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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/19/2009 9:37:10 PM | I would be very interested in seeing some supporting data to that statement, isemene. My statement was quite obviously a personal one, an expression of a personal opinion, given the language and the context, that should be obvious. Do you ask for 'supporting data' every time someone expresses a personal opinion? (btw it is Ismene, not isemene)
you enjoy bashing from afar on a myriad of topics. Are you saying I 'bash' America on a 'myriad of topics'? Please explain this. First, your diction. Bashing is one thing, having an opinion is another. As an American, I am entitled to an opinion about America...without, I believe, it being called bashing. Indeed, anyone is entitled to an opinion about America, and I, being an American who lived there for 50 years, am very, very much entitled to one and entitled to express it without being told I am bashing.
But even further with this comment of yours, please give me examples of my criticizing America on a myriad of subjects. How interesting for you to say this. In fact, I wonder if it is a concern of yours that if I criticize anything about America, you have a problem with it because I don't currently live there. I have criticized the way Americans treat teachers; having been one there for many years, I personally know what it is like, and it is horrible the low esteem teachers are held in. The way they are put down and criticized on these forums makes it impossible to have a discussion about teaching on these forums. All I ever end up doing is try to defend teaching and teachers. So, yes, I readily confess to finding serious fault with the way America treats it teachers.
But, criticizing on a myriad of subjects? Again, please explain and give examples. And whether not, if I am indeed doing that, how does it matter if I am doing it from' afar' or not? What difference does that make? Does it give me less of a right to have an opinion about my country? Do ambassadors and others living overseas have less of a right to an opinion about America?
As far as my opinion about racism in America. I am fully cognizant of who voted for Obama. When I lived in America, I had long term, living together relationships with black men. I have nephews who are mixed race. My friends in America come from a variety of racial and ethnic backgrounds. My life has always been mult-ethinic and multi-racial. As I taught in large urban communities, my students were also very multi-racial and multi-ethnic. I knew, as it was part of my life, that race was an issue in America. However, I lived amongst and was close to those for whom race and ethnic background did not matter. I rarely dealt with racists or overt racism.
On POF and other internet sites, where apparently Americans are expressing themselves more freely than they might do in person (msg 27 is a perfect example of what I read regularly, though I have no idea if those ideas are held in check by that person if he were face to face with those who might challenge such ideas), I am seeing far more racism than I have ever seen or heard before. It is on the one hand due to, and very much due to, the way Americans present themselves on these internet sights that I find them to be very racist. Also, I view television from a different perspective than Americans do: I get news from countries all over the world, which shows a view of America you guys don't see. I also travel a lot: I observe Americans when they are traveling. They often think people cannot understand what they are saying, and they say things that show, to put it most nicely, 'provincial' in their attitudes about people who are different. I am surrounded by, in my everyday life, a community that is very much multi-national/multi-ethnic/multi-racial, and I learn how others see America and talk to them about why they see it that way.
For a variety of reasons I see that America, despite electing Obama as president, is very entrenched in racism and socially, in racist warfare. Remember, this is country that held and still holds black actors, entertainers, and athletes in the highest esteem, yet while doing that, continued on with a very racist social attitude. Those famous black people were exceptions, and it didn't change the fact that America was still, at bottom, very racist. The very fact that this thread topic comes up, and not for the first time, and that Americans are so concerned about it indicates a deeply entrenched racism. In reality, this apology is a very, very minor issue of diplomacy, a gesture that literally affects no one except to sooth some troubled waters. And, it is white Americans who are so bothered by it, hence why I suggest to you it is indeed the white Americans who still so regularly manifest a racist mindset. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/19/2009 10:20:15 PM | hi ismene. don't like my comments, refute them. refute the white men being discriminated against by affirmative action. deny that assaults on white men by blacks are several times that of blacks being assaulted by whites. explain away how two white men were beaten to death by black men in seattle and yet the black men got slapped on the wrist. i know the real african history and it's sure not being taught in schools. the british imported the slaves. importation of slaves to this country was outlawed in 1807, a mere 18 years after the election of george washington. ever heard of liberia? i am more than happy to freely debate racism, but only white on black racism is ever discussed in the media. you have dated black men, qu'elle surprise" but how many black women, white man couples have you seen? the differnce is statistically off the scale. same with hispanic men/white women versus white men/hispanic women though not to the same extreme.
