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Posted: 8/24/2009 8:50:03 PM | Some folks still don't get it. Iraq and Afghanistan were never some noble cause for "freeing the people" or "democracy"...
As for "PC rules of engagement", can anyone here honestly say that they would play by the rules of engagement of the invaders of our nation(s) when faced with overwelming firepower? Would anyone here not react the same way when their families were terrorized in the middle of the night, when robot drones killed entire families by mistake, or when the invaders acted like thugs blocking commerce, roadways, access to clean water and electricity? The Afghans have a long history of resisting outsiders. Our "democracy" smells just as bad to them as the other excuses to "liberate" them over the centuries. Gunpoint democracy is a sham, a nice cover for our more insideous national interests.
^^ Well said. I agree with you truly. Gunpoint democracy is a sham. I predict it will not last for the long run in Iraq either, once US troops are all gone someday. Total waste of lives sadly (on all sides), waste of money, etc. Saddam was obviously just as well 'contained', and furthermore served as a useful (generally non-religious) Sunni 'buffer' against radical Shi'ite influence in the Gulf region (such as from Iran -- which now has a much freer hand there, and undoubtedly much more influence in Iraq than it ever could have had under Saddam).
Yes he was a thuggish despot and a criminal, obviously...but so are other regimes which the US supports and allies with / does business with (are the Saudi rulers for instance so very civilized and democratic and kind to their people?? Or Mubarak of Egypt? Qadaffi is ok now as well, because he has met Washington's terms, paid his fines, etc, so he's back in bu$iness... we now are upgraded to embassies status w/Libya and, this whole Megrahi flap notwithstanding, Americans and Libyans can travel back and forth, and so on, in fact soon he WILL -- yes it's true look it up -- be pitching his famous traveling tent in NYC's Central Park when he comes to visit the US and address the UN !). Saddam furthermore was a former friend and ally of Washington anyway (when he was useful...which further illustrates the Machiavellianism and sheer hypocrisy Washington all too often uses as foreign policy).
I favor Obama on some things he has done or is trying to do, I voted for him, however, I was truly hoping he would begin to ratchet down Afghanistan occupation, and let the chips fall where they may with that truly unwinnable situation, instead of caving to the ever-present US military-industrial complex and ratcheting things UP. Now it has become his war, after he's increased troops, and so forth. | |
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Posted: 8/24/2009 9:01:02 PM |
one has to ask...what would reagan or kennedy have done?
Reagan was a Hollywood Cowboy... Kennedy was a rich motherfvcker who might have lived to a ripe old age and died in is sleep, peacefully, if he'd stayed the fvck out of politics...
Ronny was a clown... Star wars... Aliens... What the fvck?...
But Kennedy was kind of like Mary & Joseph's kid... He knew what was going to happen in Dealey Plaza; and he went anyway... | |
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Posted: 8/25/2009 1:43:01 AM | Earthpuppy and xxxDinoxxx have rendered an accurate account of the situation regarding Afghanistan and the propaganda (BS) surrounding US and Allied involvement. There is little point in adding my own elucidation other than what would be just repeating what has already been candidly conveyed. However, I thought you, the reader, might regard the story as portrayed by an Afghan woman, a Member of the Afghan Parliament with a little more credence.
Afghanistan needs to find its own way to democracy:
Malalai Joya
Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Broadcast: 30/06/2009
Reporter: Kerry O'Brien
Malalai Joya spent much of her childhood in refugee camps in Iran and Pakistan, before returning to Afghanistan in the 1990s, working to promote women's health and education. Joya was elected to parliament, has survived assassination attempts, travels with a bodyguard, but may stand again at the August election. A secular Muslim, she's a critic of fundamentalists in the Taliban and the northern alliance and says her country needs to find its own way to democracy without military intervention.
Transcript
KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: Malalai Joya spent much of her childhood in refugee camps in Iran and Pakistan before returning to her Afghanistan home in the Taliban-era of the late nineties, working underground to promote women's health and education for girls. She burst into the public eye with a brief but electrifying public appearance at a constitutional assembly in Kabul in 2003 called Loya Jirga.
A meeting dominated by the powerful men of Afghanistan, including the former Mujahedeen commanders and even some ex-Taliban officials. She was 23, and all of five feet tall. 90 seconds into her address she was shut down and thrown out of the assembly. Here's what she had to say.
MALALAI JOYA, AFGHAN PARLIAMENTARIAN: My name is Malalai Joya from the Farah Province. With the permission of all those present - and in respect of the martyrs who were killed I would like to speak. I wish to criticise my compatriots in this room. Why would you allow criminals to be present at this Loya Jirga?
