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| | other people's kids or your tax dollars at workPage 2 of 3 (1, 2, 3) |
I would like to see criminal charges laid against women who do that, but with our Charter of Rights, it will never happen. Moreover, what would it change? A woman willing to abandon her child is not going to be bothered by a few months in custody. Plus, keeping a child away from mom immed after birth does not help the child bond at all.
I would like to see the death penality and strike 3 rule in effect here. IMO if you are not a contributing law abiding citizen, then you should not have the priviledges afforded to and paid by contributing law abiding citizens. We're dealing with kids here, criminal or otherwise, kids can only contribute if someone shows them how. Please stay on topic.
Personally I am neither pro life or pro abortion. To me it really depends on a lot of factors. Again, not wanting an abortion debate. But for Sue's (lunatic) proposal, abortion really needs no part in this discussion.
We are all at fault here parent or no parent. I couldn't agree more.
This will require parents, grandparents, schools and the justice to work together. There were some good ideas here like matching a good parent with a weaker parent. That is good but there is no clear way that one can determine what is a gooood parent. I don't think it's that hard to determine what is a good parent. Do you have kids? Are they well adjusted? Doing alright in school, attending regularly, not starting fights, shop lifting or hurting themselves? You're a good parent. Maybe not the best, maybe not ideal, but if you've figured out how to raise acceptably behaved kids, you can help someone else do the same. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 1:56:27 PM |
Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime. http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/air/air_vol16no1_2001.html Eugenics, (which is what YOU were promoting) and selective abortion for "the unfit" were entirely part of the Nazi regime.
However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, to fallaciously miscast an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparison the argument made were actually appropriate Yeah, his comparisong was appropriate. Which would mean you're abusing Godwin's law. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:28:08 PM | Eugenics, (which is what YOU were promoting) and selective abortion for "the unfit" were entirely part of the Nazi regime.
With the Nazis the abortion was compulsory, and usually accompnied with sterilization... I said offer the parents the OPTION of choosing to abort, or accepting all the extra financial costs should the child be a speacial needs person. In other words, making the parents responsible for their child, not making the taxpayers responsible.
To pull a quote from your original post which started the thread :
So- would you rather have people make a career off of "at risk" kids/youth on your dime, or do something yourself to help them out?
The other option ( besides people making a career out of these kids or doing something yourself to help them out) is to have the parents take full responsibilty for their children. Or perhaps have the laws in place so if society is to take some responsibility for their children then members of society can discipline people's children when they are acting inappropriately ( shoplifting, commiting acts of vandalism, setting fires, etc).
Yeah, his comparisong was appropriate. Which would mean you're abusing Godwin's law.
I don't have any swastikas ( I know the Nazis stole that symbol from another culture) I'm a bi crossdresser ( hardly a prime Nazi candidate) and I haven't said anything against the jews, gypsys, gays... he can call me a totalitarian based on some of my comments ( or perhaps a totalitarian wannabe ?) and I'd accept that due to what I have said here at times. As I pointed out, a person can be a totalitarian without being a Nazi.
My point on the posting of the Godwin's law material was that I've never seen flyin-high do anything other than tell people he doesn't agree with that their ideas are wrong or unworkable, doesn't explain why they're wrong ( just calls the poster a totalitarian or a Nazi) but doesn't propose any solutions of his own . He criticizes other people's suggestions/solutions but doesn't offer up any of his own for discussion.
It'd be like offering as your rebuttal to your opponent during a debate only the staement "you're wrong". Gainsaying someone's posts is hardly discussing/debating them.
Maybe in the future I should follow all my posts with the comment "flyin-high says this is wrong", that will save him from having to respond & he may have enough free time then to originate a new thread of his own. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:38:31 PM | I said offer the parents the OPTION of choosing to abort, or accepting all the extra financial costs should the child be a speacial needs person. In other words, making the parents responsible for their child, not making the taxpayers responsible.
The costs of raising a special needs child can vary from no more than any other child to tens of thousands yearly. Once they reach adulthood $100,000 is not unheard of.
And what would you do with these children if the parents won't or can't pay for them? Do we as a society have any responsibility to its most vulnerable citizens?