racial studies have conclusively shown that black men withdraw from mainstream society, the're not excluded. blacks are keeping racism alive, not whites. i've been harassed, threatened and physically assaulted by blacks for the heinous crimes of shooting baskets with a hot cafe-au-lait girl, winning 4 straight games of crunch and daring to show up at a "black" club with a black woman. i'm not surprised that a woman who has grown up with all the special privileges that women receive in this country would have this attitude. i've been studying african history for 45 years and know where the bodies are buried. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/19/2009 10:38:30 PM | a woman who has grown up with all the special privileges that women receive in this country I have no interest in debating racism in America with you because it would be a very tiresome exercise in futility. I am curious, though, to know what special privileges I grew up with being a woman. Let's see, I grew up in a lower working class environment. I was sometimes physically and regularly verbally abused by my two brothers and was told (it was back in the 50's and early 60's) when I went to my parents for help, that I should not provoke them, that it was my fault. I was a LITTLE GIRL. Younger than them and a great deal smaller. But that was the attitude toward females back in those days. I was raised with the expectation that the only thing I would or should aspire to in life was to be a wife and mother. Higher education was not something people in my world aspired to. I got an education despite that, paying for it myself by working....no one ever helped me in anyway. In fact, no one has ever supported me financially, not since I left my parents' home at the age of 17. Never. So, I very much wonder what are all these special privileges you think I grew up with. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/19/2009 11:35:49 PM | | of course it would be an exercise in futility, ismene. i have thousands of facts stored in my organic computer, hundreds of non-pc books read and first hand experience. all you have is bluster. you may not believe this but i'm very open-minded. i have changed my position before when someone gives me a cogent fact-filled arguement that shows i'm wrong. if you can actually come up with one i'd be delighted to read it. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/19/2009 11:42:26 PM | | I don't have any desire to discuss ideas with someone who is obviously a bully about it, for one thing. Also, you seem to have spent an inordinate amount of time and energy collecting data in order to support you view point...an awful lot of energy devoted to prove what? That the white man is actually the one suffering from racism in America? And anyone who has opposing views is just expressing bluster? You only assume I have no specific knowledge beyond personal observation and experience, which in itself, in my case, is actually quite a bit. Anyway your assumption would be wrong. I won't debate with you because debating with zealots is pointless. And you still haven't told me why I have been raised, as a female, with special privileges in America. You appear to be biased against women and blacks. I am not biased against men nor against any particular race. I do, however, not care for racists or people who exhibit obvious gender bias. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:26:13 AM | | Personally I think it is an interseting thing to do. If an aplogy is sincere it is wonderful. But I think it is a bit like drudging up the past, which can be uncomfortable. I mean how do you say sorry for lifes spent. It is a personal thing within the mind of those black americans, they should have peace about in thier minds unless thier are still issues with but, all peoples have participated in fighting and war, and destruction. An apology normally goes with the fact that you are sorry and will never do it again. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 2:07:19 AM | If you want to apologize for something you did not do, then this is America. Knock yourself out.
my sentiments exactly...institutional apologies ring hollow.
Oh...BTW, Im niether Democrat nor For this bogus apology,
We all have subjugated our own race or someone elses.
No Apologies, No Reperations, lets all move on.
But,but this nation both Government and people must learn from the past and fight prejudice, discrimination and injustice of all peoples...White folk included.
................................................................
i've been studying african history for 45 years and know where the bodies are buried.
Bugsbro...it's great you have an "Organic computer" to formulate all your theories...but it sounds like me your "evidence" is either opinion or Anecdotal...
As a Student of History...You know its not the reader that has to prove the Author's Claims... | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 5:32:36 AM |
Quit teaching black American children to hate because of something so old. Minimizing something doesn't make it go away. Dismissing how others feel doesn't change anything.
Every day there are reminders for some people... it depends in part on where in the country you are living. I'm not a particular fan of reparations, but I'm even less of a fan of this "oh just get over it" attitude. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 5:36:53 AM |
Quit teaching black American children to hate because of something so old. When black American parents can send their child to school and not have to worry about the first time their child will experience being called n......r, then you can say it is 'something so old.' We are not there yet, not be a long shot. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 5:38:39 AM | Quit teaching black American children to hate because of something so old. When black American parents can send their child to school and not have to worry about the first time their child will experience being called n......r, then you can say it is 'something so old.' We are not there yet, not by a long shot.
