?
That being said, if it were a case of, say, a 4mo pregnant woman in a coma after a car accident, where she stood an 80% chance of dying if they c-sectioned the baby, and the baby would stand maybe a 10% chance of survival... or say they aborted the child and she had a 75% chance of survival after... I dunno. I personally would *NOT* want to have to make that decision, my wife or my unborn child, I couldn't imagine having to make that choice - and my personal feelings on that is that it should be a family decision, not a government decision. I don't know how you could possibly "legislate" that, and I think (personal opinion) that it should be left to the family based on the opinions of the medical experts (doctors) on the chances. It would most certainly rip *me* apart emotionally, and I would respect the decision of the person making that choice, because I know it would be probably one of the hardest, painful, and most thought out decisions they would ever have to make in their life. I can't see how you cold really legislate "life of the mother vs. life of the unborn child" when both are at risk - both have a 'right to life' don't they?
Its a far reaching ethical & moral decision, and I worry when I see the extremes of "black and white" views. In my accident example above, RM, I would think that 4mo (16+ weeks) is probably a 'viable human life' (in my view anyways) - but my example might widen the discussion of 'where we draw the line' from a simple black & white "# of weeks" to a more gray area. Unfortunately, there is so much polarization on the topic, so much "we're right an you're wrong", that it doesn't seem that 'reasonable discussion' is very likely.
Black & White views tend to spout 'easy answers'. Nazi Germany had an "easy answer" to the "Jewish problem", I doubt anyone here thinks it was a good one. While I personally am "pro death-penalty", I also know a quite a few people have since had their convictions overturned from DNA evidence - so I know the legal system isn't perfect, and I wonder about the 'right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' of those imprisoned on death row for 20years, unjustly? We've had religious wars over the ages where both sides battled the 'infidels' ("the other side") - which was right and which was wrong, and was "black and white" the best solution? No real easy answers. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:58:57 PM | Re: Post #121
I agree with everything said in this post. I would not venture to offer an opinion, in the sorts of situations given as examples in this post. Obviously, with the life of the mother in question, most people would choose the life of the mother. Had my ex-wife been in that situation, and she were in a coma, I would have given medical consent, as her spouse, for abortion.
In reality, Roe v. Wade is never going to be overturned completely. Adult women are not going to lose the "right to choose". However, there are reasonable restrictions on that right, that would be consistent with laws and regulations in place in regard to other surgical procedures, that would maintain society's ethical duty to protect innocent life, without taking away the rights of women, such as using the morning after pill, and even allowing first tri mester abortions at the whim of the woman, while protecting the life of a preborn baby that has passed the point of viability (roughly 22 weeks), except to save the mother's life.
cityhorse woman----- I must ask that if you are so passionate about stopping these women from making that decision, then may I suggest that you support her and the child financially, emotionally, and give them both unconditional love and support for their entire lives so that they won't be a burden on the social system.
I can't speak to how things are in Canada, but in the United States, a pregnant woman could contact Catholic Charities, Lutheran Social Services, The Salvation Army, or in most states the "Right to Life" groups, and be given all sorts of alternatives, and support networks. Through the Illinois Right to Life group, I know that there is an informal network of "foster families" who will take in a pregnant woman, and support her thr0ugh the pregnancy, and the early period following a child's birth, and groups that will "adopt" a mother and child as a church effort.
There is a waiting list for infant adoption in the United States, so most women who are considering abortion, have that alternative available.
"Demanding" that individuals directly support a woman and her child through his/her life, or else "shut up" is a bit of a stretch. The social programs exist for a reason, as does the extended family. I know that, were one of my daughters to have a child outside a relationship, and wanted to keep the child, either one could move in with me, and I would help raise and support my grandchild. I think most parents would do the same, given the opportunity. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:19:01 PM | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but in the United States, a pregnant woman could contact Catholic Charities, Lutheran Social Services, The Salvation Army, or in most states the "Right to Life" groups, and be given all sorts of alternatives, and support networks. Through the Illinois Right to Life group, I know that there is an informal network of "foster families" who will take in a pregnant woman, and support her thr0ugh the pregnancy, and the early period following a child's birth, and groups that will "adopt" a mother and child as a church effort.
I would think that they would have that in Canada too. And I would hope that any woman who is in crisis because of an unexpected pregnancy, go there and be counselled. I honestly believe that every life is a blessing, please don't get the idea that I think otherwise. But I don't feel that women should be "demanded" to produce a child either, especially if they are not in a physical or psychological state to endure 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth.....and I know that there are alot of loving, giving, special couples that cannot have children of their own that are waiting to adopt.
This is such a contentious issue, I realize it. But I just don't want the government, church, or otherwise to dictate on anyone's body, male or female. Would you want the government, lets say for example, tell you that you have to wait a certain amount of time to remove a tumor? | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:33:38 PM |
Would you want the government, lets say for example, tell you that you have to wait a certain amount of time to remove a tumor? That is exactly what we will have, just as soon as we adopt hillary care. Gee, theres a problem with our health care system ! I know ! lets do whats failing in canada and europe !!
"Nationalize" our banking system
"Socialize" our health care system
"Nationalist, socialist , where oh where have i heard these words before??
somewhere in germany i think!? | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:51:20 PM | | The whole Pro-life vs Pro-choice issue will never end. It is hard for alot of men out there who believe in Pro-life when most of the population of women believe it is their body and they can whether to kill a human being. So far when I tell a woman I am Pro-life they give me funny looks. They get defensive and say they can do whatever that want to themselves. It pretty much ends any chance of having a relationship with any woman. | |
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| Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice in Dating *scary music swells*
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:51:28 PM | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey rickeyes58, please read my post on the American healthcare system where it is a priviledge to have health care, instead of a right. A group of people need to put on a cape and demand better and more easily accessible health services. People are dying because they don't have health plans!
Anyways, I am off topic my dear rickeyes and so are you. I can't comment anymore about this because I'm too pooped to type anymore.
Be well everyone. | |
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