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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/4/2009 5:36:25 PM | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ummm, let me not jump to conclusions. If, by any chance that sarcastic jab at the end was directed at me, hmph! I'm so wounded. If it wasn't, all the better! If you think I was speaking to you, as opposed to a generalized "people" who have posted with a cavalier attitude about the loss of human life, then you need to get a little grip on your defense mechanism. And if you are implying that I suggested we go to war, once again, reading comprehension. My statement was about empathy, about caring that innocent people were getting slaughtered, and the world should make it known, through commentary, not war, that it's not acceptable. To stand idly by, would be akin to witnessing physical abuse of a child by his/her parent, and not saying anything because it's not your business. | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/4/2009 6:03:03 PM | | I agree with everything that kuddlekitty says cause she's really really cute! | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/5/2009 12:50:22 PM |
I suggest that you look up Noam Chomsky, a very intelligence (and Jewish) intellecual who will no doubt teach you a few things about Isreal Noam Chomsky was born, educated, and has lived and worked in the United States his entire life. His father was from the Ukraine, and his mother from Belorus. He is a linguist, not a political scientist, not a historian, not a socialogist. The only difference between me and him when it comes to Israel is that he's got a much bigger soapbox.
Saying that he is an expert on Israel because he is Jewish is like saying I'm an expert on England because my family came from there a few hundred years ago. | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/5/2009 4:12:44 PM | | Anyone can become an expert on Israel if they read about it. I did not imply a hidden talent due to his cultural background. I apologize if my words were not clear. Honestly it wouldn't have changed anything if I had omitted his heritage from my post. and yes, he does have a bigger soapbox... and that might not be the only thing. He's got the ears and minds of millions of people, highly educated, poltically motivated people... | |
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wudger
| Joined: 12/20/2007 Msg: 105 | |
| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/5/2009 6:53:44 PM |
As far as comparing Kent State to what’s been happening in Iran, please consider the fact that Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young were all over the American airwaves not long after with “Four Dead in Ohio.” To my recollection no radio stations were ever shut down. Nor recording execs were intimidated, jailed, or executed. Even at the notorious Chicago riots during the Democratic National Convention in 1968 the American evening news programs broadcast the crowds chanting, “The whole world’s watching! The whole world’s watching!” Why do you think that iconic video still exists today?
umm no. Four Dead was banned from most mainstream rock radio stations for a quite a while after kent state. nothing but underground radio and university radio stations played it.
and the DNC 68 convention may still have footage out there but you seem to completely forget the Chicago 7 who went to jail for sometime, the beating of major news correspondents, etc etc. and remember that they came in the wake of the assassination of both MLK and RFK, strong leaders of the protest movement. | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/5/2009 9:03:25 PM |
umm no. Four Dead was banned from most mainstream rock radio stations for a quite a while after kent state. nothing but underground radio and university radio stations played it. You're not trying to say the government banned the song, are you? Don't you think certain commercial stations might've made that decision for themselves, based on business?
and the DNC 68 convention may still have footage out there but you seem to completely forget the Chicago 7 who went to jail for sometime, the beating of major news correspondents, etc etc. and remember that they came in the wake of the assassination of both MLK and RFK, strong leaders of the protest movement. I'm not saying all was well in these events and prosecutions. But didn't Abby Hoffmann actually call into a buddy's (NY?) radio program regularly to give updates on the progress of his trial? Considering his famous antics in the courtroom which p!ssed off the old judge so much, I'd say he wasn't violently coerced into any confession or anything. | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/5/2009 9:58:39 PM |
He's got the ears and minds of millions of people, highly educated, poltically motivated people... And given that they ARE highly educated, politically motivated people, they are either going to
a) use him as a propoganda tool HEY LOOK! THIS SMART GUY SAYS ..... or b) ignore him as somebody Yet Another Intellectual(tm) who thinks he's better to everybody else because he's had an edumacation and stuff.