Incident
By: Countee Cullen
Once riding in old Baltimore,
Heart-filled, head-filled with glee,
I saw a Baltimorean
Keep looking straight at me.
Now I was eight and very small,
And he was no whit bigger,
And so I smiled, but he poked out
His tongue, and called me, "N-----r."
I saw the whole of Baltimore
From May until December;
Of all the things that happened there
That's all that I remember.
we did it (apology) in Aus(tralia) so what's the big deal Exactly. What is the big deal?
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 7:51:34 AM | | I have two fears regarding the apology. The first is that it will be viewed by the Black community as "too little, too late". And that secondly that it will once again open the discussion of reparations. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 8:11:58 AM |
I don't have any desire to discuss ideas with someone who is obviously a bully about it, for one thing
Smart move. Wingnuts have no interest in discussion. None whatsoever
Also, you seem to have spent an inordinate amount of time and energy collecting data in order to support you view point...an awful lot of energy devoted to prove what?
Wingnuts take great pleasure in anecdotal "evidence". They think that "anecdote" is the single form of the word "statistics"
That the white man is actually the one suffering from racism in America?
Though their "bluster" might lead you to think otherwise, wingnuts are "perpetual victims" who are consumed by irrational fears. There isn't anything too small to make a wingnut quake in fear. That's why this thread, about something as innocous as an apology, has the wingnuts fretting about all sorts of things like affirmative action, reparations, black on white crime, womens' "special priviliges", etc.
And anyone who has opposing views is just expressing bluster?
Wingnuts have trouble understanding why anyone else would fail to acknowledge their "victimization", so they think anyone who disagrees with it are insincere | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:07:30 AM | no bush lover. typical comments from you. calling names is very second grade. don't like my numbers, refute them. when someone can't make a clear argument against something they often resort to smokescreens. it's amazing that people will cry discrimination because they are members of diversity and yet ridicule white males when we have the same experiences. calling me a "bully" because i can prove my points with official government statistics only shows that you know that you have no leg to stand on. every time a member of diversity gets a job because ofaffirmative action, a white male was discriminated against. that's the definition of affirmative action, klinefelter. anecdotes aren't part of my posts, except for personal experiences but they sure are from diversity's "proof".
personnally, i've supported women's sports for over 30 years. with my presence and money not just lip service. i raised my baby sister to do whatever she wants to do, whether its a traditional woman area or a mans. i've tutored my latino friends in english and math when they were having problems in school. i've attempted to date women of different colors and nationalities but was often unsuccessful because of the racism of their society. minority men can date white womenbut white men can't date minority women. again look up the numbers. i'm wasting my time here because zealouts like yourself refuse to accept the facts. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:32:58 AM |
calling names is very second grade. Since your first post in this thread include calling people "sanctimonious hypocrites ", I figured 2nd grade was the appropriate level to address you. Let me know when you're willing, and more importantly, ABLE to discuss the issue without you resorting to 2nd grade name-calling. So far, you have yet to write a post that doesn't include name-calling. personnally, i've supported women's sports for over 30 years. with my presence and money not just lip service. i raised my baby sister to do whatever she wants to do, whether its a traditional woman area or a mans. i've tutored my latino friends in english and math when they were having problems in school. You left out "Some of my best friends are minorities" i've attempted to date women of different colors and nationalities but was often unsuccessful because of the racism of their society. minority men can date white womenbut white men can't date minority women. again look up the numbers. I've dated numerous women of various races. I had not problem with racism. I'm not surprised you did. i'm wasting my time here because zealouts like yourself refuse to accept the facts. Glad to see you would never engage in name-calling.  | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 9:39:31 AM |
I remember being beat up because I was white
Damn...a lot if you's got you ass whooped as kids...do you think thats what fuels your distrust and cynicism...? | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 11:14:41 AM | ^^Get over yourself! No one apologized on your behalf.
The govt apologized for the actions the govt took. Stop pretending that the Senate cares about you, or even knows who you are. You're not important. Stop pretending that everything is about YOU, YOU, YOU!!! | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:05:11 PM | ^^In return, I'll thank you for once again discrediting yourself by telling blatant untruths that demonstrate your biased ignorance
It is somethang that ended 144 years ago.
Jim Crow was around in the 1970's. Your math is a little off.