War lords are responsible for our country's situation. Afghanistan is the centre for national and international conflicts. They oppress women and have ruined our country. They should be prosecuted. They might be forgiven by the Afghan people but not by history.
KERRY O'BRIEN: It would be fair to say that many of the men in that room had never been spoken to like that by a woman before.
Malalai Joya was subsequently elected to parliament, but not allowed to speak, has survived assassination attempts, travels with a permanent bodyguard, moves from safe house to safe house but may stand again at the national elections in August.
A secular Muslim, she's a fierce critic of fundamentalists in both the Taliban and the Northern Alliance and says her country needs to find its own way to democracy without the military intervention of America and its allies including Australia. She's here promoting her book, "Raising My Voice", and I spoke with her in Sydney.
KERRY O'BRIEN: Malalai Joya we've heard a lot about the bad things - the negatives - after you spoke out at Afghanistan's constitutional assembly in 2003. Threats to your life, the need to travel in disguise with bodyguards. What were the positives, what were the good things that came from you speaking out?
MALALAI JOYA: As you ask about my speech after Loya Jirga, the positive points I want to say that lots of support came from the innocent, poor suffering people of my country, men and women around Afghanistan. And the main positive points was that the masks of these fundamentalist war lords and criminals has been peeled for the great people around the world as they deceive them, and they are in power after 9/11 tragedy. These fundamentalist war lords of Northern Alliance become imposed on our people and continue their crimes and violence against men and women of our country.
And I got international support from different countries around the world in the US and here in Australia.
KERRY O'BRIEN: What difference did it make for you, becoming a member of parliament?
MALALAI JOYA: From the beginning in parliament when I want to talk they turn off the microphone, they threaten me these war lords, as majority of seats of parliament belongs to war lords, drug lords and criminals who destroyed Afghanistan. But today unfortunately they are in parliament and even made Amnesty Law, that criminal forgive themselves despite international condemnation. But it was easy for them to pass this law, and one reason that they expel me form parliament was that because inside of parliament I raised my voice against this.
KERRY O'BRIEN: How many assassination attempts have there been?
MALALAI JOYA: Until 2003, five times they did assassination attempts against me. Has now changing the houses and it’s up to the area that how much it is secure and how many I could spend there.
KERRY O'BRIEN: What was the attempt that came closest to succeeding?
MALALAI JOYA: One that was very close was when I went to my home village in Farah Province. When we want to return - when I went there friends and enemies all become aware that I'm there, but when we return in our way on approach they put bomb, We were lucky that before we arrived in exploded. In many times their planning has been exposed when they are planning to kill me they don't know that in every corner of Afghanistan I have my supporters and among their meetings sometimes their planning gets exposed. For example, when they want to beat me in parliament.
KERRY O'BRIEN: What real gains have been made since the fall of the Taliban for girls and for women?
MALALAI JOYA: There are not only Taliban who committed many crimes against men and women in our country. Especially women during the 30 Years War, they were the main and first victims and still many violences against them. But after 9/11 tragedy unfortunately because the US and its allies brought into power these fundamentalist Northern Alliance, who are mentally the same like Taliban but physically has been changed. They are in power and control Afghanistan.
There's no justice in Afghanistan. Even in front of the court of Laghman Province a woman burn herself because her husband do violence against her and when she go to the court there is no justice. Always these fundamentalists mix Islam with politics and use it as a weapon against women of my country.
This is a picture from 1967. That how the girls - groups by groups enjoy on the streets of Kabul as they wish. They wear clothes without scarf, and they're going to schools without worrying that someone will kidnap or rape or kill them. The US and its allies want to pretend to the people around the world, to show them this is the first time we brought women's right to Afghanistan, which is quite - lies.
KERRY O'BRIEN: But haven't there been basic human rights established for women in the constitution since 2001?
MALALAI JOYA: We have in our constitution rights for women and even some shortcomings of the constitution have, especially regarding the woman issue - it's not very clear. But if we put this constitution in practice, then should be hopefully positive changes slowly come in Afghanistan. But the problem is that today in Afghanistan we have jungle law. There is no freedom of press, while we have in our constitution and this freedom that even inside of parliament two journalists have been beaten just because they show the crimes of the war lords through TV or dare to write about their crimes or to talk about them. Some of them has been killed, like Shaima Rezayee has been killed. Like Zakia Zaki in Parwan in her house has been killed as she was a brave woman who always said the truth. Shokiba Sanga Amaaj in Kabul under the eyes and nose of the thousands of US troops has been killed. Ajmal Naqshbandi was a young journalist by Taliban has been kidnapped and become beheaded.
