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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/3/2009 5:02:27 AM | | Me Leona, I'm sure there are examples, and counter-examples, let's not fool each other. As for the test I mentioned, it was not something that I think would actually happen, but used to express a point; the point being that you will probably never really know whether you have a knight or a pretender until the chips are down. Then you will know. I hope it is not to late when you do find out. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/3/2009 5:23:11 AM | Wizard,
Chivalry comes in all sorts of packages and wrappings. Your point has been well taken, but i don't necessarily agree with you. My ex courted me until the day we divorced; it's just his nature -- he courts all women with the same courteous, respectful and romantic nature. And, romance does not always equate to something between a man and a woman; for some, it's just a way of life. Clearly, not your way, but that's your business. Again, it's all about how you treat someone ... we get by giving ... women can be chivalrous too.
My first husband, 5'5", 135 lbs. -- was NEVER a pretender when the chips were down, and would fight tooth and nail for me ... he also would fight tooth and nail with me. Chivalry, like any other trait and/or habit, does not necessarily have to be a 24/7 thing.
In days of old
When knights were bold
And toilets weren't invented,
They made their load
By the side of the road
And walked away contented ...
I don't know; learned that one in grade school. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/3/2009 7:51:11 PM |
In days of old . . Reminds me, Rustygetsit:
In days of old, when knights were bold,
And condoms hadn't been invented,
They wrapped a sock around their co*k,
And fu*^ed until contented.
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/3/2009 8:14:23 PM |
n days of old, when knights were bold,
And condoms hadn't been invented,
They wrapped a sock around their co*k,
And fu*^ed until contented.
Ooooh... a limerick...I am impressed...teehee | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/3/2009 8:31:12 PM | Haven't visited this thread in awhile...is it thesis night? Daggone I thought it was bad reading books written in the 1800's, I think I stepped back into the 18th century. Think ya got Ethos, Pathos, and Logos covered.
I guess I should get back to my Travels of Anacharsis the Younger in Greece, figure I might as well go way back in time. Chivalry during any time period rocked. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/3/2009 9:54:34 PM | Chivalry comes in all sorts of packages and wrappings. Your point has been well taken, but i don't necessarily agree with you. My ex courted me until the day we divorced; it's just his nature -- he courts all women with the same courteous, respectful and romantic nature.
Wow.
No wonder chivalry makes a woman feel special, and one of a kind..... 
And, romance does not always equate to something between a man and a woman
Isn't it in most States, that anything other than romance between a man and a woman is illegal?... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/4/2009 8:14:20 PM |
. . but now I can say, TopChuck, I take back what I said about your name should be Sir Tenderloin. Me Leona, I've been in a swoon since you said that. Please don't take my Thunderbird, away. Rustygetsit started it, anyway.
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/5/2009 8:32:02 PM | Verityone
Wow.
No wonder chivalry makes a woman feel special, and one of a kind.....
Same thought here. However, I don't think the problem is with the philosophy of "chivalry, it is with the practice of people who don't know the whole picture. One more word to the vocabulary... "savage" (rhymes with "garage") is a person who takes advantage of the side of "chivarly" that works for them, but doesn't keep the rules when it isn't so easy. In the old system there was even a symbolic color given to the "savage".... it was green (on the sleeves.).. a sign of a person removed from the court.
On a side note I wonder what would happen if men as a group really went back to the rules of romantic Chivalry. Yes, we pull out the chair, open the door.... but we also expect the lady to make the first move. How many ladies on this forum will REALLY support chivalry.? How many would keep it and how many would drop it like a hot potato. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/5/2009 8:42:35 PM |
On a side note I wonder what would happen if men as a group really went back to the rules of romantic Chivalry. Yes, we pull out the chair, open the door.... but we also expect the lady to make the first move. How many ladies on this forum will REALLY support chivalry.? How many would keep it and how many would drop it like a hot potato.
There's kinda a thread about that already in progress...lol..."why women want men to come to them"..opinions seem to be all across the board, as usual...lol...
Personally, since I am already pro active, I wouldn't have a problem with that...assuming all men would be receptive to that and there would be none of the pre conceived notions about women who do that, that sometimes plagues modern day life...I'm assuming my success rate might improve?..rofl... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/5/2009 9:15:59 PM | Wow.
