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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 10:37:34 AM | Excellent post, Splendere!
My thoughts exactly on feminism.
Like a great pendulum, the arm will swing the other way and we will probably see more men's rights.....which..lol.....will be twisted and bent out of shape so badly from it's real intentions. Then the gender war will become most interesting. This stuff on POF forum will be child's play.
Once the pendulum arm settles to centre where we truly are at EQUAL OPPORTUNITY ...as you say, Splendere....in the workplace....and the person fits the job description that is required for the job....hopefully there will be an accord between the genders.
I also want to see family, children and home-life be given the importance and respect that it should have. Top priority. It has lost so much in the last 30 years.
As for males and females, when you act accordingly, then you get respect for who you are...accordingly. Not because you feel entitled to it.
This resonated with me:
I am a romantic; chivalry with its accompanying gentility is of paramount importance to me. I adore the alpha superiorly intellectual male. It has been my experience that these men can and do practice, at least, genteel ways. Some women can put up with coarse, crass men; I cannot tolerate them, I know, I have tried.
Interesting that about the alpha male. I have been skinned alive on here for my views on what a real alpha male is. He is nowhere like a he-man gorilla with bad attitude towards women like so many men on here like to project themselves as....or think that is what a real man is. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 10:51:54 AM |
I am a romantic; chivalry with its accompanying gentility is of paramount importance to me. I adore the alpha superiorly intellectual male. It has been my experience that these men can and do practice, at least, genteel ways. Some women can put up with coarse, crass men; I cannot tolerate them, I know, I have tried.
so far, we are in total agreement;.
Without taking this off topic, I can say that I agree with your thoughts. The feminization of America has done a great deal of damage.
in this I am only in partial agreement. It was the MILITANT feminism that has done a great deal of damage. The anger, bitterness, the breaking apart of the family unit, those are things that I think did the culture a great deal of harm.
One aspect of feminization has resulted in giving women jobs that they are not capable of fully carrying out, police and fire departments, for example. This also places an additional tax burden on the citizens for these token positions and leaves the public vulnerable when the person responding cannot help them.
WAY disagree on this one. the one thing society as a whole strives to do today in the work side, and I work primily in the hr/controller side of the industry, is make sure that the most qualified individual of EITHER gender (or race) is the one given the job. the only thing whatsoever feminism was supposed to do was make sure if a woman happened to be it, she was not paid 20% less by virtue of the fact she was a woman, or not considered altogether because she was a woman. the examples you cite are totally extraneous and don't have anythign whatsoever to do with 95% of the jobs out there that women HAVE. You are using oranges to prove apples. It doesn't work.
When women demanded that the Civil Rights Act be applicable to them also, an act meant to help right the wrongs of slavery and segregation for African Americans; every other group of persons including deviants employed this act to their benefit……..
Except for the healthy white American male. This is the only group that is not protected under this act.
I will admit there are times when a white male does have less chances (though less so; the first law was passed overturning a hiring recently where white males were passed over because they didn't happen to be a different race. It is in the process of evening out; though the reason those rules were in place for as long as they were was because of prejudice and not being allowed a fair shot. So this group is now having laws going in its direction as well. The first one is always huge.
I do not think that will ever happen, women have gotten accustomed to token positions in jobs they cannot properly fulfill; I do not see them giving that up anytime soon.
I'm absolutely baffled as to how you think most women in this country are not capable of performing their jobs properly?. That feels to me incredibly prejudiced against your own gender. You use the example of two extreme physical jobs as your example and then turn around and devalue your own gender's contributions in the workplace overall? wow... so for all the women lawyers, physicians, teachers, factory workers, nurses, aides, clinicians,emts, controllers, accountants, consultants, and the rest, because they aer a woman they are thereby in over their heads? You must think women pretty stupid and incapable then, maybe?
Yet, in order to obtain jobs most women were not capable of performing, police and fire departments had to lower their physical requirements in order to hire women. Women are now routinely given these jobs and paid the same salary as men although the women are not holding up their end of the bargain. These jobs often require brute strength; if there were women that had this strength then fine give them the jobs. But to have firefighters that are incapable of rescuing and carrying others imperils the very persons they were hired to protect.
I know several policewoman and they are amazing at their jobs, but again why use one tiny sector of all jobs out there as your "proof" that women are in over their heads, (it was firefighters, ironically, where the men DID in fact win the lawsuit saying they were passed over unfairly, and that was exactly as it should be, they WERE the most qualified and should have been hired). You are using 1/2 of 1% of all jobs out there as proof that women shoudl be paid less, and again this is for jobs they WIN because they are most qualified. and inf act you are saying they aren't qualified at all, because they are women. while ignoring most of the actual real job sector out there, and while ignoring the fact that the jobs women do take, as individuals they are given it fora reason; because they are very dang good at their jobs.
