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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/28/2009 5:06:12 PM | i do wish people would quit comparing him to people like mozart and the beatles. i consider that sacrilege. i put them in a class of transcendents, along with shakespeare, van gogh and martha graham (who, incidentally, trained madonna). no way he could compare with the true greats.
for the record, the most recorded song in history is yesterday,' with over 3,000 covers. none of jackson's music will come anywhere near that. the blend of the minor key, the chord progressions and that cello combine to create an actual masterpiece. when a songwriter can utilize unlikely instruments like that, you have someone pushing the envelope. and it happens over and over in the beatles music.
mozart also chose to feature instruments no one else of his time did.
i won't go into all of the ways great artists work within their forms. but they don't involve redundancy, popular pressure and predictability. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/28/2009 7:38:14 PM | I don't need to compare Michael Jackson to Mozart, The Beatles or any one else.
But I do find Micheal Jackson very inspiring and Messianic. I could care less who doesn't feel that way, go find your Messiah and when you find him or her say wonderful things about him or her if you know how to worship someone. I see Michael Jackson through rose coloured glasses, who do you admire. I believe that he is with God now, maybe you don't that's okay. Do you believe in God? Michael Jackson is love. Eat that my friends. He became successful because of a combination of his father's determination, his mother's love, his brother's efforts, his fans support and God's gifts. Now chew on that. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/28/2009 8:43:41 PM | I can't believe people want to compare him to Beatles or Elvis and argue over who is most popular. Each is an Icon in their own right.
But no one touched the entire World the way Michael did. That's because he transcended color and cultural lines. He was the first black artist who's music I ever bought.
And someone mentioned the Beatles having five Thrillers. What about Bad, Off The Wall, Dangerous? And that's not even going into the Jackson 5 material. They had four number one hits, Michael had 13 including a song which debuted at number 1. The only artist at the time to do this. And "We are the World'' which was also his project went to number 1 as well.
In 2008 Thriller was still going strong, it was the 32nd biggest album selling in the world. And with his death it will sell even more.
As for the guy angry over Thriller always being voted the best video ever, you have to understand that at the time he set the standard for videos. Before that people stood around and lip synched to their music. Other than Duran Duran, Michael was the only one truly creating a story with his videos. He made MTV what it was in the 80's and which it will obviously never be again. It became important to put out a great video to sell your song. He also influenced fashion. I know I had the parachute pants that he made popular.
People have covered his songs, they have also sampled his music in their songs as well. His music is just as timeless as any other artists. Anyone who can't seem to accept that he is an icon, a musical genius, and one of the most talented ever....well ya'll are just haters. And you can remain haters....for as long as Michael's legend lives on. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/28/2009 8:55:43 PM | I think the media and his father hurt him enough in life. His painful isolation caused in large by being in the public eye and having a disfiguring illness from a young age should make everyone want to fully support their child. To be called a pedophile a man who is cleared of charges having the first boy admit that his uncle made him lie and knowing that the seccond boy's mother stayed downstairs with Michael while the boy slept upstairs still you want to dirty the man's name. No wonder he had hidden cameras on him at all times I'm sure that even sitting in a room watching hour after hour of him just trying to live board people to tears. Why the world suffers such liers and fools as Bashiar and pays them defame humans so poor soft headed men/women will watch the news? How much did that man get for that trash? I read Mark and others repeating it as if they never saw the rest of the story so it was obviously not a full report but an op/ed.
Focus on MJ's true life writing proforming and all the things he did for people with out even asking for recognition. Let's not compare him to Elivs never wrote a song and although some will say he was a great artist anyone who remembers the songs he stole will believe Elivs to be a cover artist who stole a lot of songs from the orginal writer/recording artist. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 4:02:11 AM |
Of course Mozart was a genuis with classical music...as was Beethoven...both considered eccentric and ''off'' in their time periods. Lennon and McCartney also geniuses at songwriting. Elvis was a genius showman. Prince is a genius producer and musician. Eddie Van Halen, Slash, Jimi Hendrix, and Steve Stevens are genius guitar players. Bob Dylan a genuis songwriter (but I don't listen to his music)....There are a lot of people I give credit to who I don't even listen to.
By referring to a bunch of people who excel in a discipline as "genius" you dilute the meaning of the term. What next... was Julia Child a genius chef, was Bob Vila a genius handiman, was Bob Hope a genius comic?
As for old Rudy Valentino I've never seen him described as a genius. Only a gorgeous guy who made women swoon.