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:05:18 PM | | maybe parents with problem children should be made to pay for all associated costs by being given government jobs?..........good pay, benefits, and now you can see your tax dollars at work............. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:13:55 PM |
The costs of raising a special needs child can vary from no more than any other child to tens of thousands yearly. Once they reach adulthood $100,000 is not unheard of. And what would you do with these children if the parents won't or can't pay for them?
Dunno, what do YOU suggest we do?
I suppose if the parents can't or won't take responsibility for them we can send them to the churches to raise them, since the churches get tax breaks even tho religion is a business now. Or maybe make every parent having a child buy a speacial insurance coverage plan, that pays out the extra expenses of raising a special needs child. If your child is then born & isn't special needs, you can stop paying into the insurance but forfeit what you've paid into it prior to the birth. And have a special tax on manufacturers of alcohol ( since it can cause FASD ), with the tax going into costs of special needs children... not into general revenue.
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:43:47 PM | MESSAGE 26, 27, BLAH.....BLAH.....BLAH FIRST OFALL THIS IS A FORUM FOR DISCUSSION BY EVERYONE AND EVERYONES OPINION IS ALLOWED.
WHERE IN HELL DO YOU GET OFF TELLING ANYONE THEY ARE OFF TOPIC! IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT IS WRITTEN AND IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO RESPOND IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER, IGNORE THE POST OR COMMENTS.
FURTHERMORE, WHERE IN HELL DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REFER TO ANYONES POST AS LUNATIC? IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANYTHING ANYONE POSTS AND CAN'T BE ADULT OR RESPECTFUL - SHUT THE HELL UP & BACK OFF!
THE FORUMS ARE FOR EVERYONE, REGARDLESS IF THEIR OPINION IS THE SAME AS YOURS.
I HOPE THE MODS GET A PEEK AT YOUR CHILDISH BEHAVIOR. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 5:08:12 PM | ^^^It's "my thread" so that would be where I get off telling people when they're off topic or not. You may not have read the rules, but posts are supposed to stay on topic. If you'd like to start a thread on abortion, go ahead. The *forum* is open for discussion, but threads are to be limited to the topic brought up in the original post, or ones directly relevant to something said on a post. I'm trying to avoid you hijacking the subject.
I fail to see how I wasn't respectful, though regardless, given your appalling treatment of me in other threads, I'm not surprised if you have a bias against me. I certainly didn't feel the need to yell a post or tell you to shut up.
If "EVERYONES OPINION IS ALLOWED [sic]" then that would give me the right to refer to Sue's (And I meant susan_cd- little effort might allow you to notice that I have repeatedly just referred to her as Sue) post as lunatic. You I'd refer to as Haywire.
I hope the mods get a peek at YOUR childish behavior, because you either don't seem to know the rules at all, or are entirely selective in their application. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 5:37:58 PM |
We are all at fault here parent or no parent.
I couldn't agree more.
??? Could I have some clarification as to how "we are all at fault here, parent or no parent" ? And what exactly is the "fault" you're referring to ?
Sounds like that tired old defense lawyer refrain when defending young offenders, that "society is to blame" .
Or maybe that old bleeding heart mantra " If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 5:59:41 PM |
Could I have some clarification as to how "we are all at fault here, parent or no parent" ? And what exactly is the "fault" you're referring to ? The fault occurs when a society places more importance on money than it does on life.
Sue, it’s people like you who keep reinforcing the belief that money is more important than life… that’s why you’re part of the problem.
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 6:16:33 PM |
The fault occurs when a society places more importance on money than it does on life.
And again, after dissing my post you don't say what YOUR solution is to the problem C'mon flyin you can do it .
So out of curiosity, since money seems to be of no importance to you, how much ( roughly) do you donate to causes for special needs people?
Maybe you'd support evryone having all their $$$ (after the Govt. takes their taxes) put into a community pot & everyone can take what they need from it as required.
I'm thinking the fault may be people believing they should have a say ( or some control) on how individuals should spend their own money.
Yes, I think MY money is more important to me than some stranger's special needs child...your child your responibility. Anyone else here wanna be honest & admit they feel the same?
Guess the charity boxes at store checkouts collecting $$ for different animal shelters could be replaced with boxes for people collecting for those with special needs . Then people could if they desire make donations... that's the crux of it, making people choose to donate instead of forcing them to donate through taxes. But right now my money for charities goes to no-kill animal shelters, cancer funds, and the Salvation Army. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 6:21:27 PM |
The fault occurs when a society places more importance on money than it does on life.
