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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 9/25/2009 11:56:34 AM | Human beings are completely and unavoidably influenced by their surroundings. In that respect, you can NEVER be completely free. You can posses everything in the world, and it can be taken from you in a flash, then you will have nothing.
However, you ARE free to choose how you will respond to your circumstance, and that can never be taken from you. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:23:40 AM |
What would be the standard for exchanging goods and services?
How about a social credit monetary system that gets rid of the private banks?
http://www.michaeljournal.org/myth.htm
There's an eighteen year old kid that made a movie that blows the lid off the Canadian monetary system and how the banks rip us off. It's free to download & distribute and well worth watching. 
http://onebigtorrent.org/torrents/6243/Oh-Canada--Our-Bought-and-Sold-Out-Land-2009 | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/13/2009 12:36:45 AM | | Freedom-like rights-is an illusion. The free-er one person is, the less free everyone else is. If I am free to kill at will, without fear of punishment, everyone I might kill becomes less free to: walk the streets, ride the subways, shop, dine out, etc, etc, etc. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/13/2009 12:54:48 AM |
If I am free to kill at will, without fear of punishment...
Whether or not you fear punishment, what makes you think we aren't free to punish you? Who's gonna stop us? You can't...You have no rights, remember? | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/15/2009 2:33:45 PM | | Freedom is not a matter of rights. One illusion can not give substance ot another illusion. IF-note the operative word IF- IF I am free to kill you that means I have the right to kill you without being punished. Since that situation will not exist, because you can always punish me by defending yourself, I can not be free to kill you so that feeedom-like all freedoms, and all rights-is an illusion. But IF it did exist-if I were an invincible Superman, and there were no such thing as Kryptonite-my being just one person who had just that one right, would take all other rights, and all other freedoms, away from all other people...because I could do anything I wanted, and no one could stop me. As such, true freedom-even for one-negates all freedom for everyone. By enforcing itself, freedom negates itself. What makes society work (haha) to any degree is the number of people who PRETEND that rights, and freedoms, exist. If enough people pretend such, most of the time, things run fairly smoothly...UNTIL someone like Ted Bundy comes along, and exploits society's fantasy to his/her benefit. It is the very pretending that rights/freedoms exist which empowers the Ted Bundy types,and allows them to violate your alleged rights. It is better to not believe the fairy tale of rights/freedom existing, and just be aware of the people/circumstances around you, and be ready for anything, anytime, anywhere. Then, when the Ted Bundy types act against you, you have a better chance of defending yourself, and surviving. Telling Ted Bundy about your rights,and freedoms, and how he just can't do to you what he IS doing, as he does it, will NOT help you in the least. Your alleged rights/freedoms will wield no power to protect you...though-if you survive-they may allow you to seek some form of vengence/compensation. Is that ok? Will your slashed throat, smashed spine, etc, feel better as you lie in bed-paralyzed for life from the neck down-because you managed to sue your attacker, win a multi-million dollar judgement, and perhaps even collect a few thousand dollars of it? I doubt it. That is the best your alleged rights can get you, though. However, even that alleged right will fade into nothingness if your attacker has no money/property for the court to seize and give to you. Rights/ freedoms may seem like nice fairy tales, but they are still fairy tales. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/15/2009 3:03:29 PM |
What makes society work (haha) to any degree is the number of people who PRETEND that rights, and freedoms, exist.
Wrong...What makes a society work is the CREATION of rights and the corresponding contractual obligation to honor them in the rest of society, those rights you want for yourself. (i.e. rights are a contractual creation). Pert of that contract is that our freedom ends where it infringes on the rights of others. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/15/2009 5:46:28 PM | | You can't create anything in a universe where nothing is created, or destroyed. Forget your law school fantasies, and take a class in Physics. Study The Laws Of Thermodynamics. Passing laws, agreeing to contracts, etc, is just the PRETENDING I was speaking of. It is fantasy. If it were real, they laws would be self enforcing,and there would be no violations, no breach of contracts, no crimes, etc . With REAL laws, there are no choices. They enforce themselves...like the law that says you will never be able to exceed the speed of light. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/15/2009 6:03:18 PM |
You can't create anything in a universe where nothing is created, or destroyed.