The statement is a nonstarter. The reason you never saw Valentino described as a genius because nobody asserted that and that includes me. That's like saying "I've never seen Valentino described as Irish." And referring to him as "old" is equally silly. That's like saying "Old Jim Morrison was a talent" or in 30 years referring to "Old Michael Jackson was a great performer."
I do agree that Valentino is chiefly, if not solely, remembered as a sex symbol, and his popularity, though immense at the time, was based on focalized adulation. David Hasselhoff is HUGE in Germany, too.
Michael Jackson was and is extremely popular worldwide including in countries where tastes tend to lag by a few decades. I've lived and traveled abroad , and it amazes me to find people engrossed in Saturday Night Fever and the disco, or to be in places where the comedy of Jerry Lewis is considered not only topical, but of superlative quality.
No, I am not comparing Jackson with disco or Jerry Lewis. What I am saying is popularity, even manifested as millions of fans, isn't necessarily an accurate gauge of a person's artistic worth. I know many of Jackson's fans like to invoke such things, but I am one fan who will not.
I have a deep appreciation for all the things Michael Jackson accomplished in his life. At the same time I don't let notions of popularity and fandom affect my critical assessment of his abilities. And to be clear, I will also not permit the unfortunate man's characterological issues, as disturbing as they are/were, influence my judgment. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 7:23:22 AM | look maybe he was a good artist, maybe not.
the fact he was into little boys makes him nolo contendere
his hell is gonna be his dad beating the shit out of him forever, and doing him in teh butt. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 8:13:48 AM | I do wish people would quit comparing him to people like Mozart and The Beatles. - junipermoon
I haven't compared MJ to The Beatles or Mozart. I think that's absurd and a waste of time. I mentioned John Lennon in a previous MJ post because I think too many people seem to be confused over the definition of the word "Humanitarian." A humanitarian needs to do more than record a few good songs that make people feel like dancing. Hey, I know that's important as well, but a humanitarian needs to put his own self interests aside for the good of the people. I think MJ started out in the right place. He was a gentle, compassionate person. (For those who need further definitions, "Compassionate" isn't the same as "Passionate." "Passionate" means easily aroused to anger or capable or affected by intense feeling. "Compassionate" means sympathetic consciousness of other's distress together with a desire to alleviate it. I think Michael had that at first. However, the richer and more famous he got, his sense of humanity got clouded. He ended up a confused and self absorbed man. So did John Lennon and Elvis. Of the three of them, only John stepped outside of his jaded world and tried to do some good for humankind. And that was brief. After protesting the war for awhile, he gave up and went into seclusion. My point is, give MJ all the credit you want for his extraordinary music, but don't call him a great humanitarian. Because the last several years of his life, he was far, far from that. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 8:31:15 AM | Hitler put jewish people in ovens and is anti-christ. MJ butt rapes little boys and destroys their lives and has gay people dancing in time square to celebrate his life. WTF has the world come to?
When he started turning white it started going down hill... | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 8:41:43 AM |
the fact he was into little boys makes him nolo contendere
Excuse me, but that makes no sense. I believe you chose the wrong Latin phrase for the meaning you want to convey.
nolo contendere literally means "I do not wish to contend", and as a legal term means "No contest" which is neither an admission of guilt or of innocence, but carries the same immediate effect of a guilty plea.
I think a more appropriate Latin expression is
qua illic smoke , illic incendia
("smoke" is not a Latin term, but lacking a suitable synonym for same, it's inserted) | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 9:15:43 AM | message #47...i like your poem a LOT...thanks for sharing.
Opinions are opinions even its negative ones.
I dont care what people says about him as a pedophile and some shi t like that.
who are way to judge???If he was a pedophile,changed his race and more crap..he was the ONLY one who were responsible with all his actions and only God can judge him.
Whats our difference with Michael Jackson we are not saint ourselves.
Who knows some posters here are pedohiles itself,a wife beater, a deadbeatdads/moms,
cheaters,pervs,cheating on their taxes,incest,gossipers, liars, killers,anymore to say?
Everyone of us have our own flaws and have our own evil ways..the difference with Michael Jackson that he was a celebrity with a class while we the members here at POF are low profiles and we hide our evil ways in our closet.
Judge NOT as we dont be judged.
You have to clean the speck of your eyes before removing someone's peck of their eyes.
Let the man lead to rest..he's gone..lets pray for his soul,unless youre an atheist then..bye Michael!
