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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/21/2009 8:46:37 PM | | [qutoe]This unexpected development of technology has given rise to a new brand of revolutionaries (the bloggers), whose weapon is truth and whose strength is ethics, compassion and a desire for justice.I think this description of "bloggers" is a bit of wishful thinking. Of course it describes some people who blog, but definitely not the group as a whole. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/21/2009 9:36:42 PM | "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"........from Me and Bobby McGee, as crooned by the great Janis Joplin
Lots of discussion about freedom and free society here, well at least freedom in the ojbective sense.
But isn't freedom, within any society, personally defined by each individual? My sense of freedom in this society could be your perception of enslavement. A liberal feels perhaps a society is freer if it supports pro-choice. A conservative is likely to feel less free because of that.
If I can express my free will to my satisfaction, is that freedom? It the society tolerates my total expression, how could I see it otherwise? If it does not, how can I believe I am free?
Do you believe China is a free society? I teach people how to drive as one of the many hats I wear. Last year I trained a young Chinese woman, from Bejeng, working here in product design for a major corporation. This week, she brought her mother to the school. She's here for a long visit and they both want to ensure she can drive safely here in the USA.
The mother and I chatted a bit about the economy and the changes it wrought on us and on China and how we were linked. I asked her outright if she felt she lived in a free and just society and she sad she did. She was able to live her life as she wanted and felt completely free in a society most Westerners would see far differently.
At the same time, she suggested that our sense of freedom here in the USA was far more illusionary than we think. Our culture takes away much of our freedom, particularly as they relate to our belief systems.
It was an interesting view and I think accurate in any number of ways I can consider when I think about my sense of freedom in this society. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/21/2009 11:11:52 PM | | first of all..lets cut thru all the BS, my ADD wont allow me to read everything here but quite simply...if you are referring to the US ? NO, there is no more "free" society anymore(probably never was)... and in the world for that matter, these "leaders" have their own agenda along with corps. (media included) pushing it. free market is in the toliet with govt. "gettin their back" not to mention regulations upon regulations. As a "conservative" libertarian..these anarchists that want want a "free for all" is just a ludacris mentality. NO morals coupled with our laws???..ok , then lets see how you feel when i push you an IV bolus of morphine when there are NO morals or ethics involved(not that i would ever) but..to answer your question..no we are not "FREE" | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/22/2009 7:24:25 AM | | Society will only be as free as you care to make it. Of course that freedom is invariably rented with blood; it is therefore contingent on the cajones of the men & women within a society to pay that rent when it comes due. Failure to do so invariably sees freedom being evicted for a new tenant called tyranny. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/23/2009 1:05:56 AM | You don't think we actually live in a free society, do you ?? 100% ?? Hell, if we have even 40% freedom, you'd be pushing it.
Stop stop ! My stomach hurts !
Me thinks you're walking around with eyes wide shut too much.
If you think we're "free-er" because we don't get publicly hung anymore for stealing a loaf of bread..... well, hardy har har.
Today, it's just smoke and mirrors. The powers that be are a little smarter and not so obvious that's all.
"Free Society" - oxymoron if I ever heard one.
There has never been such a thing. Just ask the working drones, er, I mean middle class folk. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/23/2009 3:06:01 AM | It's true, a great deal of what we consider freedom is illusory.
How many people know what to do with freedom ?
Freedom to do the same damn thing everyone else is doing. Going to the same movies, taking the same vacations, eating the same food, thinking the same thoughts ? Is it freedom to be able to eat at any one of a million different fast food joints, all of them serving exactly the same hamburger ?
I've always been fascinated by how outlaw biker gangs insist they have a free lifestyle. Upon closer inspection you will find most of these gangs are as restrictive of personal freedom as the Marine Corps.
People like the idea of freedom, but they don't really want much of it.
What people really want is consistency and order. They want tomorrow to be the same as yesterday and today. They want a sense of belonging and are perfectly willing to sacrifice themselves to get it.
Some people try to reject the group mind set.