Mathematics doesn't exist either then (by your definition), therefore the laws of physics can't be determined (that would rely on something that doesn't exist). By your reasoning, even your example of lightspeed can't be a law because we only derived it in our imagination. Therefore nothing exists...Its ALL make-believe. There is no law, no mathematics, no you, no me... Welcome to absolute nihilism. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/15/2009 6:50:16 PM | Desperado, oh, you ain't gettin' no younger
Your pain and your hunger, they're drivin' you home
And freedom, oh freedom well, that's just some people talkin'
Your prison is walking through this world all alone
(Just a few lines from a song; but maybe finding simple company with a rare kind and humorous heart is the closest to freedom anyone will come in this world.) | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/15/2009 7:55:46 PM | | Deriving things in your imagination is not creating them. Creating is bringing into actual phyical existance out of nothing...as God is said to have done in the first six days of the universe. We did not derive the light speed limit in our imginations. It is proven in physical nature by black holes in space. The best we can hope to do is to MAKE things...which is bringing into either physical, or mental (imaginary), existance one thing out of something else that already exists...building a house with lumber, nails, etc. We can make what are called laws-against robbery, tax evasion, etc-but they have no physical reality, and are just imaginary...which is proven every time someone violates our alleged laws. True laws can not be violated. The laws of thermodynamics are true laws, which prevent perpetual motion. The laws of physics do not rely upon mathematics. Math relys upon physics. You ARE a backwards sort, aren't you? | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/15/2009 7:59:51 PM | | Island Home - Post a few dozen porn images, while thretening harm to other posters,and see how long you remain on POF. You getting bounced off will prove that POF is not free. Doing X, or Y, will get you punished. While here, your 'right' to free speech is violated by the contraints placed upon it by the manager of the site. The freedom you think you have here is just another of the socially agreed upon illusions we have been discussing. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/15/2009 8:23:47 PM |
The laws of physics do not rely upon mathematics. Math relys upon physics. You ARE a backwards sort, aren't you?
Actually, I think you are the one who has it backwards. Mathematics was built on concepts (imaginary).
What can be said in physics without the math?
How can one even show what the speed of light is (let alone define it as a limiting velocity in the universe) without math?
About the only thing you can say in physics without math is that apples fall to the ground and even THAT is only based on human perception and therefore only an extrapolation of a perception made by the brain (imaginary again)
We're back to nihilism again, but that's OK, nihilism is a valid POV, but you have to be consistent, you can't say what does & what doesn't exist; quite simply, nothing can be shown to exist. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/16/2009 6:40:39 AM | I agree that it's impossible to have a 100% free society, if you equate "freedom" as the right of an individual to do whatever s/he wants regardless of how the consequences her/his actions affect other individuals.
Anarchy would not be freedom either.
Humans are social beings. To live together and function as a society, we need rules (laws). All social beings (animals that live in herds or communities/colonies) have rules. There is always a "boss" and a pecking order with some herd members being more important than others and others who are subservient to all the others. There will always be leaders and followers. Usually, it's "the followers" who perform the majority of the work. Humans aren't any different in that regard. However, people can rise through the ranks. Followers can become leaders. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/16/2009 12:34:35 PM | | Physics is what nature does whether you know it or not. Math is your way of defining what you see in physics/etc so that you can come to know more about it all. | |
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| Is it even possible to have a free society?
Posted: 11/17/2009 7:49:56 AM | To answer this question we probably need to define 'freedom.' Freedom can have different meanings; it may refer to social, economic, political or legal freedom.
I think speaking in relation to past cultures, we need to be careful. While at least in Western democratic countries it can probably be argued people have certain rights and freedoms which would not be recognised in earlier times (the right to choose one's religion for example), in other ways we are less 'free.' We live for the most part in highly complex urban societies in a complex globalised economy. Also at least in Western countries, there are thousands of laws which regulate countless aspects of our lives to the point even a clever academic lawyer cannot be expected to have comprehensive knowledge of all of the law, let alone a layperson. Governments have also become increasingly coercive and powerful in many countries, especially since 9/11 and use sophisticated information technology to keep track of people, monitor people, and gather information on people.
I am not a conspiracy nut but the increased power of goverments, developments in surveillance, and the tendency of governments to abuse human rights consistently even in the fact of constitutional or legal protections on the grounds of 'national security' is very worrying. Also worrying is the increasing power of private actors to do much the same, such as powerful multinational corporations, large institutional religions or cults (which often abuse human rights and due process when it comes to their own clergy or laity) and financial institutions such as banks, not to mention the more turbulent and unstable globalised economy.
On the balance I think while we have more fundamental freedoms and human rights recognised and protected, enforcement remains weak and in many ways people are less free in the face of government and private power than before. | |
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