As for me...I dont need to know who really he was..its pointless..hes gone. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 9:50:33 AM | | Sandor I suppose you were at Neverland and saw all this happen. Because apparently you are the only one who has made the doing boys in the butt claim. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 10:00:28 AM | Balboa perhaps you were not familiar with the millions of dollars Jackson gave to charities around the world. "We are the World'' itself raised millions for the starving in Africa. A project that started with BandAid in Europe and then came here with Michael and Quincy JOnes working on the American Front. When he dangled Prince Michael II over the balcony he was in Germany to receive an award for all the charitable work he had done on behalf of children.
What got him in trouble withthe law was his willingness to take sick kids into his home, and give them a place to stay and pay for their medical treatments.
John Lennon preached peace and did his humanitarian thing too. Both were great humanitarians.
As for the word ''genius'' apparently certain people want to argue over it's meaning. I refuse to argue. There are people I believe are geniuses...and Michael is one of them. It is not about popularity either. It's based on the large volume of hit music that he was able to produce, the videos he all had his handprint on, the choreographies and shows he envisioned and brought to life with other talented people. These were all his visions. Berry Gordy stated that people would call him and say ''Michael won't listen,he wants to do things like this, not how I tell him to do it." and Berry would say ''let michael do what he wants, he knows what he is doing."
The audition tape was dismissed as a ''precocious'' child dancing and singing. There have been a lot of precocious child stars who were not able to transcend their stardom into adulthood. Because that is all they had going for them. Clearly Michael had talents beyond just a ''precocious'' child dancing and singing.
Now you can dismiss everything I'm saying as me being just a ''fan'' supporting him. YOu don't have to listen to me...but if you turned on the tv and see Berry Gordy, Quincy Jones, Stevie Wonder, Daryl Hall, Liza Minelli, Kenny Rogers, Usher, P Diddy.....and so on and so forth basically saying all the things I've said...then at some point maybe it will kick in.....this was more than just a precocious child who could sing and dance. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 10:09:50 AM |
When he dangled Prince Michael II over the balcony he was in Germany to receive an award for all the charitable work he had done on behalf of children.
I don't understand the meaning of this nonsequitur. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 11:28:47 AM | | I think our biggest mistake is to put all these people on a pedestal in the first place and go into shock when they do something or get accused of something less than perfect. In Michaels case far less than perfect. My favorite musician is Billy Corgan but I can admit that he seems like an egocencentric pretentious pr**k. I'll never throw away the art he makes because I love what comes out of him as an artist under ANY circumstances. Person and art are separate IMO. In Michaels case, I like his music but he's not even in my top 50 artist. The only reason I've made post in regards to him is that I knew people were going to jump on a bandwagon to down anyone that loved his ART when it's a TRIBUTE thread. "Goodbye Michael Jackson.... " is what the thread is titled and people should have the right to that. Opinions are cool but why didn't ANY of the people who were more concerned with crucifying him for his accusations or even his accolades start a different thread where it's more topical. It just seems to be people baiting people which seems unnecessary. This is not directed at any particular person but I believe that we are missing the point of what art is. Maybe the art world would be better if artist just released material anonymously to be judged on it's own merit! Peace! | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 11:31:52 AM |
Sandor I suppose you were at Neverland and saw all this happen. Because apparently you are the only one who has made the doing boys in the butt claim.
so he gave that kid in '93 $22 million out of the goodness of his heart? ....or did he do it so he wouldn't ruin his career with stories of sodamy and... a detailed description of jackson's junk!
c'mon!
i really don't give two shits about what folks are into sexualy, but children is unacceptable. i could never support anyone like that, moonwalk or no moonwalk | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 12:08:59 PM | Marathonman, get your sorry head out of the Billboard charts. You're merely being a bean counter- I'm talking about, um, ART here.
Name the "like 5 "thrillers".
"Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band", "Magical Mystery Tour", "Revolver", "The White Album", "Abbey Road", "Let It Be", and probably "Yellow Submarine" and "Rubber Soul". WE'RE NOT TALKING SALES OR CHART POSITIONS. The music from those albums have been widely played and heard every year since 1970.
In terms of what? What would you use as the criteria here? In terms of sheer volume of sales MJ wins hands down!
See, in terms of Elvis, I was not talking record sales, charts, concerts- although in those first 5 years Elvis clearly dwarfed every other music act in way that has not been seen since. That all contributed to the "shadow" he cast, but equally as big, if not bigger, was the CULTURAL IMPACT. You seem not to grasp this. There is a line in the popular culture- there is before Elvis, and after Elvis. Elvis Presley signifies a CHANGE in American pop culture. He is credited, rightly or wrongly, with the start of rock and roll. He is credited, rightly or wrongly, with the true begining of merging white and black popular music (outside of jazz). So when call him a "burp" and "the Vanilla Ice of Rock and Roll" your ignorance shows.