When he talks about linguistics, I'll listen - his work has had a *major*impact in the computer industry. Other than that, he's just another schmo at the bar with a beer and an opinion
To be fair ... other people lionize him and spread the Gospel according to Noam a lot more than what he does - I've often suspected that he's probably embarrassed by the fawning some people do over him, like he's the second coming ..... | |
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wudger
| Joined: 12/20/2007 Msg: 108 | |
| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/5/2009 10:29:59 PM | "You're not trying to say the government banned the song, are you? Don't you think certain commercial stations might've made that decision for themselves, based on business?"
yeah right. the most popular band in the country at the time with a number one selling album. very bad for business.
and as for abby, nut though he may have been, have you spent much time in Cook County jails? and he only called in before the trial. do you really think he was phoning radio shows from his jail cell? | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 7/6/2009 2:46:20 AM | ^^^ No, I can't say I've spent much time in Cook County jails. (Have you?) I'll retract my item about his phone calls during the trial because I can't find a citation to back it up. Everything Abbie Hoffman did was done with the presence of the media in mind, which he used brilliantly to amplify his efforts. "The whole world's watching! The whole world's watching!"
Since we're discussing repression in Iran in the current thread I'll call your attention back to the fact that the political opposition there doesn't have benefit of media coverage. That's a great part of the issue. Their government has disabled the ability for the whole world to watch them!
For an interesting discussion of Abbie Hoffman and his actions, including the Chicago trial (pg. 42), please see: http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-12202003-145735/unrestricted/France_Jr_thesis.pdf I guarantee you nobody in Iran will be acting up in quite the same way as Abbie Hoffman was able to do here, both in and out of courtrooms.
------------------------ I said:
"You're not trying to say the government banned the song, are you? Don't you think certain commercial stations might've made that decision for themselves, based on business?"
Then you responded with:
yeah right. the most popular band in the country at the time with a number one selling album. very bad for business.
Again, I'll ask, you're not trying to say the government banned the song, are you? If that's what you're saying please provide some backup for your claim.
The government didn't ban the Dixie Chicks from radio, either, after their tiff with the Bushies. Certain radio stations/networks refused to play their music. The commercial entities made the decision for themselves, which is a helluva lot different from brutal government repression of the media. | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 8/12/2009 9:44:44 AM | Uhhh, yes they are pure victims. When was the last time your life was at stake because you protested about anything. How free do you feel to get on these forums, show your face and say anything you want Well, there are thought police all over the internet and while publishing unpopular views detached from the common misperceptions prevalent in this country might not get one arrested ... doing so CAN make one subject to reprisal attacks which can run the gamut of losing employment, to having your property damaged, or being physically attacked.
i.e. Your insistance that Iranian protesters are 'pure victims' ... were 'peaceful' and lily white ... sorry but that does not comport with reality, or the facts of the matter, which is that the so called 'peaceful protests' turned into chaotic and violent riots as soon as the sun went down on June 13th, the day after the election.
There is plenty of evidence around, just look at all the photos ... showing protesters attacking police, and lighting up Tehran with burning cars and busses. Caling it 'peaceful protest' is merely a framing trick of the media campaign and propaganda. | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 8/12/2009 11:16:49 PM | ^^^
There is plenty of evidence around, just look at all the photos ... showing protesters attacking police, and lighting up Tehran with burning cars and busses. Caling it 'peaceful protest' is merely a framing trick of the media campaign and propaganda.
I encourage you to provide us with links to your evidence. I would readily alter my view of the situation with convincing evidence.
Thank you. | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 8/13/2009 10:31:23 AM | I encourage you to provide us with links to your evidence. I would readily alter my view of the situation with convincing evidence.
I've read this complete thread Where4 ... along with hundreds of others regarding the Iranian elections ... you have to dig pretty deep to get to the truth of the matter seeing as how 99.9% of all commentary and news reports parrot 'The Stolen Election Meme'. So I applaud your attitude, that you might ... 'alter my view of the situation with convincing evidence' ... as that is what I believe most impartial and honest folks should do.
In support of my previous comment about calling something by another name as a favorite framing technique of all political media, such as calling something 'peaceful' when it really is not. Doing a google search I looked for articles from June 13th, the day this all (ostensibly) started.
A group of images showing street clashes between Basij and 'reformists' ... over 3 days June 13 - 15 . Most are captioned as protests turned riots. http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_disputed_election.html
As they say a picture can tell a thousand words ... but it is important to note that still images generally do not denote what came immediately before or after.