I am American, so when they apologize for America they apologize for me
And once again you reveal your self-centeredness in falsely claiming that the apology is about you. Only a drama queen could think that the govt "apologized for America"
The Senate apologized for what the Senate did - it passed laws allowing slavery and Jim Crow. But keep pretending it's about YOU. I get a good laugh everytime you do it because it shows how wingnuts insist on portraying themselves as victims.
If anyone in America is feeling guilty over slavery, I would suggest that you get help. It is time to grow up.
And since you think the apology is about you, I suggest you get help. It's time to learn how to read | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:28:04 PM |
I remember being beat up because I was white
Damn...a lot if you's got you ass whooped as kids...do you think thats what fuels your distrust and cynicism...?
yes it probably is, and why not if being called a name could do it for African Americans, I am sure getting beat up is as trumatic. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:32:50 PM | I really distrust this claim by white men that the reason they are racist is because they got beat up for being white. It would be rare that black boys or men would just set on someone for no other reason than being white and beat him up. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is more likely not happening as often as these guys claim. More likely it was a result of a situation where there was some kind of conflict and an exchange of insults and challenges. And, btw, soisaid, black children don't just get called a name, they are also beaten up. It seems every time some white guy gets backed into a corner about his racism, his last line of defense is that he was beaten up as a kid for being white. It's just too convenient.
I would also say, soisaid, that getting beaten up is not as traumatic as repeatedly being called a n.....r. Not even in the same ballpark. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:40:15 PM | ^^I'll say it. No ever gets beat up for no other reason than they are white. They get beat up for being a-holes.
I have worked in EVERY bad neighborhood in NYC. Harlem, South Bronx, East NY, Crown Heights...if you can name a high-crime area in NYC, I've worked there. And I carried expensive tools while doing it. I wasn't attacked once.
It's like the whites who complain that they didn't get hired because of Affirmative Action. They can't admit that they're unqualified for the job, or that a black person was better qualified than they are. They'll even go as far as to tell you that the employer told them it was because of AA, and they never consider the possibility that the employer just said that to get them off their back, That's because it would require them to consider the possibility that the black man was more qualified | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 12:55:09 PM |
No ever gets beat up for no other reason than they are white. They get beat up for being a-holes.
Bullsh*t. Talk about making a blanket statement. that is tantamount to saying that no one ever got beat up for being gay, Black, Mexican, fat, stupid etc. Or are you saying that the gay or black people got beat up because they were ***holes and not because they were gay or black? It has to be one or the other, the sword cuts both ways.
And from personal experience I cry bullsh*t again. I got the crap kicked out of me one night after a Jr. High function by a black guy for no reason. Racial tensions were high in that school as we were all new to racial integration. One night after a school function one of the biggest and strongest black guys in the school that I just knew in passing walked up to me and said "hey' and as i turned to see who was speaking to me he jacked me in my jaw. I was stunned, and then he said "Man I am sorry, I thought you were someone else" and asked to look at my jaw where he had hurt me. In my stunned state I turned my head to show him and he hit me in the face again. This was all for no reason other than I was white. I had never had any interaction with him prior to that other than sharing a school and possibly a few classes. At that time I was built small and was a pretty quiet kid.
So, once again another NBL statement proven false. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:01:40 PM | | my point was everyone gets to pick a reason for their bad behavior. Some other people buy into it and give it creadence, others (me for instance) think it is all bullshit, everyones power point is now, right now, you look back you are giving up your power to the past. | |
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| Senate passes apology for slavery, segregation
Posted: 6/20/2009 1:05:36 PM | Have to say it here, too...sorry! It happened to me, and to most of my friends on almost a daily basis. After sixth grade, our township had no secondary schools yet, so we were sent into the closest big town for grades 7 - 9. The very first day of school, I saw my friend from my elementary school get hit in the back of the head with a pipe...there was no reason, other than to tell us that we were the "farmers" invading where we weren't wanted.
We didn't dare go to the boys room...we'd hold it all day long. If we went into the boys room, we be beaten up by at least two or three. I don't know how they got away with cutting classes and hanging out like that. The teachers and staff didn't much care about what they did. It was never the same ones all of the time...it was purely random...victims or attackers. If you went to the teachers or anyone about it, they just laughed you off, then the next time, you got it worse.
Believe me, it's true. | |
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