KERRY O'BRIEN: Will the election change anything?
MALALAI JOYA: Our people has no hope on this election. It's a showcase for US Government under the shield of gun war lords, drug lords, awful corruption and occupation forces, has no legitimacy at all.
KERRY O'BRIEN: But do you...
MALALAI JOYA: Only one puppet can't be replaced with another puppet.
KERRY O'BRIEN: You have been critical of President Barack Obama for increasing the American military presence in Afghanistan. But without the Americans, and NATO in Afghanistan, wouldn't your country simply descend again into a dangerous civil war, essentially between the war lords and the Taliban and Al Qaeda?
MALALAI JOYA: Everyone is talking about this time the civil war happen but what's going on today - let's do talk about - itself is like a civil war. Today our people are between two enemies, internal enemies Taliban, who are anti-US terrorists - and Northern Alliance, who are pro-US terrorists.
KERRY O'BRIEN: Where will your people, as you call them, find the strength and the power to defeat both the fundamentalists of the Northern Alliance, the war lords and the Taliban?
MALALAI JOYA: I strongly believe that no nation can donate liberation to another nation. This is the responsibility of our own people to fight for their rights to achieve values like democracy and women's rights, human rights in our country. It's a prolonged struggled, it's a risky struggle full of hardships and challenges but I trust on my people. On the history of my country.
KERRY O'BRIEN: Let me put this proposition - and this is what you are arguing against - that the only way to a true democracy has to be a very slow very painful one, maybe over decades, but that it can only happen, if in the short-term, America and NATO work to beat the Taliban and give your people a chance then to focus on democratically overcoming the war lords and the fundamentalists?
MALALAI JOYA: Only the democratic-minded men and women in some parties in Afghanistan, modern parties, democratically-minded intellectuals ... we have a democrat men and women of my country, they are the only alternative for the bright future of Afghanistan as people trust on them and they don't have bloody hands and they really believe in democracy.
KERRY O'BRIEN: You have been banned from attending the parliament, even though you are still a member of parliament. Will you run in the next election?
MALALAI JOYA: Many requests coming from people from different parts of Afghanistan. When directly underground I have an appointment with them. When they are calling me and even they are asking me to run for the presidential election and also for parliamentary election that what we can do. But as they wish I will do that, but at least now I am not sure about my tomorrow as these enemies, these fundamentalists, these war lords. As they know I never do compromise with them and they threat me more today and I have to be careful, but as much as I can, but as I am young I have energy. I wish to be alive as I have lots of hopes for the future of my country to do something for them, and more in the future.
KERRY O'BRIEN: Are you saying it is possible still, that you will run in the election and that you might even contest the presidential election?
MALALAI JOYA: I trust my people. I love my people and of course they wish I will do that but let's see that for the future. Now I can't say anything, as you know that as Brecht saying that those who do struggle may fail but those who do not has already failed. Just as I do my responsibility as much as I could serve my people. I don't have this dream that one day to be President of my country but if my people want - as today I'm a member of parliament, tomorrow as they wish I will do.
KERRY O'BRIEN: Malalia Joya thank you very much for talking to us.
Transcript of interview; http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2612972.htm
A video of the interview is also available at the above page.
(my highlighting) | |
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Posted: 8/25/2009 2:02:39 AM | Well I know this may sound a little out there but think of this way name two institutions that would profit from a war like Afghanistan continuing? Weapon manufacturers who are creating and supplying our armed forces, and the Federal Reserve (which is the privately owned bank that loans America the majority of its money!). To some people theories like sound a little to far fetch but when it comes down money many people do not see the cost of human life just the profit of war! It is just like you said why are they announcing our plans to enemies? Announcing our plans leads the enemy creating strategy which in turns continues the war and continues their profits!
If you think this ideal is bull crap then ask your self why before we even finish resetting the Afghanistan government did we invade Iraq? Then as soon as we got Sadaam out Haliburton was awarded the contract to build the pipeline that runs from the Persian Gulf(right through Iraq) up to the Mediterranean Sea? Who used to run Haliburton? Chaney our former Vice President! So folks Afghanistan was a front door for Bush and Chaney to kick down to get to Iraq! My question is why is Obama deciding to kick this door open again? Is it to draw our attention away from the fact he still has brought home the number of troops he said he was when first elected then changed after he was in office?