Sue, it’s people like you who keep reinforcing the belief that money is more important than life… that’s why you’re part of the problem.
Hmmmm after a little more thought it occurs to me that you seem to think I'm part of the problem because I think I should have control over my money instead of giving control of it to society. I won't stoop to calling you a Nazi tho, you're obviously a communist.
Btw Stalin killed more people than Hitler | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 6:42:21 PM | Msg 33 - this thread is not "yours" - you meerly started it. I don't have anything against you - as I have not met you and I don't know you. Nor am I biased towards you or your comments. You and I may not see "eye to eye" on topics, but that is what discussion is for to create an opinion that would make others think, and possibly question their position. It can only work when rudness and personal attacks are void in the environment.
I do however, object to rude behavior in a public formun, where one person calls another person down, or uses disrespectful names to refer to a position. The "lunatic" comment was not called for - there are more adult and respectful ways to disagree with someone without talking down to them.
FYI I have read the forum rules regarding staying on topic. My comments were consistant with the topic's subject line "costs associated to other peoples children". FYI the comments don't have to personally suit you to be valid. Before you question my conversation skills, take a look in your own backyard.
In addition, I was not trying to hijack the thread or the subject - I was just broadening the conversation, without being rude, nasty or disrespectful to anyone.
My apologies for what you thought was yelling - my caps key was on and I didnt feel like rekeying after I had noticed it.. I didnt tell you to shut up - I said if you couldn't.....then.........
I did realize the "lunatic" comment was directed at Susan CD. That does not make what you posted any more right. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 6:50:02 PM |
I did realize the "lunatic" comment was directed at Susan CD.
Actually, it was directed at the comments I posted, not at me directly ( unlike someone who has referred to me as a "nazi" on more than 1 occasion). | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 7:21:23 PM |
And again, after dissing my post you don't say what YOUR solution is to the problem… C'mon flyin you can do it Physically and mentally disabled kids are born sometimes and the government gives the parents money… SO WHAT? What’s the problem? Why would I have a solution if I don’t see a problem?
You’re the one who has a problem with the current situation, and yet you keep asking me for a solution. You’re going to be miserable the rest of your life if you keep expecting other people to solve your problems.
you're obviously a communist. Nope… I’m an anarchist at heart, but since that doesn’t fit into societal norms, I had to settle for being a capitalist. The beauty of being a capitalist is that I can solve most of my problems by throwing money at them.
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 7:40:21 PM |
I can solve most of my problems by throwing money at them
Great, if that's what you choose to do with YOUR money, just as what I choose to do with MY money is great too.
Physically and mentally kids are born sometimes and the government gives the parents money… SO WHAT? What’s the problem? Why would I have a solution if I don’t see a problem?
The problem is tht isn't the government's money, it's the taxpayer's money. Ans as the originalpost that started the thread suggests :
As a society, we are creating kids that cost us a FORTUNE. CFS virtually never provides stability or security for kids, but costs much money to operate.
So- would you rather have people make a career off of "at risk" kids/youth on your dime, or do something yourself to help them out? (Or for some of you, do nothing and let evolution take it's course (which may involve your car getting stolen a few times...)
First, as a society WE aren't creating kids etc etc ( personally I've never gotten anyone pregnant)
And it also suggests we should do something to help them out.
So obviously the $$ from taxpayers isn't sufficient to deal with the problem, but there are so many other problems that need fixing ( the healthcare system, crumbling infrastructure, etc) that there never will be enough $$ from the taxpayers.
I have one client, who while at a McDonald Youth Services Placement, required 2 staff members at all times. Total cost to CFS: $800/day. That's $24000 a month to care for the girl
I did a quick search on the net for this Mcdonald Youth Services Placement & couldn't find anything so I'm guessing it's a job placement program that gets special needs youth employed at McDonald's. If that's the case, and the special needs person required 2 staff at all times maybe part of the problem is pretending some special needs people can function at regular jobs. No, we can't & shouldn't keep them locked up & removed from public exposure but don't pretend they can function as ( I wanna say "normal" but that's not politically correct) non-speacial needs people.