They purposely dress rebelliously and adopt an anti-social lifestyle. And what do they become ? Just another freak standing in line with all the other freaks in the side-show.
It's hard being freaky when everybody else is doing it too.
True freedom is far too difficult and takes too much personal courage for most people.
It's far easier to simply go along with the crowd.
Sheep and cattle afterall are not lonely. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/23/2009 3:20:11 AM | When I think of democracy and what it stands for, I just don't see that reflected in on our democracy. Yes, we follow the motions but the whole foundation of it is freedom. It recognizes that a free society is the most productive.
Just because we have a democratic society in writing though doesn't mean we actually live in one when very little is being done in the areas of checks and balances to prevent extremes. In concept, what is going on to society due to credit has thrown us back to a time when half of those colonizing North America were indentured slaves paying off unfair debt that they were often tricked into.
This is what communists and socialists feared about democracy. It would be an unjustified fear if there were enough checks and balances but there aren't. I actually think democracy, communism, and socialism function on the same concepts of trying to encourage freedom but they are all extremes. So maybe it's time we started to think about these concepts in a different way combining these extremes to counterbalance one another.
Everyone of these systems have their own merits and shortfalls that can be addressed by the others. Instead, our society got it in its head that communism and socialism were "evil" but when you look at the worst examples of these systems, you see it wasn't the system but the person in the drivers seat that was causing the issues. They were re-interpreting philosophy to adhere to their personal agendas. Sometimes even acknowledging these changes but as logical evolutions in the path to an ideal.
I think the same thing has happened to democracy. I think we are starting to realize it too. We haven't seen individuals wield this much power accept in dictatorships and monarchies. It has reached a point of unsustainability. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/23/2009 3:36:31 AM | RE Msg: 26 by JustDukky:
Bingo!! The founding fathers of the US (the one's who weren't secretly working for the Crown) tried to install enough checks & balances to prevent the subversion of their system. It was a valiant effort, but as even Jefferson would come to admit, the "loopholes" were sufficient to allow tyrants to take control if the people let them.
The loopholes were exploited and tyranny again reigned, but this time there was enough control of the press to fool the people. Over time (with some control of the educational system) the people were "dumbed down" enough to cover the tracks of the power elite (the true rulers of the countries) with ignorance. Have you heard about the recent MP expenses scandal in the UK? They were putting everything you could imagine on expenses, including family members on the payroll, their parents' homes, porn videos, even a duck house in the garden pond. It's been such a scandal that hundreds of MPs are likely to lose their seat, and the British public have lost faith in BOTH main parties, on the Right and the Left.
Nowadays, (and for the first time in nearly 200 years) it is only the internet (which they are desperately trying to censor) that gives us any semblance of true information (and education), hidden in a morass of lies & disinformation (deliberately injected in lieu of true censorship). Sadly, even the internet is censored. The MP expenses scandal has resulted in their expense reports being published on the internet. But due to national security concerns, sensitive information was blacked out. If you download the reports, 90% of it has been blacked out, leaving little left to even read.
This unexpected development of technology has given rise to a new brand of revolutionaries (the bloggers), whose weapon is truth and whose strength is ethics, compassion and a desire for justice. Their number grows by the day. Soon, we can expect to see another revolution, but not simply an American one; it will be global; it will be the people against their tyrants all over the world. This revolution has already started in Venezuela, but it won't end there; that was only the beginning. When this results in the American and British people rising up, and demanding true democracy, or just any system that is not full of corruption, then things will change. Right now, people are just complaining, but still accepting the current system. Is it any wonder that only 30% of the country votes? The other 70% simply don't see that their votes will change anything. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/23/2009 4:11:24 AM |
When this results in the American and British people rising up, and demanding true democracy, or just any system that is not full of corruption, then things will change. Right now, people are just complaining, but still accepting the current system.
The change is in progress. New societies are forming that will eventually replace the old, corrupt ones.
Is it any wonder that only 30% of the country votes?
No surprise there, but that's a good sign; I hope it drops to zero. How legitimate is a "government that nobody votes for and doesn't "represent anyone?