Hate to say it people but all of those crazed theories make a lot of sense when you look at them....well some of them lol! | |
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Posted: 8/25/2009 2:06:40 AM | Typing correction
I meant to say that Obama still has not brought back home the number of troops he said! | |
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Posted: 8/25/2009 12:42:08 PM |
I am 100% in favor of this war, as sad as it is written. For 8 years osama and his nutjobs are still out there.
and for 8 years THEY have been more than likely in Pakistan, not Afghanistan-
someone asked in an earlier post- what should the US do ..
I say we sould leave NOW
the Afghan women are often being targeted
with rape, death, acid attacks if they attend school-
we cannot end that kind of brutality with outside involvement
because the more of them we kill, the more of "them" we create
the issue of violence against women
is perceived as- an issue rather, of America imposing their cultural and religious beliefs on Afghanistan
we can not save the Afghan people
they must save themselves-
the US cannot continue to fight in wars where they target a nation because bad things are happening there
we should not attempt to alter history by killing the "bad guys"
the "bad guys" use this approach to show their people that the US is the enemy
and haven't they done a great job of that in Afghanistan?
the way that Afghanistan will be saved is only through their own people
recently, the Islamic court has sentenced two women who have not worn the "correct clothing" and one who drank a beer in public to caning-
both of these women have asked that the caning take place to show the world of the abusive practices women must endure-
that is how change will come about
not through the deaths of US men and women....
Officials and witnesses say the explosion was followed by heavy gunfire on the streets.
Earlier Tuesday, NATO officials said a bomb blast killed four U.S. service members in southern Afghanistan, making 2009 the deadliest year for coalition forces since the U.S.-led invasion eight years ago.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-25-voa16.cfm | |
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Posted: 8/25/2009 1:14:26 PM | | I think Iraq and Afghanistan are staging grounds to hone our military skills and tactics against fighting urban gurellia warfare. Seriously look at the interests out there and many people want those interests! If we are securing our protection then why did our leaders focus on Iraq first? A country who had a C- minus leader instead worrying more about North Korea or Iran! Two countries who both had and still have strong influential leaders! I mean Sudaam was trying to control his people but he didn't the type of strangle hold the Kim-Jong has on his people or the total Anti-America beliefs growing, building, and being nursed in Iran! | |
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Posted: 8/25/2009 1:49:04 PM | ^^ You're going to need more than honed military skills and new tactics against urban guerilla warfare if you think the US is ever in the near future going to be in a position to take on Iran (to say nothing of the apparently already nuclear North Korea). You're going to need something you don't have; endless reserves of $$, and young men and women ready to die. Already, we are out of #1 on that list. #2 is stretched quite thin as we speak (or rather type). The only option would be a draft of 18 - 21 yr olds, for starters. And THEN we'd see protests....we thought protests over Iraq were bad..... Understandably, not that many American parents are ready to give their sons (or daughters) to die over a "regime change" meant to , for example, "protect Israel's long-term existence" by removing the Islamic gov't of Iran. The international community would never go along with it, short of Iran literally nuking someone.
The US forces have barely held the peace in Iraq, to say nothing of the ongoing Afghan mess. And they think they'd have what it would take to hold down and occupy IRAN for years on end now as well?? And anyway, ultimately to what end?? Securing oil?? The Saudis would be the ones you'd want to take out if domination of world oil supply was truly the main goal. Securing Israel's existence?? Come on...I know the US gov't is (or at least is at times) tight with them, but they've never been THAT tight....
And drafting youngsters doesn't even touch on the whole lack of money issue. Who's going to continue giving the US gov't much-needed credit to run these endless wars forever, on debts that are apparently already not able to be repaid ? They are amazed and confounded at the current projected deficits, and that they don't have enough money to easily fund these proposed healthcare changes. No, they don't have it. But Iraq and Afghanistan at least have new zip codes, quasi-democratic / puppet gov't's, and apparently semi-permanent American occupation/police forces to protect them... Gee, all so worth it in the end..... This is exactly why I have always wholeheartedly rejected the chimera Bush fell prey to; the 'neo-conservatives' (many of whom were former Trotskyites) 'grand vision' of implanting, by force , our own political system in lands that are not truly ready or willing to accept it. | |
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Posted: 8/26/2009 7:32:49 AM |
The ONLY way to stop gurellia type warfare is to start disrupting lives. When someone shoots at us, or sets an IED off. You stop the convoy, hit the battle drill 1A React to Contact, and you go disrupt lives. You kick in doors and you make life miserable for everyone in the neighborhood. Eventually those people will get tired of getting messed with and will start pointing out and standing up against the Taliban.