This is a primary example of feminism; just because I want it I get to have it; even if I am not qualified.
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Where have I EVER said a woman or anyone whatsoever should get hired for a job they are not qualified for? I will never ever say that. that would be ridiculous. It should be the most qualified person for the job (ironically, there actually are jobs out there besides firefighters and police too). I have only said I should not automatically be discounted because i am a woman. I should be given the same chance for being considered, not automatically ruled out because I happen to be female. it feels, from your tone, (of utter disdain and ingratiating towards males while showing huge disrespect to females), that you would prefer women DO get passed over, because any job she is naturally less qualified for. I will confess this concerns me that you give your own gender so little consideration, in your trying to appear "feminine" to men. Why can't a woman be feminine and proud to be a woman, and yet want to be respected as a person without it being twisted in horrible ways? It's bad enough men see us doing that. But another woman? Why can't you celegbrate your loving men in traiditonal way without feeling the ned to put down all other women at the same time? It does not make you more feminine; it makes you appear, though i'm sure this is not your intent, to be somewhat catty maybe.
Give me a break. In America women were oppressed? I call bs on that; it was merely a guise by man-haters to devalue men, even on a physical level. “We can do anything a man can”, is a mantra of feminists.
um, yes. I hate militant feminism, but I agree with the premise that something needed to be done to at least give some semblance of fairness. Again with the physical. Will you give that particular example a break already?
I am not, nor have I EVER been a man hater, I personally adore men, I think they're awesome, interesting, fascinating, and strong in their own ways; the only ones I have any problem beign comfortable around at all are the bitter, the cynical and the angry/hostile. And the closeminded. Men, intelligent respectful men who celebrate being men, treat and want to be treated with respect, who don't brush people with broad brushes but seek to understand on an individual basis as well as thematic, THAT is intelligence to me, and I absolutely love interacting with people like that. As for the doing anything a man can, it is not saying we can do anything a man can, it is having to learn to do anything a man can, because there are so many broken homes and so many single women who don't have the man THERE to do the things that, traditionally, a man could. We don't have any choice; we have to work because more often than not either it's a two income household, or a broken one where all the burden is on us. So if we could not do that, what would we do? Crumple into a little helpless ball and cry ourselves to sleep at night? We move forward. We learn . I personally have moved many many tons of landscape debris, rocks, concrete, trees, stones, because I had to. One concrete block a coworker came over to lift and he couldn't lift one; I moved hundreds. So quit saying we aren't capable of strength if we don't need to be. But if a man is there and wants to lift it I will never turn down the offer of help; I only do because I am the one that is there to do it. It is not an insult to men for me to learn to be self sufficient. It is more an insult to myself if I don't. Why do people refuse to see that particular distinction who only look at the extremes?
Believe it or not, your mothers and grandmothers weren't depressed or oppressed
+1
allright, I'll bite. My one grandmother was a factory worker who got paid WAY less to do the same job, left at 4:30 am, got home at 2:30 in the afternoon to take care of a boy with muscular dystrophy and a girl less than a year younger, paid every dime of every bill in the house (grandpa spent every dime he made on drinking and women) and she got no help with anything. It was not until grandpa died of alcholism in his 50s that she was finally able to catch up to keepign a roof over her own head that she had provided all along anyways; her son was buried at 16 (a policeman, ironically, had to bring him to the morgue, grandpa was out drunk when he died, he did not get home until the next day and he was way too heavy for my 5 fot 110 pound grandmother to lift by herself or with her 15 year old 90 pound daughter).
My other grandmother was one of the first females allowed in an all male private college, she graduated with honors with a dual degree in chemistry and latin and then proceeded for the next 50 years to bake, clean, cook, keep a spotless farmhouse and listen while the men around her had their "topical" conversations and their "improtant" discussions without ever once asking her opinion, caring what she thought, giving her any choice as to where they lived, where they'd go, when they'd go, what they'd do, what she was allowed to believe. They would even remove the coffee cup while she was pouring and they were talking, and force her to clean up the mess made on her white tablecloth
Her husband also died in his 50s and after he died she moved from the farm to a coastal town in southern florida, dyed her hair, FINALLY got a voice and became blissfully happy
do I consider them oppressed? I guess I would say I considered them heroes who were voiceless in a society who cares only about the "most vocal".