The other 70% simply don't see that their votes will change anything.
And they're right! Hopefully, not voting will send a message to "the powers that be" that we won't play their stupid games anymore. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 6/23/2009 5:02:02 AM | RE Msg: 35 by JustDukky:
When this results in the American and British people rising up, and demanding true democracy, or just any system that is not full of corruption, then things will change. Right now, people are just complaining, but still accepting the current system. The change is in progress. New societies are forming that will eventually replace the old, corrupt ones.
Those New-Age people are less apt to believe in traditional science, because most traditional science comes from either government-controlled universities, government-funded research labs, or from R&D departments funded by large Pharma corporations, big business. Science seems to be controlled by either government or big business, and hardly anyone thinks that either is interested in being either honest or fair to the people. About 45% of the country overall no longer even trust doctors. People in the UK have not lost faith in science. They have lost faith in the people who make science, and without them, there is nothing in science to speak about.
Is it any wonder that only 30% of the country votes? No surprise there, but that's a good sign; I hope it drops to zero. How legitimate is a "government that nobody votes for and doesn't "represent anyone?
I voted for the Green Party myself. But a lot of people voted for the BNP instead of Labour. This worries a lot of people, because the BNP (British National Party) are a right-wing fascist party. They believe in nationalism, a Britain for the British, which they define as whites, and sending all the immigrants where they came from. There is a heck of a lot that is similar between the BNP and the German's National Socialist Party, which was informally called the Nazis. What's even more worrying for many people, is that there was a huge increase for such parties, right across Europe.
The other 70% simply don't see that their votes will change anything. And they're right! Hopefully, not voting will send a message to "the powers that be" that we won't play their stupid games anymore. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/6/2009 11:50:37 AM | Okay, so thus far in this conversation, we have more or less established a rough outline of what philosophy over the past few thousand years has used to define freedom (using binary thinking) and people with strong opinions of anarchy have argued for their definitions of anarchy, and we've talked about maybe two different forms of government, but we haven't at all discussed the possibility of a society that is free - definitely a philosophical conversation, all opinions and no answers.
I think we need a fresh approach here. What we need to do is envisage an image of a society that IS free, in whatever way possible, and then establish what characteristics that society would have.
Oh, by the way, I think that if everyone in the world did not already know that the curent state of society is not completely free, and I can't do whatever I want and be happy, because there was one person out there who just hadn't figured it out yet, and they happen to stumble upon this thread and learn it here, then great job guys. You really managed to point out the obvious there.  | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/6/2009 4:12:32 PM |
What we need to do is envisage an image of a society that IS free, in whatever way possible, and then establish what characteristics that society would have.
Elements needed for a truly free society:
Natural (unwritten) Law and a judiciary to make rulings (no precedents either referred to or created -- saves paper and prevents changes to law)
Money created by and in the hands of "the people" (probably a social credit monetary system - superior to existing one)
Democratically selected administrators instead of "representatives" (no leaders, just public servants)
Military not required once nations dissolve (can be maintained for defense only until all "countries are "on board")
Complete transparency of all government/judicial function with "witnesses" from "the people" with the power to overrule legislation/adjudication if required.
I think that's about it...hope I didn't forget anything. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/6/2009 9:19:39 PM |
Elements needed for a truly free society:
Natural (unwritten) Law and a judiciary to make rulings (no precedents either referred to or created -- saves paper and prevents changes to law)
Money created by and in the hands of "the people" (probably a social credit monetary system - superior to existing one)
Democratically selected administrators instead of "representatives" (no leaders, just public servants)
Military not required once nations dissolve (can be maintained for defense only until all "countries are "on board")
Complete transparency of all government/judicial function with "witnesses" from "the people" with the power to overrule legislation/adjudication if required.
*sigh*..... Oh dukky, dukky..... what are we going to do with you ? This homo-utopius fantasy you keep dreaming about...... The vast majority of "humans" are indeed animals by natural instinct. The need to dominate everyone and everything else around them will never die, unfortunately. Testosterone driven men, in particular (AncientMuse ducks from the flying beer cans).