They did that in Iraq for the first 5 or so years and were teetering on defeat. Only when they went to COIN operations did they change things around. The above method just creates more enemies, and like Vietnam, their ability to withstand causalities far outstrips our own.
The fact that no one speaks of is the Taliban could not operate in Afghanistan or Pakistan without the support of the people there. The people up until now have had no reason to support a government that can not provide security or improve their lives in anyway.
Fighting the Taliban on the battlefield is a no-win situation because you generate more enemies doing so. Asymmetrical warfare cannot be won through conventional means. The path of victory is by providing security and showing the people their future will be better with supporting the Afghan government and not the Taliban. If the Taliban no longer has the support of the people to operate in their communities, then they lose influence and power. | |
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Posted: 8/26/2009 7:49:49 AM | ^^ Great assessment. I'd agree. People often fail to realize Taliban is to an extent a very real 'organic' (so to speak) outgrowth of the culture of that country, or if not Taliban specifically then at least it's fair to say south Asian-style Wahabbism / Deobandism is a natural cultural occurrence there. In both Pakistan and Afghanistan. Just like Biblical literalism and 'born-again' evangelical Christianity are to an extent in America (particularly parts of the South for example; although I am not saying that is equivalent to the type of radical Islam seen over there). Even less so than foreign invaders could come here and occupy the South, and convince those...oftentimes well-armed...people to 'moderate' their brand of religion and allow the invaders to kick in doors, take away local men, etc etc, can we reasonably expect the population of Afghanistan and the 'tribal regions' to allow it to happen to them. They would (or will) resist occupation and change to their traditions , in some form or another, until the end of time. The Soviets learned that, and it cost them ... in fact it ultimately cost them the Soviet Union and their whole system as they knew it.
It's a no-win situation if ever there was one. And I would challenge President Obama to define for me clearly, without resort to rhetoric, jingoism, or teleprompter, what true 'victory' in Afghanistan will look like. In common terms, What is the point precisely. And right after he defines that, he can then tell us precisely when he expects all this to occur. If not, then he is , IMO, continuing essentially Bush-era policies (war without end) in regards to Afghanistan and pouring still further money down a worthless drain. | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 4:35:46 AM | I say I think they're training grounds because no matter what our political leaders pretty much always find ways to further American Capitalist goals! One of these is oil....where is a huge chunk of the world's oil? The middle East! Have you guys ever read the Confessions of An Economic Hitman? Some of it may sound like a great spy movie or some sheat like that but think of how quick Halliburton received the contract to build the pipeline that flows from the Caspian Sea to the Persian Gulf? I feel the this war on terrorism is just a disguise for certain companies and individuals to deepen their pockets! Honestly how are we safer from terrorist now that we have killed over half a million Iraqis and pretty much spawned a greater hate for America? If these politicians really want to help the American people they should abolish the Federal Reserve! A privately owned bank that every time it loans the American Government money it comes with an interest that can never be paid back because this money we use has no true backing!! The war in Afghanistan and Iraq was funded by loans from foreign governments and money produced by the Federal Reserve!
We don't need oil to survive....there are numerous other sources of renewable energy our country can run off of!
I'm sorry if some of you don't agree with me on but remember this is my opinion! So please don't say I'm wrong.....say you disagree! THESE ARE MAINLY OPINIONS I'M STATING NOT ALL OF IT IS FACT!
Either way though I think most can agree to many lives have been spent over all of this rather you want to say it was for our nation's security, oil, money, hate, greed, religion, or what have you! I agree with Dino and the other individual that our involvement in Afghanistan is just spawning more breeding grounds for more terrorists!
Before I go one thing I want to remind people was....what major country supplied weapons and training to help defend off the Soviet Union when it was trying to invade Afghanistan? Any of you ever wonder what could possibly come of taking over a country like Afghanistan? To any individual it should obvious that your gonna run in a enduring resistance in that country! So why? | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 8:18:26 AM | theres one fact a lot of you folks arent seeing....we didnt invade afganistan......we're not trying to conquor it either......we are presueing the taliban............and........with afganistans blessing........the scinario is very similar to vietnam when troops were sent into cambodia....you gotta go to the enemy.
face it folks..the taliban..for whatever reason.wants to see america dead...gone.wiped off the face of the earth.
i remember .very clearly...when bin laden was on tv....way before 9/11...and declared war on america..........i was holding my daughter on my lap.....she was perhaps 2 yrs old...totally innocent of anything but spilling her cup of milk......and here's this guy spitting hate and telling me.[yes.i took it personally]....that he just sentanced my lil girl to death........not to mention my sons, my wife and everyone else i hold dear.