No wonder chivalry makes a woman feel special, and one of a kind..... Same thought here. However, I don't think the problem is with the philosophy of "chivalry, it is with the practice of people who don't know the whole picture.
Just so there's no ambiguity, I was being totally sarcastic. The poster claims that her ex was chivalrous and romantic with other women.
Whereas other women view chivalry as a gesture citing that they are treasured. Unless I'm interpreting it incorrectly, the gestures comfirm (to her) that she resides in a special place in his heart.
I don't treat every woman the same as I do, my SO. Not even close. But it's got nothing to do with how cultured I am around her vs others.
I can't really explain it, but every SO I've had knows that I regard her as truly exceptional. And it's not a "love is blind" thing that my SO merely perceives it as such. They "sense" it.
I'm a very even keel type person. Many friends who have known me for years can't pick up on my moods by any other indicator except talking to me. My SO's can read me like a book, no matter how hard I try.
I really can't explain it.
The chivalry thing is just not "me". To me, it's like choreography, or scripting. Both of which I view as constraints.
If I did it, it would be contrived. But, since I've been pleased with the type of women I've been with, where it was never an issue, or even an expectation, I'm not concerned about it. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/6/2009 12:08:16 AM | | No, I belive in chivalry, but I also believe that it is a two way street. I treat people with respect and courtesy and I would not be in a relationship where this wasn't returned. I'd go out a limb here about chivalry and male/female relations, but I think I'll save that for another night , lol. Thing is , I think it's how you look at it. You can see it as demeaning and condescending or as courteous and virtuous. I certainly choose the latter. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/6/2009 7:54:16 AM | While this has been a thread on chivalry, the descriptors of what most observe as chivalric behavior, seems to reflect behavior more characteristic of "Courtship". Which evolved from a a practice wherein suitability was more important than love, which was believed to manifest later after a marriage occurred.
Interestingly, the romanticism that so many often opine emerged primarily during the early 19th century and gave birth to new genre of fiction known as "romance". What is often overlooked is that this view of romance was constructed on the the concept of a "separate spheres ideology" that perceived a woman's proper sphere of influence as being in the home and a man's proper sphere of influence in the public domain.
Those separate spheres of ideology were maintained for quite some time before they slowly began to be breached after the Civil War and then began to disintegrate during W.W. I.
Courtship then transitioned to "dating" with the creation of more public venues for young singles to attend away from the home. By 1925, dating was in vogue. Males initiated the dates and since they now cost money, males paid for the outings. Interestingly, with this transition, the sexual morality changed as well. In the past under "courtship", acceptable behavior included "kissing and caressing" above the neck. Under the new paradigm, the terminology and behavior changed to "necking and petting" referring to the same, only below the neck. During this time, it was common for singles to date widely and continue the concept of "competition" that was fairly common under "courtship" as many men would vie for the focused attention of a single woman.
After W.W. II, another shift occurred and the practice of wide competition transitioned into single focused dating or as it began being referred to as "going steady". It is in this phase where the concept and practices of what many refer to as "chivalry" came into vogue under the societal expectation of dating etiquette in which boys "protected" girls, exercising control by exercising control by opening car doors, ordering in restaurants, and taking responsibility for asking girls for dates, while girls behaved submissively to help their dates feel like men. It is also interesting that during this paradigm shift, Americans began marrying younger and more often that at any point in the century, and these couples had more children.
In the late 60s and early 70s, the most recent partnering paradigm shift, as I tend to refer to the transitions, occurred and seems to still be driving the process in the present occurred after the sexual revolution or more accurately a revolution in societal mores. The dating "rules" of 40s and 50s were all but dead, woman began initiating dates, men no longer automatically reached for the check, the "protectors" were no longer needed or desired and consequently there no longer any unifying rules for partnering.
The partnering process now, more than any previous time, is wholly individualistic with no rules. Individuals are responsible for initiating the process of finding a mate and do so on their own terms.
The process has become a delicate dance. The rules of courting behavior such as those practices many have referred to as "chivalry" no longer exist as a unifying practice of behavior and under the new paradigm have become individualistic as both a practice and a preference, or so it seems.
The bottom line is that chivalrous behavior is nice, romance is enjoyable, sustaining a continuous high level of either is difficult, and loving people is hard work.