I think that's about it...hope I didn't forget anything.
Actually you did. You forgot to mention : "And free beer for everyone".
*cheesy smile* | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/7/2009 10:02:40 PM | @ Ancient Muse
Everybody has to have a hobby. Everybody has to dream and imagine. Everyone needs a purpose.
My hobby is playing on these forums. I have dreams of Utopia when I listen to "Imagine". My purpose is to take it out of the realm of dreams & imagination by showing everyone it could be their reality...if they want it enough to cough up a little courage.
Do you think they could be plied with liquor? 
Oh, well...Have a beer anyway...
Oh yeah...Give your SO one too...He probably needs one after throwing his last one away like that.... | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/8/2009 10:26:33 AM | Everybody has to have a hobby. Everybody has to dream and imagine. Everyone needs a purpose.
My hobby is playing on these forums. I have dreams of Utopia when I listen to "Imagine". My purpose is to take it out of the realm of dreams & imagination by showing everyone it could be their reality...if they want it enough to cough up a little courage.
It's funny you mention Lennon's "Imagine". That's my SO's all-time favourite song and he too dreams of a utopian future. You two should get together for a few dozen beers and draw up some blueprints of a new and improved (and much more viable) "venus project". 
I on the other hand like to think of myself as a realist (ok ok maybe the word pessimist fits better) when it comes to the future of society/mankind..... based sheerly on what I know of the world's history and what I see going on now.
I wish the people would pull their heads out of their butts and rally together to make huge changes. But unfortunately, society is filled with more sheeple than "ghandis" out there. The future looks bleak.
*sigh*
Man, I just realized how pathetically grim I sound......
A stiff shot of Crown Royal sounds great right about now....
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/8/2009 10:34:56 AM |
You two should get together for a few dozen beers
Works for me! Can't send an email for meeting cuz I don't want anyone seeing a drunken Duk, Maybe you guys'll have to check out my profile & contact me so we can all get loaded together... | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/8/2009 11:39:58 AM |
unfortunately, society is filled with more sheeple than "ghandis"
Correction: The world is filled with Gandhis in sheeps clothing.
The only problem is that they've been fooled by their own disguise. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/8/2009 11:48:55 AM | "Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose"
Just wanted to get that tune rolling in your head...lol.
We all heard of the NWO
maybe thats exactly what we need
a re-do so to speak.
but those letters alone make people get defensive.
The world is in a mess everywhere you look
religion ,financial , health....its all taking a sh!tkicking
we need to re write order in society for it ever work right
but this time we must make it right ...or we will perish
I hope it starts with the TRUTH about mankinds origins
for afterall....there is only ONE truth
perhaps thats what NWO is intending ?
not all they hype and scare we hear from the world of religion | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/8/2009 9:16:42 PM | I wouldn't worry too much about the NWO, in fact I don't much care whether it exists or not.
I used to be a bit paranoid & angry about it until I saw that real power resides with The People and it's only fear that holds us back & keeps us from flexing our very real muscle.
All we have to do is a couple of things and the story of Man will have a happy ending.
These are the things:
1) Don't submit to authority. You can agree with it when it's right, but if you submit, you'll "go along with it" when it's wrong. BE your own highest authority.
2) Have the courage to do the right thing instead of settling for a lesser evil. In fact here's a little fictional(?) story to illustrate my point:
An aircraft mechanic is inspecting a plane that just landed and finds a faulty part. He knows it's not too serious, but there is a chance the part could fail in flight and cause a catastrophe. He recommends the plane be pulled out of service. His supervisor contacts head office and is told they can't afford to do that, can it wait until it's due for overhaul next spring? Tell the mechanic to sign off on it. Supervisor gets the message & talks to the mechanic:
Bill, it isn't a life or death thing, it's only a small stress crack. Sign off on it and we'll go for beers.
Can't do that Ed, the regulations are pretty explicit and I'm responsible for signing off.