we MUST finish this.....theres no comprimise.......because as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow morning.......if we stop before the taliban is utterly destroyed.........we WILL be attacked again.
no....i dont like war........i'm saddened each and every time one of our service personel is hurt or killed..........but we DIDNT pick this fight.......we DONT want this fight.......but we're in it.....and i hope and pray that we win this fight..........because the alternative is something that no american wants | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 8:43:01 AM |
theres one fact a lot of you folks arent seeing....we didnt invade afganistan......we're not trying to conquor it either......we are presueing the taliban............and........with afganistans blessing........the scinario is very similar to vietnam when troops were sent into cambodia....you gotta go to the enemy.
right. the Afghani's sent us a note right before we got there saying "please invade our country". they were as happy about seeing us as they were seeing the Russians and we know how that went.
so just what is it you think we are going to do? kill all the taliban? give them flat panels and turn them onto MTV? just what would "finish it" entail? building strip malls?
tell us, just what will happen when we "win"? there will be baseball parks in Kabul and clapboard churches on every corner?
ain't no winning this war and it ain't gonna get cheaper. if this is our national course of action we'd better get used to losing a pretty fair number of troops every year and get ready to continue to pour money in here. | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 8:46:38 AM | Didnt the US government do a deal with the Taliban for an oil pipeline before Seprember 11?
Am i remembering correctly?
Hows the opium production these days? increased?
Someone decided fight back, when u piss ppl off it happens. | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 9:36:04 AM | we MUST finish this.....theres no comprimise.......because as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow morning.......if we stop before the taliban is utterly destroyed.........we WILL be attacked again.
^^ There always has to be compromise. Even as we speak the US military command, under Obama, is coming to terms with the fact that they will have to eventually 'deal with' at least SOME of the (less extremely militant) elements from within the Taliban, at least in certain parts of that country. It's simply not going to go away and cannot be uprooted.
"Utterly destroyed" is completely impossible; just like when you tried to utterly destroy the Viet Cong and "uproot" Communism from southeast Asia.
As for being attacked again, the Taliban (even the worst elements from within it) have never launched nor planned to launch a single operation against foreigners on foreign soil.
Taliban are not and never have been international terrorists; they are homegrown religious militants bent on imposing their type of Islam on their own country as much as possible. All they did , in regards to BinLaden and/or 9/11, was to 'host' BinLaden (before 9/11 ever happened) and allow training camps to operate within a part of the country that was under their control (at least nominally under their control -- in reality much of that country and especially those regions end up under local tribal control anyway).
It would have been enough, following 9/11, to do fly-over bombing sorties and completely destroy those camps, and then work cooperatively with Pakistani military and intelligence to capture as many of the higher-ranking terrorists as possible (many of them , such as key 9/11 planner Khalid Shaikh Muhammad and Ramzi bin alShibh, fled into Pakistan anyway). No invasion , much less semi-permanent occupation, of Afghanistan was even truly necessary.
In fact, the US captured its highest-ranking terrorists (such as the two I just named) in Pakistan, working hand in hand with Pakistani military and intel, NOT through the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. Through that invasion, most of what they netted there were small-fry, local Taliban grunts (at best) and (at worst) wrongly captured shepherds and farmers mistaken as militants (who nonetheless probably ARE militants now, following their treatment in American hands...). | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 10:13:12 AM | ** Dino I agree with you on that and man you need a radio show!!
-To raxarsr
Ok I never remember Osama Bin Laden declaring war on America before 9/11 especially on television! I could be wrong but I'm youtubing and googling and yahooing but I'm not finding any that were aired before 9/11! Hell from what I remember the captured journalists videos did not start until after the invasion of Afghanistan! So sir if you could link a video of a tv show post dated before 9/11/01 that clearly shows him doing so I would appreciate it. Because I feel something is a miss here....either you could be making something up, the government is hiding information, or the world wide web(thank you thread 12 things your not supposed say in the office anymore) has possibly lost these videos! I'm not trying saying you are lying but could be incorrect on when you remember seeing these and I say this on the grounds that eye witness testimony is not always so reliable. | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 11:21:49 AM |
we MUST finish this.....theres no comprimise.......because as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow morning.......if we stop before the taliban is utterly destroyed.........we WILL be attacked again.
the taliban will never be completely destroyed because ITS NOT A PERSON
it's a movement...
the more you try to end a religious movement or cause
the stronger it becomes
because people who are pursecuted, or feel like they have been
fight back
that is human nature
so please all you hawks-
stop thinking there are an infinite number of taliban out there-
they continue to grow
because the US continues to express ideas like "we have to utterly destory them" | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 11:38:04 AM | you need a radio show!!