The sustained romance in fiction is simply fiction, 24/7 courtship and romance is a myth, there is no knight in shining armor who will conduct a rescue and live happily ever after, she doesn't rescue the knight right back, if rescue is involved from either partner, might appear romantic on the surface and the difficulties and pain yet to be are boiling beneath that surface.
Relationships, ll relationships are hard work! Like the tide, relationships ebb and flow. Sometimes that water is relatively calm, sometimes the waves become rough and even dangerous, and occasionally a Tsunami comes along that threatens or succeeds in destroying all in its path. That is the nature of life. Only those relationships that understand this reality have the capacity to successfully navigate all of these different seas that they might encounter in their journey. Neither of them will successfully navigate these seas alone as it will require both of them working in partnership to survive any of them. If the time should come that either of them no longer will help or desires the help of the other, it might be time to consider relocating to different ships before their individual unwillingness to work as partners destroys all aboard this drifting ship.
Best,
ACP
References
E.S. Turner , A History of Courting, 1954.
Ellen K. Rothman , Hands and Hearts: A History of Courtship in America, 1984.
Kathy Peiss , Cheap Amusements: Working Women and Leisure in Turn‐of‐the‐Century New York, 1986.
Beth L. Bailey , From Front Porch to Back Seat: Courtship in Twentieth‐Century America, 1988.
Karen Lystra , Searching the Heart: Women, Men, and Romantic Love in Nineteenth‐Century America, 1989. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/6/2009 10:48:16 AM | Challenging men to dual you over the love of a lady? Holding back on sex for the sake of true love? Manners, graciousness, doing anything for a woman, extreme heroism to prove undying love?
Those men valued the lady because she was the representative on earth of all that was gentle and spiritual.
Are there any women around today who warrant such a title, and therefore are deserving of the knight in shining armour?
Perhaps they refuse to come out from their shell until the man has proven himself.
Or have we an emasculation situation on our hands? | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/6/2009 3:23:05 PM | ACP...interesting.
1. Did you do your own editing? What your interpretation was?
2. I noticed that the books/works were 1984-1989. Do you feel that at that time there was a generalized vein of thought from women who wrote books on themes like this?
I just noticed that they were all women and this was in the midst the "trendy" gender behaviour re-structuring thinking that was going on.
3. Can you give this post at little bit more balance? Something that was written quite recently by recognized scientists in the field of human behaviour? Maybe some writings from anthropologists, biologists and other studies that encompass the behavior of people? Behaviour is not limited to "social behaviour". It is studied by the academic disciplines of evolutionary psychology, social work, sociology, economics, and anthropology.
I know it's alot to ask, but I think these gestures are not NOT learned social behaviours that pop out every so once in awhile in generations because of some trendy thinking.
I watch how males naturally guard the females from danger in every aspect of the animal kingdom....except...lol...the preying mantis or the black widow spider.
JMO | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/6/2009 3:36:26 PM | I believe in mutal chivalry...open the door for me and I'll say "thank you" and hold the next one for you....scrape the ice of the windows and start my car and I'll put your cold cheeks in between my warm hands when you come back inside...notice that it's chilly out and offer your jacket and I'll suggest we stop for a hot java to warm up....all the old adages are always appreciated....I prefer to call it consideration for others and am often engaged in it regardless of gender...
open my car door before yours....and I'll drop dead.... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/6/2009 6:08:29 PM | haha!...OH my....I reserve the option of using my warm cheeks as hand warmers for men who can cook better than me.....
Oh and also, on a side note: chilvalry fly's out the window along with consideration when the thermometer dips below -20
Sheesh...mention "cheeks" and the convo goes South....silly kids.... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/6/2009 7:08:02 PM |
3. Can you give this post at little bit more balance? Something that was written quite recently by recognized scientists in the field of human behaviour? Maybe some writings from anthropologists, biologists and other studies that encompass the behavior of people? Behaviour is not limited to "social behaviour". It is studied by the academic disciplines of evolutionary psychology, social work, sociology, economics, and anthropology.  Loved this! (Behavior French/Canadian spelling you use? )
I drown in enough 19th century, now we are up to 20th, lets do it, we can make it to the 21st | |
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