From CNN ... this byline on June 13th: Ahmadinejad hails election as protests grow
The ongoing street protests have been viewed as remarkable in a country where anti-government sentiment is not looked upon kindly by those in power. In the aftermath of the vote, street protesters and riot police engaged in running battles, with stones thrown, garbage cans set on fire and people shouting "death to the dictatorship."
People leaned out of windows and balconies to watch the throngs of protesters march, many of whom were Moussavi supporters and conducted largely noisy but peaceful demonstrations.
Later in the evening, an agitated and angry crowd emerged in Tehran's Moseni Square, with people breaking into shops, starting fires and tearing down signs. Two sides of people faced off against each other in the square, throwing rocks and bottles and shouting angrily. CNN apparently didn't believe it newsworthy to report the buses, cars, and gasoline stations that were torched that night ... although there is a picture of a burning bus featured within the article ... interestingly though I can not get the other pictures or the linked video to load (captioned as ... Watch angry protesters take to streets »), but perhaps they might for you.
Then there is this bit from the same article:
Before the vote count ended, Moussavi issued a sharply worded letter urging the counting to stop because of "blatant violations" and lashed out at what he indicated was an unfair process. Moussavi said the results from "untrustworthy monitors" reflects "the weakening of the pillars that constitute the sacred system" of Iran and "the rule of authoritarianism and tyranny." Independent vote monitors were banned from polling places. "The results announced for the 10th presidential elections are astonishing. People who stood in long lines and knew well who they voted for were utterly surprised by the magicians working at the television and radio broadcasting," Moussavi said in his statement. Iran, he said, "belongs to the people and not cheaters." http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/13/iran.election/index.html
What? That paragon of virtue and leader of the reform movement 'urged' that counting the votes be stopped?
Well, where exactly have we heard that one before?
Oh yes, that is so very very democratic ... and why not (?) ... if it worked in Florida, then why not Tehran.
caw | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 8/13/2009 12:26:26 PM | I started on June 13th as it is quite important to understand how this all began.
Regarding Mousavi's commentary above in statements released June 13th, the day after the election ... "urging the counting to stop because of "blatant violations" and lashed out at what he indicated was an unfair process. Moussavi said the results from "untrustworthy monitors" reflects "the weakening of the pillars that constitute the sacred system" of Iran and "the rule of authoritarianism and tyranny." Independent vote monitors were banned from polling places."
What is quite interesting in searching amid the millions upon millions of pages all touting 'The Stolen Election Meme' is the overwhemling absence, nor any description, what amounts to a stunning lack of deatil about the Iranian electoral process itself. One would think that such information might be more readily available, or found important, if the media were honestly concerned with Iranian votes cast in this past election in Iran. Yet one actually has to hunt to find anything written about it.
From an article by Mark Weisbrot titled 'Was the Iranian Election Stolen? Does It Matter?'
After searching through thousands of news articles without finding any substantive information on the electoral process, I contacted Seyed Mohammad Marandi, who heads the North American Studies department at the University of Teheran. He described the electoral procedures to me, and together we interviewed, by phone, Sayed Moujtaba Davoodi, a poll worker who participated in the June 12 election in region 13 (of 22 regions) in Tehran. Mr. Daboodi has worked in elections for the past 16 years. The following is from their description of the procedures.
According to their account, there are 14 people working at each polling place, in addition to an observer representing each candidate. Most polling places are schools or mosques; if the polling place is a school then the team of 14 people would include teachers. There are 2-4 representatives of the Guardian Council, and 2 from the local police. After the last votes are cast, the ballots are counted in the presence of the 14 people plus the candidates' representatives. All of them sign five documents that contain the vote totals. One of the documents goes into the ballot box; one stays with the leader of the local election team; and the others go to other levels of the electoral administration, including the Guardian Council and the Interior.
The vote totals are then sent to a local center that also has representatives of the Guardian Council, Interior, and the candidates. They add up the figures from a number of ballot boxes, and then send them to Interior. In this election, the numbers were also sent directly to Interior from the individual polling places, in the presence of the 14-18 witnesses at the ballot box.