Let me put it another way Bill, head office is basically saying they can't afford the financial loss right now. I'm serious, people could get laid off over this stupid little part and frankly, I think Head office would find a way to fire you over this. It costs them that much. Besides, it's only marginally over the "line", you could just pretend you didn't even see it. Sign...please.
Bill will either sign off or not; let's see what could happen in both scenarios:
He doesn't sign and the plane doesn't crash:
He loses his job, gets depressed, looks for work, worries about feeding his family and knows they won't hire him at the airlines ever again, because word has gotten out.
If the plane crashes, he feels utterly vindicated and is glad as hell it isn't his name on that paper. He is also subpoened to testify in an ivestigation that will eventually put some of his bosses (who feel pretty rotten themselves) behind bars.
He signs and the plane doesn't crash:
Life goes on as before, but he feels somehow just a little emptier in his heart somehow and my be just a bit ashamed when he really thinks about how he knuckled under.
If the planed crashed: He is unavailable for comment because he either committed suicide, or immediately turned to drugs or booze to "forget" and is currently sleeping it off in a blind alley by some garbage cans.
There are many other examples; some fictional, some not, but the story doesn't differ too much. I think it illustrates the point that the smallest of concessions can be a "lesser evil" that leads to a monstrous one. How many such concessions do we make in our everyday life? Even better, What if we actually contributed? Suppose Bill not only refused to sign, but said he was going to inform the FAA about the matter, so NOBODY had bloody well better sign that crap off, or there would be hell to pay! The CEO might still get rid of him over the matter, but the CEO himself would not dare sign off on the damn thing, so Bill has not only a clear conscience, he knows his action stands to possibly save a lot of lives and he isn't going to simply allow innocent people to die over a few lousy bucks.
Is bill a hero?...Damn right he is...look at the lives he saved!
3) Compassion - Care about others; it's that simple...Care enough to give a damn about others!
Actually, one need only apply #2 & 3. #1 will fall into place all by itself as the example of the airline mechanic shows. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/8/2009 11:17:11 PM | well...Im not sure about a free society.. ...I guess it's all down to perspective.. experience and conciousness..
Ie could you be locked in a room and still..FEEL free?.. I guess you could if you had the ability, to imagine.. /meditate/feel/experience being somewhere else.. regardless of whether your body was.. imprisoned..
Personally.. I think a free collective society.. would start with individuals..
like love/peace/anything freedom comes from within..
maybe if everyone..(humans / analogy as a cell)......like a bunch of cells... under a microscope... and if all were free within themselves.. it would look like a society or collective of freedom..
Personally.. I think freedom starts with respect.. .. IF I have respect for others... then I listen to who they are... what they need/want.. and then can communicate... compromise.. to have peace and harmony..
I personally have a taste of freedom.. as much as I can within my own conciousness/lifestyle.. (ie what im aware of...thus far and what Im prepared to compromise for freedom/peace)
I guess comparatively.. maybe not.. that would be a persons judgement/perspective..on my life..in their image..
Ive found to have personal freedom..
1.respect
2.compromise= ( If I choose freedom over the latest fads/fashions/gadgets//shiny things.... then I choose freedom over needing money etc for them)IM free not to work.. for someone else.. once I sell that right with debt.. then I enslaved myself..willing for the love of shiny/image things)
3..no debt.. ( although I live in a majority capitalistic society.. and profit from that)
I can still... enjoy my choices.. but I donot have to be anywhere...go anywhere.. unless I choose too... I know my bills/rent/finance needed roughly for a year.. once IVe got that.. .. anythings a bonus.. or choice..
4.. The more I am self sufficent.. ... ie health...If I donot rely on outside assistance for my sustainability.. I get more freedom..
once again compromise... sadly.. IM not a completely self healing system yet... and thus Im not completely free
but IM ever growing /changing.. and could be..
5.. harmony/compromise respect within my enviroment.. ie the wild life I live with.. I think they think IM a taller colourful..thingy.. that hands out free food..
they are born free.. are wild..yet I don't see theim feeling always safe.. re bigger species/creatures/territory etc..
but mostly.. we just respect.. we are all different species/ and harmonise together.. some want to bully the little birds..for eg..
