| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 1:18:01 PM | | I've heard so many times men say they decided not to have good manners because they never get a thank you. I can't even imagine not saying thank you, I can only think you must be dating the wrong women, but I've experienced real cads. That doesn't make me stop saying thank you to the ones who aren't. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 1:34:06 PM | Some people need to read up on human behaviours and why....
The differences in men and women...that don't show on the surface....
The differences that social conditioning (by humans and their idealisms) cannot erase what is inherent in us. It can bend it, but it takes alot of bending thousands of years of evolution...and thirty years just can't do it.
Funky..it will be a good thing for you to look at. Anthropology and human biology is a start.
Equality is equality opportunity in the workplace, education, the legal system etc.. That is it! Not in our DNA...
If you want to keep sucking the equality koolaid...
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 1:42:47 PM | Ok..ok..ok...I'm hooked....just reel me in...k..?
Chivalry is not dead....it may be reeling...from the sexual revolution and the misconceptions that were bred in it's infancy....but, men are still men...women are still women...and very little seperates us...(sorry couldn't hep' myself)...
I like treating a woman as special...and I like a woman treating me as "special"....yep...I'm a romantic savant...it's the differences that are the attraction...and some of the similarities... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 1:51:07 PM | First and foremost, a knight was at the center of what he did, a warrior. A man of the sword. While some monastic knight orders, such as the Knights Templars were to be celibate, knights in general were not. At the center of what made them a knight was not whether they opened door for ladies, but their word, honor and deeds.
Those things are as alive today as they were back them. Only today the warrior does not necessarily goes to kill a foe, he goes and competes. If you ever see a bike race, you will see all the different colors, and warrior like people warming up getting ready to risk wrecking for what? To win some trophy made out of cheap metal? No, to prove his valor. Not to others, but to himself. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 1:53:23 PM | | Me Leona, I always said thank you every dinner we went to, every time he opened the door/car door etc. I wanted him to know it was appreciated. Everyone should have manners. It would just be rude not to say thank you. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:01:55 PM |
This is a thread asking for a womans point of view....i.e.polarized..
To unpolarize the thread, isn't there a female side of this? The nurturer, the woman who dare I say cooks, or is concerned about someone when he is sick, might even offer to take care of him or bring him some meds. Women were traditionally taught to take care of everyone around her with little thought to themselves. Don't men complain about women who are no longer women?
Both boil down to being thoughtful and considerate. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:13:25 PM | | Makes me think of the woman who, when a man opened a door for her, said in a haughty tone, "You don't have to open the door for me because I'm a woman!" He replied, "I didn't. I opened it for you because I'm a gentleman." | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:22:26 PM | I don't think chivalry is dead (I've seen it in my son) but I don't necessarily expect it 99.9% of the time from a date. There are times though when I appreciate it. Case in point, if I'm on a date with a guy and he has a vehicle with heavy car doors. At that point, yes, chivalry is important to me. I truly appreciate it if he opens and closes those doors, 'cuz I hate to think what would happen if it (the door) hit another car and damaged both vehicles.
But, does he need to stand when I enter a room or remove his hat (of the baseball kind) in my presence? NO. Nor does he need to walk on the street side of the sideway - but IF he chooses to do so, it's not an issue with me, either.
Honesty, integrity and compassion are far more important qualities IMHO.
MF | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:48:22 PM |
To unpolarize the thread, isn't there a female side of this?
No, chivalry is pretty much a one-way street these days.
Those things you mention can no longer be expected by men of women. In fact, it wouldn't be an overstatement to say the last several decades has been a monologue by women, informing men of all the things they can no longer expect from women anymore.
The old social contract has been ripped to shreds, by women. (The whole liberation thing wasn't men's idea.) And that's why chivalry is dead and women killed it: the knights which always come up in threads on this topic had their female counterparts appropriate to their time; such women no longer exist for the most part.
That's why the thread is polarized: from the title it's clear it's being addressed to women. I.e., what the man can do for the woman. This is what sets chivalry apart from common courtesy and manners. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 2:57:41 PM | | It seems that from reading the posts, both men and women appreciate being treated with manners, and that includes some good old-fashioned courtesies that are now extended to anyone and everyone, even strangers, by people who believe in having manners. The women who scoff at being treated with manners - where are they, I've never met one! The men who scoff at being treated with manners? Never met one of them either. The men who scoff at treating others with respect? I wouldn't want to meet them, and same for the women. It's just a people thing with me. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 3:36:11 PM | What I think many of the guys are saying here and in the "should men always pay" threads is this.
I don't mind paying and I don't mind opening doors, etc. What I don't like is for it to be expected of me. It completely changes the dynamic of the situation. If I choose to treat a date like a lady than I am choosing to be more than just another guy; I am choosing to be a gentlemen. This is something I can take pride in. When the expectation enters into the equation, my choice in the matter is irrelevant. It feels like being told "shape-up, or ship out". Being a gentlemen because I want to be is fulfilling, especially when it is acknowledged and appreciated. Being a gentlemen because it is expected of me makes me feel like it is my job, and if I do not perform up to the "bosses" standard I will get fired. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 3:42:07 PM | | Yea but... that brings up thadood38's (Justin's) very succinct statement that if you do ANYTHING expecting a thank you, you're missing the whole point. I think the point is, you're not being yourself, you're not being you, you're not doing something because you want to. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 3:47:55 PM | I dont need chivalry, it is often appreciated....but I am quite capable of fighting my own battles, and I definitely dont need to be rescued. However.....manners....it would be nice if people could just display some good manners and respectful etiquette.