You’re the one who has a problem with the current situation, and yet you keep asking me for a solution. You’re going to be miserable the rest of your life if you keep expecting other people to solve your problems.
Not when the problem is people telling me how I should be using my money & time ( or how if I'm not part of the solution I'm part of the problem); that I can just ignore.
Anarchist at heart? So I guess that means if someone with anarchistic leaning wants to steal your money then they have your support ( if not necessarily your assistance and compliance with their wishes). | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 9:03:13 PM | At home on blackberry, not interested in full reply. However to temporarily clarify, I'm was never intending to discuss physical disabilites- I'll start a new thread on that later. I was referring to kids with "learning disabilities", conditions like FAS, incredibly low IQ's and behavioral issues.
Anyways, MYS is an organization that runs group homes and foster homes, and other programs. For my client, she needed to have two staff assigned to her where she lived. Had nothing to do with employment. Her behavior was generally so out of control, they had to have two adults to control her at all times. Needless to say, she experienced extensive abuse before coming into CFS care. (New thread on CFS later...) (And again, these are facts already in the public domain) | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/19/2009 11:13:48 PM | Don't even get me started on this topic... thank goodness its so late or I'd stay up to make a few comments on this and other subjects...
for instance...
What about making payments to EIC when you are NEVER allowed to apply for EI because you have a class 1 license?
I don't think it is fair if I have to pay the same for someone who has kids! Especially if I can't have them! | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:12:50 AM |
Anyways, MYS is an organization that runs group homes and foster homes, and other programs. For my client, she needed to have two staff assigned to her where she lived
OK ty for the clarification. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:15:19 AM |
What about making payments to EIC when you are NEVER allowed to apply for EI because you have a class 1 license?
The problems with EI is a subject for a whole seperate thread. For instance, once you've paid into EI the maximum amount you could get from them if you became unemplyed, why do you have to keep making payments? YOUR "insurance" is taken care of. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:25:42 AM | Hmmm... very interesting debate.
The purpose of my work is to improve society through education. I work with children afflicted with ADD, ADHD, FAS, ODD, EBD and a hundred other acronyms. I have seen the millions of dollars put into attempting to assist these children... yes, I said "attempting" and I say attempting for several reasons.
1. It is not the child's fault they have this conditions. Most often, children who have these afflictions, especially with FAS, are born with them. This means that "Mom" messed up while pregnant and caused the problem. I am frustrated by this immeasurably. I listen to parents complain about these kids, and yet, they are the reason the child has the affliction. I wish we could sterlize these parents - because they often have 4 or 5 and will not take responsibility for causing the problem. All we as a society can do is try to improve the child's life.
2. There are parenting classes through Healthy Child Manitoba. There are hundreds of social workers, doctors, teachers, aids and programs to assist these parents become better parents - but they won't participate in the program and we can't force them to - which takes us back to the sterilization thing...
3. When a child has been raised in an abusive environment, they live for immediate gratification. The moments where life is good - and that is often found in material things. The fastest way to get $$ as a kid? Join a gang. When a kid can earn $4,000 a week selling drugs, or stealing, why shouldn't they? All that kid has known is pain and humilation at home - take them away and CFS can't deal with them because of the numbers of kids in the system - and we're back to the sterlization of the parents again...
It's a growing problem. You have to have a licence to drive, fish and hunt. You have to be 18 to vote. We have decided as a society that to limit those who have children is against human rights - and that the children who are born with these afflictions are not responsible, but we cannot punish those who are - and so the cycle continues. Am I advocating denying people rights? No, I just see an easy way out. Society is obsessed with "Not In My Backyard", "It's not my fault"... me me me, mine mine mine.
How do we stop it? Cut people off of assistance that have more than one child with FAS or something else because they won't take responsibility? Most of them have FAS or something else from their parents...so that won't work. Put abusive parents in jail? Then the kids go to CFS and, yeah, THAT's working. Many people foster because they get paid to do it, not because they want to help. Those who should foster, don't--because they don't want to corrupt their own kids with these "problem" children.