I admired both of them tremendously; they had awesome attitudes, they were brilliant, hardworking, my factory grandmother NEVER said a bad word about my grandfather to the day he died, (she still doesn't), and neither carried a chip on their shoulder about anything whatsoever. they were not bitter, hostile nor resentful.
They loved, they did what they did because they loved, and they accepted what was, without whining about it. They were strong in teh very best sense of the word. They were strong in their integrity, in their loyalty, and in their endurance. Both were gorgeous, both were highly sought after, and both stayed single after their husbands died, in spite of much professed iterest in both their cases, especially my still living grandmother. People adore her, and they should; she is an awesome, awesome human being.
So if you want to take shots at my grandmothers, go for it. i stand with them proudly as incredible poeple, not just women, and I am very very proud to be their granddaughter.
what any of that whatsoever has ot do with chivalry I'm not sure I get though. I believe I said feminism doesn't have anything to do with how people treat people individually.
I stand by that.
if someone has the courage of their convictions to do special treatment to a woman as a woman, I say more power to them. Not because it is expected or a rule; because they are strong enough in themselves as a man and comfortable enough to show value (if they feel it, obviously; they wouldn't if they don't)
I think that's awesome. But again, showing it to a person who also shows value and respect back, that is a lost part of dating.
But it's not lost forever, or to everyone. Just to some.
and that's ok.
To each their own | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 12:40:23 PM | Yet, in order to obtain jobs most women were not capable of performing, police and fire departments had to lower their physical requirements in order to hire women. Women are now routinely given these jobs and paid the same salary as men although the women are not holding up their end of the bargain. These jobs often require brute strength; if there were women that had this strength then fine give them the jobs. But to have firefighters that are incapable of rescuing and carrying others imperils the very persons they were hired to protect. WAY disagree on this one. the one thing society as a whole strives to do today in the work side, and I work primily in the hr/controller side of the industry, is make sure that the most qualified individual of EITHER gender (or race) is the one given the job. the only thing whatsoever feminism was supposed to do was make sure if a woman happened to be it, she was not paid 20% less by virtue of the fact she was a woman, or not considered altogether because she was a woman. the examples you cite are totally extraneous and don't have anythign whatsoever to do with 95% of the jobs out there that women HAVE. You are using oranges to prove apples.
I'll disagree with you, and side with Splendere. She's not being "anti" woman here, simply seeing the realities.
I guess some of it will depend on where you live. Here, there are "quotas" for certain jobs done strictly on percentages of "visible" minorities. Government agencies, public servants, certain high profile companies will fill rosters by quotas, regardless of qualifications.
I know of many men who were at the top of their classes at their academies for Fire and Police, and were denied their positions because someone was chosen over them because a quota need to be filled.
Reverse discrimination. Don't tell me it doesn't exist.
Men, intelligent respectful men who celebrate being men
I haven't a clue what you mean by that comment, even though it might appear obvious to you, it isn't to me.
What entails "celebrating" one's manhood?
Can you elaborate? | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 1:06:44 PM | after winning an important final baseball/football/hockey game and should never be performed without drinking beer first...
Maybe writing your name in the snow while peeing, after a few beer?....
That's something only guys can do, right?... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 1:19:11 PM |
Maybe writing your name in the snow while peeing, after a few beer?.... I've been considering getting my gf a stencil so she can partake in this wondrous experience. 
On topic though, last night after watching a movie I brought my gf to her place then quickly got out the car and ran to her side as if to open the door for her. She opened the door, gave me a funny look and we shared a big laugh about the awkwardness of chivalry in this day and age.
I wonder how feminist movements view chivalry. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 1:25:52 PM |
I wonder how feminist movements view chivalry.
To my knowledge, the view is "I can open my own dam door myself TYVM"
I love it when my sweetie opens my door for me... he doesn't do it every single time and frankly if he did it would become a pain having to demurely wait for him to trot around the car. But the times he does, because they are when the moment has moved him, or I have moved him, makes it very sweet. It's not a chivalrous dictated moment that he would perform for any woman... it's a special moment between the two of us. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 1:28:21 PM | Splendere said
<div class='quote'>To persons that are not sensual once the orgasm is achieved it is usually all over for them. Certain sexual activities are engaged in for the sake of pleasing the other. But, that joy, that feeling of insatiability, that a sensual person usually has for a lover, is missing. It takes a sensual person to realize that another is not.
Yes, thank you! There once was a man named Dave.... hehe... I was with a guy a few years ago and we were very compatable in bed but after, I was still affectionate while he was not.
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 2:04:53 PM |
of course Margo is an exception usually being logical/ fair and annoyingly cute for being right 84.8% of the time
84.8%? I don't think I could get away with such a low estimation. Regardless, according to a number of regulars out here, I make up the other 15.2%.