Each voter presents identification, and his or her name and information is entered into a computer, and also recorded in writing. The voter's thumbprint is also put on the stub of the ballot. The voter's identification is stamped to prevent multiple voting at different voting places, and there is also a computer and written record of everyone who voted at each polling place I have read in other accounts that of those 14 ... 12 of them are elected to serve on the electoral committees from within their local communities ... which would indicate to me that they are people that are well regarded as being trustworthy and honest.
Note that there is a definitive paper trail throughout this whole process ... so if Mousavi's electoral monitors were barred from any number of polling stations, it should be easy to prove, gather up their names and have them submit their statements ... but surprisingly Mousavi has not done that (that I know of) ... nor did he participate in the offer presented to him by Ayatolla Kahmenei in the vote recount where he could have demanded to recount those areas where his monitors were barred ... which begs the question, why not? Could it be that his statements about this might be refuted by the signatures on those ballot forms?
Weisbrot continues:
According to the official election results, the incumbent president Ahmadinejad won the election by a margin of 63 percent to 34 percent for his main competitor, Mir Hossein Mousavi. This is a difference of approximately 11.3 million votes. Any claim of victory for Mousavi must therefore contain some logically coherent story of how at least 5.65 million votes (one half of the 11.3 million margin) might have been stolen.
This implies looking at the electoral procedures. There were approximately 45,000 polling locations with ballot boxes, not including mobile units. If these ballot boxes were collected by a central authority and taken away to a central location, and counted (or not counted) behind closed doors, this would be consistent with an allegation of massive vote theft. However, this does not appear to be the case.
If this information is near accurate, it would appear that large scale fraud is extremely difficult, if not impossible, without creating an extensive trail of evidence. Indeed, if this election was stolen, there must be tens of thousands of witnesses -- or perhaps hundreds of thousands – to the theft. Yet there are no media accounts of interviews with such witnesses.
Is it possible that, in most of the country, the procedures outlined above -- followed in previous elections -- were abruptly abandoned, with ballot boxes whisked away before anyone could count them at the precinct level? Again, many of the more than 700,000 people involved in the electoral process would have been witnesses to such a large-scale event. Given the courage that hundreds of thousands of people have demonstrated in taking to the streets, we would expect at least some to come forward with information on what happened.
For more on this line of reasoning I recommend folks look here ... 3 pages of commentary: http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/06/27/the-meaning-of-nedas-martyrdom/
To persianadvocate: I agree with your sentiment, but not your complaint. There are no "substantially probative reasons to doubt the integrity of these elections" which I've seen. Plenty of factless assertions, like yours: "vote counts of zero for Mousavi in areas where his staffers were present and reportedly voted." Where is the evidence? Where are these staffers? Let's hear them say it. We've had nothing but hearsay assertions, not a single witness has appeared to say what s/he did or saw, and especially conspicuous, not a single official election observer. A single, solitary, ballot box, in the whole of Tehran province, contains a zero vote for Mousavi, a box of 59 ballots (box 28, javadabad, varamin, tehran). Only 3 other boxes (totaling 629 ballots), contain less than 10 votes each for Mousavi. This is not suspicious. More precisely, it's not evidence of ballot-rigging, owing to the infinitesimal number ballots involved. Here are the ballot box counts in Tehran province (6,081 ballot boxes, if I counted them right, in 33 number-sequences), the tehran.csv file in the ballotspm directory of http://www.umich.edu/~wmebane/Iran2009_26jun2009.zip There's another 39,632 ballot boxes, in other files in that zip container, I didn't check them. The guardian council and the supreme leader both, publicly, and repeatedly, said, Mousavi could recount any boxes he doubted. This satisfies your complaint, that the state must provide a candidate a method to investigate his complaint. Where is Mousavi's complaint? Reportedly he listed some 600 grievances, in a letter to the guardian council, which has now said it investigated them all and found them without merit. Where is this letter? why hasn't Mousavi published it? (maybe he has, in Persian, I doubt it, else someone would have found it on the internet). The recount is where the rubber meets the road. Mousavi had it in his power to demand a recount of every ballot box at every polling station where his staffers voted and the count was zero (as you claim), and at every polling station