Where I live... some set up communities/commune type living.. away from capitialism... FRom talking for over a decade with different originals... ongoing/changes in community/leaders... Id acertain..
6..ego... when others want to feel superior or control..(see lack of respect..re allowing others to think/feel/differently)
7..greed/selfishness.. takes over.. respect.. compromise.. etc..
So I guess.. In my little part of the universe.. I have freedom.. to an extent..
MY town? well the youngins..if they are given respect... ie respect their elders opinion of them.. a glance of disappointment in some behaviour.. which can spread throughtout the community.. sorta helps..
BUt put in drugs.. ego.. greed.. no respect... the youngins.. can fark up freedom alot...so can some adults..
at the end of the day.... if you see shit.. smells like shit..looks like shit... avoid it.. otherwise youll walk shit through your mind/heart/soul.. conciousness..
stay away from shit...
collectivelly..yer could be a free society.. from within..
but damn.. I see those big cities in the us of a.. and truly feel sorry for those that live there..
its a jungle out there..
peace | |
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jbogie
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 46 | |
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jbogie
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 47 | |
| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/9/2009 2:20:18 PM |
A free society can survive without a lot of things but it cannot survive without free speech or a free press.
sure it can. even in the u.s. speach and press is far from free. you cannot lawfully talk about a bomb in the security line at an airport. nor is it legal to publish or even be in possesion of child pornography. people often confuse freedom of speach and press with the instructions that the first amendment gave to congress. and of course, nobody is free to say whatever they wish on your property nor post materials that you don't approve of there. indeed, they themselves would be guilty of several tresspassing statutes. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/9/2009 2:31:46 PM | | You said, "Sure it can" and then switched gears. Care to elaborate? Because in switching gears you completely contradicted yourself, and I'm sure that wasn't the intention. How can it? What must the definition of "free" be in order for it to be possible, in your opinion? | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/9/2009 2:37:32 PM | it seems that we arnt unlike other primate groups !! that have what's called male hierachy forming tendancy in other words the strongest smartest biggest fanged male , dominates the weaker males , the females, and the territory and resources!!
Like what we do in a way , although we have whats called civilisation , and democracy.
But nevertheless are establishments are based on heirachy. And this just seems the way things go in the natural world of which were part of ? basically the strongest and smartest dominate the weaker and less intellectual. so in a sense is what freedom is , in its natural raw essence ?
Our dilemma seems to be that we have on foot planted on the ground in a kind of primate meat suit, based on the above hierachy forming psychological tendancy. Which is now battered and bloody !!
Whereas a spiritual part to our psyche has its foot on the first rung of the ladder towards angelhood .
i think the part of the historical period we are living through is about lifting our primate foot of the floor and leaving behind the way of the foolish monkey !!
Maybe the only way to achieve this evolution is via pharmacological intervention ?through innoculating the corresive forces of the EGO and the insistence on the self , in relation to making a change within yourself in order to effect the whole .. and becoming more like a hive mind strategy ? | |
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jbogie
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 50 | |
| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 8/9/2009 3:01:14 PM |
You said, "Sure it can" and then switched gears. Care to elaborate? Because in switching gears you completely contradicted yourself, and I'm sure that wasn't the intention. How can it? What must the definition of "free" be in order for it to be possible, in your opinion?
i'm missing where you think i "switched gears". i disagreed with this statement from another poster, "A free society can survive without a lot of things but it cannot survive without free speech or a free press."
i then went on to give examples as to how the u.s. is surviving quite well and that the press and speach is often restricted here. we do not have totally free speach and press in this country. i don't get into definitions of words for precisely this reason. that's what i find awkward with threads such as this. the op authors a title such as "is it even possible to have a free society?" i can think of no more vague and overly broad question one could ask on a forum. i won't even attempt to define what the op means when he uses the word "free". i'm just pointing out that since this government does restrict speach and the press in certain instances, those restrictions are an example of some things that are not free. they are restrictive and the u.s. survives quite nicely with such restrictive laws. | |
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