 That's what *I* keep saying!!!
As far as the reality of the US-led coalition, and the US-backed Afghan gov't, having to eventually "talk to" the Taliban, I forgot to add some helpful links:
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/08/01/talking-to-the-taliban/
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/world/asia/18taliban.html
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1883854,00.html
One way or the other, IMO you WILL hear of peace talks between the Taliban and the coalition/US-backed gov't. It's in everyone's best interest to start wrapping things up one of these upcoming months......or actually probably one of these upcoming years but, my bet is it starts to happen in earnest before Obama's next election. I believe he's far too politically astute to have come this far only to risk it all on 'war without end' in Afghanistan. He HAS to have absorbed this, after watching the mistakes of the GW Bush administration over its final three to four years.... | |
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| Afghanistan War
Posted: 8/27/2009 11:39:52 AM | The Taliban in Afghanistan were much like our religious right here, just trying to impose their version of religion on everyone else in their country. They were not all that friendly with Al Qaeda until after the Caspian Sea Pipeline negotiations broke down with the US/Enron. The US had already threatened to attack Afghanistan well before 9/11, under the guise of going after Bin Laden, though Bin Laden had been a much lower priority for the Bush administration than the pipeline deal.
W ith every air strike prior to, and the invasion after 9/11, the US actions served to create and strengthen a symbiotic relationships between the Taliban and Al Qaeda, both committed to fending off the latest invaders of Arab lands and their oil. Bin Laden had stated that the US reaction to 9/11 via the Afghan invasion, played into the hands of Al Queda, strengthening them and garnering widespread support in the Arab world. The Iraq attack, escalating our aggression against Afghans, and drone attacks on civilians in Pakistan have all served to increase the ranks of Al Qaeda and attract sympathizers from other groups.
Bush was not all that concerned with Osama Bin Laden prior to 9/11, used him for a temporary scapegoat afterwards, and when fully engaged in the oir wars, again seemed to care less about Al Qaeda. It has always been about oil, the PNAC agenda, and a bit of lil Bush's ego issues.
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02) | |
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| Afghanistan War
Posted: 9/17/2009 6:35:45 AM | 6 Italian troops killed overnight along with 10 Afghan civilians.
RIP.
KABUL/ROME (Reuters) - A suicide car bomber killed at least 16 people, including six Italian soldiers, in an attack on a military convoy on a road in the centre of Kabul on Thursday, the worst strike suffered by Italians in Afghanistan.
Cheers
F.P. | |
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| Afghanistan War
Posted: 9/17/2009 6:56:10 AM |
our country is at war
no its not
Don't be silly
Your country is just invading other countries who cannot defend themselves and who pose no threat to you. | |
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| Afghanistan War
Posted: 9/17/2009 7:14:05 AM |
i remember .very clearly...when bin laden was on tv....way before 9/11...and declared war on america..........i was holding my daughter on my lap.....she was perhaps 2 yrs old...totally innocent of anything but spilling her cup of milk......and here's this guy spitting hate and telling me.[yes.i took it personally]....that he just sentanced my lil girl to death........not to mention my sons, my wife and everyone else i hold dear.
Imagine how it would make you feel if someone dropped bombs on your home or men with guns broke in during the night and detained you and any other men in the household who are on fighting age.This is what the U.S,Canadians and British are doing and have been doing in the middle east.
we MUST finish this.....theres no comprimise.......because as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow morning.......if we stop before the taliban is utterly destroyed.........we WILL be attacked again.
As long as the U.S goes around bullying other countries and killing innocent people you WILL be attacked.
no....i dont like war........i'm saddened each and every time one of our service personel is hurt or killed..........but we DIDNT pick this fight.......we DONT want this fight.......but we're in it.....and i hope and pray that we win this fight..........because the alternative is something that no american wants
Stop thinking about yourself for once in your life...you think the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan want this?
It's so easy to pull out the moral card and be gung hoe for war when its thousands of miles from your homeland. Think about how awful 911 was...now multiply that by any HUGE number you can think of and that is what the U.S is currently doing.
A bunch of saudi's flew 2 planes into some towers killing what....3000 people? The U.S invasion and occupation of Iraq has seen anywhere from 100 000 to 600 000 civilians dead(depends on who you ask) Don't you give a **** about them?Can you imagine this happening in the U.S?