where his observers were excluded (as others claim). Mousavi did not do it. He boycotted the recount. The obvious inference is, these claims are myth, it never happened, it's a lie. If it's fact, then it's a very simple matter to prove it, by a recount. And I refer again to the report of the fraud-proof methods of Iran's ballot-count procedures: Mark Weisbrot, "Was the Iranian Election Stolen? Does It Matter?" (June 28 2009), copy: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/06/28-3 Nothing is completely fraud-proof, of course, hence the need for a recount, a close examination of ballots, and such. I presume there's no ID on the ballots themselves (to preserve the secret ballot), the names and thumbprints appear on the ballot stub, the voters's receipt, that s/he received a blank ballot. So, yes, after it was done, the sealed boxes could be opened Mousavi ballots removed, Ahmadinejad ballots substituted. But so fast? 45,713 ballot boxes? The results were publicly reported in near real time (totals, not individual boxes, that's true). And, on recount, what of the multiple copies of the original record of the count (one copy sealed, with the ballots, in the ballot box) bearing multiple signatures, of the 14 observers (I presume), and the observers surely also made a personal record of the count, so they could report back, in real time, to their masters (e.g., Mousavi's observers). Mr. Weisbrot's report, of the ballot-count procedures, has since been reinforced. I put on my tinfoil helmet, switched on my recorder, and tuned in CNN and there (but not on the BBC) were live excerpts of the Press TV satellite feed of the recounts in progress, showing the transparent plastic ballot boxes, the multiple seals, fitted by the various official observers (I presume) (including Mousavi's), the forms inside the sealed boxes being removed, showing (I presume) the original count, bearing (I presume) the signatures of the observers (including Mousavi's), the recount live on TV by large numbers of people, local citizens (I presume), living in the polling station neighborhood where the recounts occurred, validating (I presume) the original count, with (I presume) an incidental correction, or difference of opinion, now and again. I don't know which polling stations this 10% recount covered. Mousavi had the power to specify every single polling station which barred his observers (another factless allegation). Were it true, that would be a smoking gun, but apparently it's not true, else he would have done it, specified those polling stations, it remains merely an anonymous allegation (i.e., from liars). We haven't heard a single word from a single observer saying s/he was excluded from a polling station, or from the ballot count. And until we do, it remains myth, it never happened, it's a lie, bought and paid for by the $500 million Bush/Obama spent to promote democracy in Iran without interfering in its internal affairs (as Obama lied on TV). Finally, I come to your sentiment, which I agree with. That Iranians (like citizens in most countries) have plenty to be unhappy about, and a sparse menu of people to vote for. That thuggish militia, for example, that's intolerable, that they are permitted (by whom) to invade people's homes, accost people on the street, abuse them for how they choose to dress, if they want to hold hands, and such. But this is not evidence of a rigged election. Mousavi was promoted as a "reform candidate" by US/UK/Israeli liars, their conspiracy to rubbish the election. Inside Iran, did a majority prefer Mousavi? a return to the past? backed by a crowd tarnished by financial corruption? Ahmadinejad is left-winger, who did what he said he would do (as far I know), he put the nation's oil money on the table of the people, not in the pockets of the elites (grants for housing, rural development, and such, the details of which I don't know). In Tehran city, scene of the protests, Mousavi whipped Ahmadinejad, 53%-44%, 3152 ballot boxes (in 3 groups, 2788+338+26), 4,114,384 valid ballots: Moussavi 2,166,245 (53%) Ahmadinejad 1,809,855 (44%) Rezaei 95,211 ( 2%) Karroubi 43,073 ( 1%) My guess is this, half the people in the protests, voted for Ahmadinejad, as the least worst candidate, and because of his socialist policies, and they protested, in addition, to show they weren't happy about it, their choice of candidates, and the omission of human rights, by the candidates, from their campaign promises. -CJ Harwood (Warlaw)
Its really a pretty fascinating conversation ... recommended reading.
caw | |
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| Iranian Election Fallout Posted: 11/10/2009 4:18:36 PM | there’s a fellow at my moms work that just return from iran last week, where he’s originally from. his home town in Tehran, and he was showing my mom cell phone video he took. My mom said there’d be a group of people, arms bound, at the top of this 3 story building. my moms like "oh what are they doing up there", then *push* right off the edge. Then another group taken up. She said one guy who was totally bound up fell right on his head. I don’t know how she could have continued watching, but eeks. Crazy. | |
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