Your contintion that Dylan had more of an affect on culture has no merit. Prove it! Never have seen Dylans style of dress, dance copied by so many people.
Wow man, you really don't get it. I said "effect on the culture". On this, Bob Dylan doesn't simply win hands down, it's not even an argument or contest. First of all, "style of dress" is not "culture". Really. It's fashion. When talking about MUSIC, it's a mere sidebar. Not only is it not relevant, it's not meaningful. Fashion is by its nature ever-changing and trendy, and performers are forever changing their "look" and die-hard fans are copying it. Truth be told, if you're going to go that way, I've seen more people have their fashion influenced by Dylan and the Sex Pistols than I have by Michael Jackson. I haven't seen that many "real people" walk around town with one white glove or anything. And dance? Who cares? That's not a criteria. (And you know Dylan never moves more than tapping his foot, right?)
In case you didn't know or couldn't tell, Bob Dylan came along and broke just about every rule regarding singers and entertainers (didn't dress up, wrote and performed his own material in the folk tradition, shunned the mainstream) and suceeded. His success is not measured in # 1 singles, records sold, sell out concerts, or dance moves. His success came in forcing everyone to rethink it meant to be an "entertainer" and what pop music was or could do. His success is that he is still performing to this day, nearly 50 years later, pretty much on his own, NON-COMMERCIAL terms.
Michael Jackson never pretended to be that kind of performer, not for a second. Jackson only sought to be an entertainer. Comparing Jackson to Dylan via those standards is as nonsensical as comparing the # 1 records or albums sold between the two- completely wrong standards.
....propaganda. The facts paint a different story.
As long as we're talking facts, you might want to own up to the FACT that "Thriller" as been passed by The Eagles "Greatest Hits Vol. 1" as best selling album of all time. (In the US certainly)
When talking of art and culture, there aren't "facts"- the entire thing is subjective. You can't state that it's a FACT that Michael Jackson has a larger legacy on the culture than Bob Dylan or The Beatles. You're merely tallying sales figures. There is no empirical figure for what I'm talking about. I can easily out-argue you on the cultural front, but there isn't a chart or figure that can be pointed to:it's all in perception and however you construe "influence". I happen to measure it in the way people think, particulary those people who "think seriously" about it: you're looking at 8 year olds moonwalking. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 12:29:05 PM |
What about Bad, Off The Wall, Dangerous?
Yeah, what about them? Let's see, "Bad" had 2 good songs, "Off The Wall" has only 1 I like and 2 more (I believe) that are still played. And "Dangerous"? "Black Or White" was simply okay, everything off of that album is forgettable (and I've already forgotten it). We can go back and forth what YOU like verus what I like, but to this day I hear a total of 6 songs from those 3 albums- and I still hear that many from "The White Album" alone.
As for the guy angry over Thriller always being voted the best video ever, you have to understand that at the time he set the standard for videos. Before that people stood around and lip synched to their music. Other than Duran Duran, Michael was the only one truly creating a story with his videos. He made MTV what it was in the 80's and which it will obviously never be again. It became important to put out a great video to sell your song.
Don't get into it with a 1980s music video geek.... Michael Jackson did not "set the standard" for music videos- no one artist did. Don't say that simply "before" people stood around and simply lip synched- I can generate a list of 100 examples before "Thriller" to debunk that. And don't say "he made MTV"- it was a two way street (they helped him) and plenty of us, PLENTY of us, would watch MTV to see videos by more obscure groups and not anything by MJ.
Don't simply toss around that old label "hater" - actually I'm surprised it took this long to pop up. There are some of us with better memories and a deeper knowledge (and frankly, love) of these things than the "average" person. My passion for music videos back in the day is why I remember jems like "Good Morning, Judge" by 10cc, "Accidents Will Happen" by Elvis Costello, and "One Step Beyond" by Madness. I'm completely disinterested that the "average" person hasn't seen these- they weren't seen by that many people when they were new. The "average" person doesn't carry around an massive knowledge of early music videos, and thus is liable to fall for the old saw that Michael Jackson "made MTV" and "the best videos". It's not true, it's not accurate, and don't get testy when someone who knows a thing or two about it pushes back on it. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 1:17:09 PM | I was born in 1939.
I've been around for a long line of music genres.
I enjoy almost all of them other than opera and nosetwanghillbilly noise.
My favorite genre is jazz.
I have more than a K of 78s, vinyl, casettes, CDs and DVDs.
I have an attitude much like Sinatra did.
I'm a straight guy who is aggressively assertive.
I did this, that and other stuff, including some stuff in Nam that is best left there.