Killing people doesn't solve anything...im half your age and know that already.....COME ON! | |
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| Afghanistan War
Posted: 9/17/2009 7:21:37 AM | theres one fact a lot of you folks arent seeing....we didnt invade afganistan......we're not trying to conquor it either......we are presueing the taliban............and........with afganistans blessing........the scinario is very similar to vietnam when troops were sent into cambodia....you gotta go to the enemy.
What would you call it if 50 thousand + Russian troops showed up in the U.S because they believe some crazy extreme group of people from the U.S blew up a building in Russia?
come on man you don't believe half the shit your saying...... | |
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| Afghanistan War
Posted: 9/17/2009 7:57:40 AM | ok but remember, the enemy gotta go to you too.
and we're creating enemies by the millions these days. | |
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| Afghanistan War
Posted: 9/21/2009 9:32:26 AM | this thing was a really bad idea from the very start and there is no making it better.
KABUL (Reuters) - The Afghan war will be lost unless more troops are sent to pursue a radically revised strategy, the top U.S. and NATO commander said in a confidential assessment that lays out stark choices for President Barack Obama.
In the assessment, sent to Washington last month and leaked on Monday, Army General Stanley McChrystal said failure to reverse "insurgent momentum" in the near term risked an outcome where "defeating the insurgency is no longer possible."
A copy of the 66-page document was obtained by the Washington Post and published on its website with some parts removed at the request of the government for security reasons.
"Resources will not win this war, but under-resourcing could lose it," McChrystal wrote.
"Failure to provide adequate resources also risks a longer conflict, greater casualties, higher overall costs and ultimately, a critical loss of political support. Any of these risks, in turn, are likely to result in mission failure."
McChrystal, who commands more than 100,000 Western troops, two thirds of them American, has drafted a separate request spelling out how many more he needs but has not sent it to the Pentagon, which says it is considering how he should submit it.
Opinion polls show Americans and their European NATO allies turning against the nearly eight-year-old war.
A request for more troops faces resistance from within Obama's Democratic Party, which controls Congress, but refusing to give McChrystal what he wants would open Obama to criticism from Republicans who say he should act quickly.
In a series of interviews on Sunday Obama said he would not rush to a decision and wanted to first review his strategy for the region before considering whether to send more troops.
"I just want to make sure that everybody understands that you don't make decisions about resources before you have the strategy ready," he told ABC.
Obama does not even expect a request for more troops for "a little bit, because there's an assessment ongoing of where we are right now," spokesman Robert Gibbs added on Monday. "The president is going to focus on getting the strategy right."
McChrystal's spokesman, Lieutenant-Colonel Tadd Sholtis, said that while McChrystal does not believe he can defeat Afghanistan's insurgency without more troops, he could carry out a mission with different goals if Obama ordered it.
"The assessment is based on his understanding of the mission as it was presented to him. If there's a change in strategy, then the resources piece changes," he said. He said McChrystal had no intention of resigning if Obama denies his request.
GRIM PICTURE
In his assessment, McChrystal painted a grim picture of the war so far, saying "the overall situation is deteriorating."
He called for a "revolutionary" shift putting more emphasis on protecting Afghans than on killing insurgents.
"Our objective must be the population," he wrote. "The objective is the will of the people, our conventional warfare culture is part of the problem. The Afghans must ultimately defeat the insurgency."
In a methodical critique of the war's conduct over the past eight years, he said NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) troops often lacked basic understanding of Afghan society. He also strongly criticized the Afghan government as having lost the faith of the country's people.
"The weakness of state institutions, malign actions of power-brokers, widespread corruption and abuse of power by various officials, and ISAF's own errors, have given Afghans little reason to support their government," McChrystal said.
Among the failures: Afghan prisons had been allowed to become sanctuaries where al Qaeda and Taliban fighters recruit more followers and plan attacks.
Even the West's multibillion dollar development aid programs came in for blunt criticism: "Too often these projects enrich power brokers, corrupt officials or international contractors and serve only limited segments of the population."
In the weeks since the assessment was written, Afghanistan has held a disputed election, which makes it more difficult to persuade Western countries to send additional troops.
European allies, whose governments support the war often over public opposition at home, have begun openly wavering.
Britain has suffered its worst combat casualties in a generation, German troops called in an air strike that killed scores of people, and last week six Italian soldiers were killed by a bomb, all events that sapped European support for the war.
Thousands of Italians packed the streets of Rome on Monday for a state funeral for the soldiers, amid mounting calls for Italy to pull its troops | |
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