HTTB!
OT - somewhat. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 2:37:53 PM | also find it interesting that Divorced,Ver and myself are all from the same city with some basic understanding of the real world out there...
Well, I'm actually from Montreal, originally.
Even though I've lived here in T.O for half my life, I still don't feel connected to this city. I know it well, but it doesn't feel like home. People here are, for the most part, fooked. They don't know how to live.
At 22 yrs old, coming from a city that had bars closing at 4:00 am, to a city that had bars closing at 1:00 am, no stores being open on Sundays, and not being able to buy alcohol anywhere but a place designated for such, at restricted hours and days, felt like I moved to a communist country.
I much prefer Montreal, or New York, and get out to each of those cities as often as I can.
It takes a while to save up enough money to post bail.... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 3:36:17 PM | "And quite honestly in all fairness the majority of women on POF do not deserve any respect whatsoever and probably never will,you can see that in the manner they communicate/demand things/ridicule members/etc and the way some even hate men because of their own extreme faults.These women definitely are not suitable for LTRs "
Bandito, have you ever considered that the bitter and condescending attitude that you and a number of men here exhibit, could turn the nicest female into a total b*tch when having to endure your presence? | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 4:40:49 PM | varinia-
Seriously, I think there is a case to be made that women have been put in a role in our society that they are not suited for. It's not that we hate women, it's just that a lot of men, myself included, are realizing a societal problem with feminism and its effects. I wouldn't take it so personal. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 4:43:17 PM |
Bandito, have you ever considered that the bitter and condescending attitude that you and a number of men here exhibit, could turn the nicest female into a total b*tch when having to endure your presence?
Ya know...I am normally a nice, optimistic, supportive of men and their concerns type of person..and even I am getting an attitude..sigh...you can't find a thread where men and women actually appear to like each other, and few can disagree without name calling, the same issues keep getting repeated because nothing is ever solved, compromised or understood...admitting being female may color my perspective..but, it seems to me that generally, women seem more bewildered and hurt , while generally, men just seem angry and hateful towards women..there are exceptions, as always...but, it seems to me ,if both sides could listen and try to see the other side, instead of blaming...things would actually improve...
Men are not short on flaws/failings or responsibility for the way things are right now...and I don't know if I think there is a "wrong" or "right" point of view about which side is to blame or which isn't..but, if anyone actually wants to make both sides happy..you sure can't tell it on here...
OT: moonbeamlover: I'll split the difference with you and splendere...it is true that some women ( and other protected groups ) have jobs that they don't deserve on merit..and that needs to be corrected...but, it is also true that it isn't a majority..and, in the beginning, they made up the quotas and rules to ensure compliance...because there were many men who wouldn't have done it otherwise ( and there are still some who do...my current employers are still very chauvinistic)...I think we have reached a point where we don't need that anymore, and giving jobs based on ability would include not excluding anyone based on any discriminatory reasons alone...
It is also true that at the time white men didn't need protection because they already had all the rights and powers that go with it...( the ERA was never actually ratified in the US, btw, the assumption being the constitution protected all classes and genders and races already if we are all truly equal as human beings), but, in some places and cases they are now suffering reverse discrimination...I think this is going to swing back, maybe I am being my normal optimistic self, but, most intelligent women I know are aware it is a problem, and support equilibrium..
I am weary both of being lumped in with "feminists" as ruining the world, and assumptions made, and labels attached in absolutes..I don't consider myself one way or the other...my beliefs are a mixture of many things, and I am not interested in "rules" myself..just what works for the two individuals involved...and consideration for both parties needs and views...
I have never in my life thought I should have what I don't deserve, or what I didn't work for, in fact, the feminism I learned said just the opposite..that I didn't deserve to not work outside the home, nor expect appreciation or have value if I didn't...and I generally don't think I "deserve" anything..that's why I am so appreciative when men do nice things , or consider my feelings...because it is a gift...and then I might feel deserving...
I just don't personally know all these entitled, selfish women that so many men complain about on here..maybe it is the company I keep, maybe it is where I live..I don't know...but, all the women I know work very hard in and outside the home, and give as much and many times more than their SO's...and are loved by them.
Just because I grew up in this change doesn't mean I bought the rhetoric...or live it...I just do the best I can, and try to be the best person I can, and hope that somewhere, sometime, some man actually likes me enough to see that, and appreciate it, and act it...and not accuse me of untrue and ulterior motives...
And most everyday women I know are the same... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 4:45:30 PM | Believe it or not, your mothers and grandmothers weren't depressed or oppressed by being domesticated. They were, in fact, a lot happier than the modern "independent" woman.