I dont need to listen to you making arrangements on your cell phone to meet your buddy at the peelers, or anything else for that matter. Please. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 3:50:34 PM |
and if I do not perform up to the "bosses" standard I will get fired.
Then don't do it at all...continue on with what you are all about.
Boss????????...
If you aren't naturally a gentleman, then it will show up loud and clear when you fake it. A lady can spot that one a mile off... | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:15:00 PM | Here is an anlogy for you...
Most guys like getting head
Many women are kind enough to perform this for their man...
Would it change your feeling about performing this act if it was not appreciated but expected? | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:30:13 PM | Some people think the study of anthropology and human behavior explains chivalry, as well as a great many other behaviors. I am not discounting the theory out of hand, but we are more than just our biology. We make conscious, thoughtful, choices every day to circumvent what our biology dictates.
For example, women are genetically programmed to store a little fat to see us (and any breastfeeding children) through a period of famine our drought. Women who chose to fight this biological "asset" are able to do so if they wish. They usually follow a careful diet and exercise plan to do so.
Human beings do not need to eat meat to survive. Our ancestors did just fine on seeds, nuts, and plant food. We eat meat because we like it. There is no biological need.
Some instincts are hard-wired. Some aren't. Certainly, men are genetically more prone to certain behaviours than women are, and vice versa ....I just don't think holding a car door open or ordering a date's items from the menu qualifies. These are not "protective" behaviours. They are learned behaviors. They certainly can be learned in one person's lifetime. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:33:22 PM |
Some instincts are hard-wired. Some aren't. Certainly, men are genetically more prone to certain behaviours than women are, and vice versa ....I just don't think holding a car door open or ordering a date's items from the menu qualifies. These are not "protective" behaviours. They are learned behaviors. They certainly can be learned in one person's lifetime.
Protectiveness is hard-wired in most men. We women in this generation have beat the shit out of men who naturally want to do this for women.
Beating the shit out of someone is treating them to "learned behaviour" when their natural instincts say another.
Why fight something that gives us pleasure?
The thread certainly reflects that. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:45:13 PM | There is a difference between manners and chivalry. Manners are a courtesy that we should extend to all of our fellow human beings. Chivalry is treating a woman in an exceptioanal manner, above and beyond the courtesy that we extend to our fellow human beings. I am a very well mannered individual, and I enjoy treating my SO like a lady. For somone to act is if my treating them in an exceptional manner is a requirement, that is demeaning to me. It tells the gentlemen " your behaviour only shows that you qualify as a man in my eyes. If you had not treated me in this way, I would think of you as less than a man. Treating me in an exceptional manner does not make you exceptional in any way, it only makes you adequate.
One other way to look at it is this. I have always thought that the women in my life deserved to be treated exceptionally. There is a huge difference between deservant and entiltled. Expecting to be treated exceptionally tells someone that you feel that you are entitled to be treated in that way. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:59:18 PM | So maybe there is a difference between chivalry and manners, but it's safe to say, the ones with bad manners are the ones who don't believe in chivalry.
I'm not for chivalry, if it means someone else ordering my food at a restaurant. I order my own food, and offer to pay for it. There's obviously many people lacking basic courtesy and manners, and the two are tied together to a degree.
Masculinity, as far as your "head" example goes, it seemed like a good one, and it is, but really, most men appreciate it, whether they expect it or not! lol (can't believe I said that, how unladylike!) | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 5:11:05 PM | Protectiveness is hard-wired in most men. We women in this generation have beat the shit out of men who naturally want to do this for women.
Having been the victim of a violent attack (by a man) I can assure you, if a man had came to my defense I would have thanked him and thanked God. In no way do I discount the protective nature of men (although women are plenty protective of their children if need be). In fact, I appreciate the protective instinct in men. These instincts must be tempered with common sense, though.
My point is, chivalrous behavior is not protective. What is my chivalrous date protecting me from when he orders the wine? Inferior wine? What is he protecting me from when he opens the car door for me? Trying to save my manicure? Ummmm, thanks? It is simply learned behavior, from a different day and age.
Why fight something that gives us pleasure?
I never fight anything that give me pleasure. Except ice cream. I am resisting it right now.
Pffft......my date opening the car door for me contributes very little to my enjoyment of the date. I probably wouldn't even notice it.
So maybe there is a difference between chivalry and manners, but it's safe to say, the ones with bad manners are the ones who don't believe in chivalry.
I disagree. I have good manners, but I don't value chivalry. I don't need a date to treat me with anything beyond good manners. | |
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| How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/19/2009 5:13:49 PM | A light-hearted definition of chivalry:
A man's effort to protect a woman against every danger other than himself.
On a serious note:
I do not use the term "chivalry", but use the terms manners and respect.
I open the door for a lady or anyone close by (especially a person having difficulty), let others go first (except into potential danger – or down steps), help her (or them) down from high places, etc. I do this because I want to – not because it is expected.
Yes, the practice may be considered a bit archaic, but it does convey something about manners and attitude. If a woman regards it as old fashioned, so be it. Many in whom I might be interested appreciate the effort. | |
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