I have no solution, but I fight in the trenches every day. I bite my tongue, smile and forge ahead, and every once in a while a child escapes the cycle, because I was there.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step - but if you aren't willing to take that first step, then get off the road, because dammit--you're in my way. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/20/2009 6:34:05 PM | | As stretched as MacDonald Youth Services is, they do very good work, as does St. Amant, Children's Special Services and Child and Family Services. Are there distinct gaps?...definitely! I see a lot of discussion on FAS, which you are blaming on parents, but there are lots of learning and behavioural disabilities that are not "caused", but they happen...and they are becoming an epidemic. For those of you who have never tried to , or had to access help, or know someone who does, you have no idea the impact that some of these organizations. Not all children or adults need the same type of assistance....and thank goodness for that. How about someone who has had a healthy pregnancy and still had a child with one of these "disabilities"? Not all of these children are beyond getting help and leading somewhat "normal" lives. How "normal" are all of your lives? Let's be human and show our hearts here people. I can't believe that there are actually people on here comparing funding for animals along side with funding for humans. Just my opinion....(and I love animals) there is NO comparison. Let's get our priorities straight and maybe the world would be a far better place. | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/20/2009 8:18:29 PM | I think people do not realize how sick we humans are getting as a whole...children are not only born to people who do reckless conduct..there are lots on hidden things which we are exposed to us thru with plastic and cooking pre done foods creates new effects on babies....we eat what percent of not fresh foods...problems come in waves from enviorment not conduct...please listen to your soul and realize there is more at play than simple conduct....it is a bigger issue to the why....
do not be fooled by the obvious kids. let your mind grow when you realize 1 in 166 is autistic................why??????????????????????????? not conduct but what?
do not settle for the world she is a changin..... we must not look away and pretend there is not something rottin in.....ok  but what effects on people did we just not realize with toxic toys when we where wee ones...see more angles than u can shake stick at...
a % is abusive people but is more alarming to know the % in normal conduct has been growing and that is the issue which gets smokescreend with stigma.,...becareful to clarify which issue we want to set into...
i agree when humans are that sick the mental health act must see changes to protect the unborn in society....agreed cuz you can mirror that into homeless neglect as well. IMO of course..
often humans with bad conduct indeed have a pattern in there life which is distructive to everyone it touches cuz it is a mental health issue...that effects everyone!!!
i can not agree more with protecting the rights of family members to rope in the out of control and a danger to himself or others.....that is the WEAK mental health act and the government refusing to deal on it. violence in family starts on that line again IMO.
Toxic effects on body gives many problems with baby...if they did not check ingredients in pet food and childrens toys did they check dye from our cloths.........hmmmmmmmmmmm????
don't even think about the why it is time wasted which gets u nowhere but back to the obvious spilt milk on floor ........picks up baby,,,,i don't care if eyes open it makes me happy......................can't help it is built in.....
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/20/2009 8:38:47 PM | ^^^^ very well said. That was totally my point:
1. not all of these conditions are caused through neglect or bad decisions
2. we need to deal with this.
No one seems to take responsibility. Ok...it's not your kid and I get that.....but what if you thought you did everything you could...and it was your kid? Do you think that all parents choose these things? No...they don't, but are we supposed to give up? Some of these causes may have even been in our control and we didn't know it. (ie. effects from lead paint). Children are our future.....whether you have them or others have them and all in all I believe that we ALL have some responsibility on society. There are ways to voice your concerns and make a difference. It may not be a big difference at first....but it can build momentum. Do these programs help everyone? No...but it's a start...and we have to keep going from there. Before you decide what you're going to do and whether or not you want to help...shouldn't you get the facts? | |
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| other people's kids or your tax dollars at work
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:08:23 PM | Agreed children are the CROWN JEWEL OF SOCIETY.....they are our future and if you don't care...."whomever" fine...
but do not pretend your tax dollars are for them for they have thier own pot and your pot is to wipe your azz when u get old ...set aside the notion your tax dollars do these things cuz your just in denial of the responsibility that you don't have to deal so you CAN have the choice of denial...no family member likes having to parent another adult....that is a yucky spot.....bin there done that.
if you know your name and what town you live in your what???in this province.
if you don't have a history with 1 doctor it is almost impossible and that is ridiculous in a society which will not risk a homecare workers health if the client has mice....it is a crooked deck for the entitled to have connections to place family in care without the judicial system involved....thats baked IMO.... | |
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