Talk about broad over-generalizations. If they were happier it's because they were treated with respect and loved. Today, if a woman WANTS to stay home and be a mother and homemaker, she's chastised. Many women have been depressed and oppressed from the beginning of time, this is nothing new. We've always been responsible for our own "happiness" and still today have a patriarchal and prejudiced society to contend with, in addition to the whole world about to self-destruct. Many men want someone to cater to them, bear their children, be domesticated, and also go out to work and help pay the bills, and stay sexy, fun, smiling and laughing all the while. The day of the women "having it all" homelife and career" was not long-lived. Most families suffer unless there is agreement, accord, mutually between them, the roles that will be played. Then divorce happens and what then for the "happy domesticated little lady?" She's lost years in the career-track that she may have had spent thousands of dollars getting educated and given up a job to stay home. Yes, times have changed. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 5:31:58 PM | How important is chivalry in an relationship to you? I think chivalry and good manners go hand and hand, both showing a very respectful character and both genders should be displaying those same manners and respect towards each other.
Yes, I definitely notice when someone takes the time to open the car door for me first or holds the door to allow me to walk in first and a mental note gets made that a gentleman is in my presence. But if they didn't open the door for me I wouldn't rule out their being a respectful person....only that they never realized just how many things they could do for a woman to show good manners of the kind that deserve to be mentally noted. lol I'm sure that's because less and less people display chivalry of that manner and therefore others no longer see or learn from them. Never taught, never learned, never displayed....and so the cycle goes until it becomes a dying art.
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/12/2009 7:06:02 AM |
A certain poster has been deleted so the post #'s are off.
For information on "Chivalry" and it's role and meaning in today's world (or lack thereof, depending on your view) I recommend looking up chivalrytoday.com and chivalrynow.net | |
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firm88
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Joined: 7/21/2009
Msg: 495 | |
| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/12/2009 8:19:03 AM | | I firmly believe that chivalry is an important part in a relationship. It shows that you are consider and caring. I enjoy doing the little things for a special woman like opening her door, helping her with her coat, or lighting her cigarette if she smokes. The little things count! | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/12/2009 9:02:46 AM |
....only that they never realized just how many things they could do for a woman to show good manners of the kind that deserve to be mentally noted.
What do YOU do that is such good manners? You say thank you and that's it?
men should do this. men should do that. wtf do you do? | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/12/2009 1:47:59 PM |
men should do this. men should do that. wtf do you do? They appreciate us.
Understanding that the genders define being loved differently forces us to use a different strategy to 'earn' the loving we want to live fulfilled lives.
The reason we believe we're not getting something in return is that some women don't reciprocate by providing loving as we define it.
Cmdrfunk, your point is accurate, when the reciprocation is absent. The women who don't reciprocate became convinced that men were oppressing them, when all we want to do is love them and be loved in return.
There are two important ways to prevent loving:
1. The prevention of the natural tendency to love by both genders. This is accomplished by attacking the motives of either gender, when they express love. This is the 'lib' contribution to love destruction.
Men who anticipate the 'lib' reaction and can't count on being accepted, don't take the chance that women know how to be loved. They don't 'Chival'.
It's not that women want it both ways. It's that some women want it one way, learned from the 'lib' movement, based on their being oppressed, and other women want to be loved as their instincts define being loved.
It makes men, who take the chance on being chivalrous, neurotic. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
2. The belief that the definition of loving is the same for both genders. This usually occurs after one stops loving for some reason. Before that, loving is based on the natural instincts of both genders.
Usually it's the male who stops loving, because he reaches some plateau that makes him take a break. He's a hunter and after he makes the capture, he tends to relax and enjoy the fruits of his labor. He stops using the skills that enabled him to make the capture in the first place.
The reaction when the initial loving is interrupted is to try to show the other person how to love as an example for them to follow in loving them.
This "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." doesn't work because of the difference in definitions. It leads to role reversal in relationships, which leads to nastiness. Living our lives centered in our specific genders contributes to self actualization. Celebrating one's gender identity is a matter of finding one's 'gender center' and enjoying the self actualization that comes with that arrival.
We need to learn to "Do unto others as they would want us to do unto them." in relationships.
We have to understand loving to do that. Again, that's the path out of POF Purgatory.
Heed the call, Lovers! Follow me!
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 9/19/2009 3:30:39 PM |
men should do this. men should do that. wtf do you do?
They appreciate us.
Sorry but that is just not acceptable for most men.
How abut men start doing nothing for women and expect women to cook, do laundry, give back rubs?
In exchange we will appreciate women.
Sounds good? | |
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