With all that, I am NOT a guy who is too damn cowardly to show my soft side.
Sounds like there are quite a few here who ARE so, they have to appear like a tough guy and call Jackson names, etc.
Well, if they so KNOW that he did what they are stating, they must have BEEN THERE.
Hmmm. Doesn't that make them complicit in whatever it is they're blathering about?
How else could they absolutely KNOW these things?
Arrest them, they were THERE!!
So, MJ had a real bstard for a father.
So did I.
When I was a little kid, my Ma had a miscarriage.
MY bastrd father used to like to say to me and/or in front of me that "the wrong one lived".
I have a lot of empathy for MJ due to being able to understand how it felt to have those things done to one's self.
I pretty much had a lot of MY childhood stolen from me so, I say that I KNOW what he meant when he wrote this:
"Have you seen my Childhood?
I'm searching for the world that I come from
'Cause I've been looking around
In the lost and found of my heart...
No one understands me
They view it as such strange eccentricities...
'Cause I keep kidding around
Like a child, but pardon me...
People say I'm not okay
'Cause I love such elementary things...
It's been my fate to compensate,
For the Childhood
I've never known...
Have you seen my Childhood?
I'm searching for that wonder in my youth
Like pirates in adventurous dreams,
Of conquest and kings on the throne...
Before you judge me, try hard to love me,
Look within your heart then ask,
Have you seen my Childhood?
People say I'm strange that way
'Cause I love such elementary things,
It's been my fate to compensate,
For the Childhood I've never known...
Have you seen my Childhood?
I'm searching for that wonder in my youth
Like fantastical stories to share
The dreams I would dare, watch me fly...
Before you judge me, try hard to love me.
The painful youth I've had
Have you seen my Childhood..."
It sure would be nice to be right in front of some of the jerks who enjoy hiding behind POF to call someone names who they truly know nothing about.
I don't look at MJ in any manner of hero worship butt, I sure as hell can enjoy some of his music and understand his sad, loneliness. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 1:35:13 PM | Balboa, perhaps you were not familiar with the millions of dollars Jackson gave to charities around the world. "We are the World'' itself raised millions for the starving in Africa. - raiderfan18
As I mentioned before, I think Michael's heart was in the right place in the beginning. If he was donating millions of dollars when it was his money and he had the money to spare, we owe him thanks and recognition for that. If he was still donating millions of dollars to select charities after his money was gone and he was in debt, that's pretty suspicious. If he continued to make donations after that sex scandal occured, it was likely a desperate attempt to rebuild his image and to make amends for what he'd done without doing time. Pretty sad legacy for someone who could have avoided being disgraced simply by keeping "Little Michael" in his pants. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 2:41:20 PM |
Pretty sad legacy for someone who could have avoided being disgraced simply by keeping "Little Michael" in his pants. uh Rocky balboa, were you a star witness to MJ's sexual activities in his life? Why didn't you come around sooner you could have made millions selling your story to the National Enquirer or People magazine. Call TMZ, I am sure they want to hear your story. Being you judge a dead man on how much he should have gave to charity in his life and obviously he didn't do enough to make it into your little humanitarian book. Why I am sure his whole family and all his fans are so disappointed now that we have learned this. | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 2:55:32 PM | Your contintion that Dylan had more of an affect on culture has no merit. Prove it! Never have seen Dylans style of dress, dance copied by so many people.
Wow man, you really don't get it. I said "effect on the culture". On this, Bob Dylan doesn't simply win hands down, it's not even an argument or contest. First of all, "style of dress" is not "culture". Really. It's fashion.
Yep. That's true. Absolutely correct. This is, as the stupendous Frank Zappa would say, "The crux of the biscuit." It's a commentary on how disconnected this MTV fed generation have gotten in regards to what really matters. Words like nobilty, honor, and chivalry have little meaning anymore. The modern aspirations today are what MJ stands for, FAME AND THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR! It's isn't so much what you do anymore, it's how you look doing it! Sad, sad, sad.
PS: Uh, please just alittle crazy II, don't quote me another line from Wikipedia! If anybody is influenced by all the media hype, IT'S YOU! I'm not the one who assumes that the people who think that MJ is a little angel can't be wrong! I don't need to "sell my stories." They're case records. You get an A in MJ loyality, but you get a F in really doing your homework! | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 3:20:37 PM | Only god can judge him now............ but i sure do hope it makes it to heavn cos im looking forward to a dance off with him! 
RIP Mr Jackson.......... thank you for the music moves and magic that will never be seen again. (til i moonwalk with ya in god garden) | |
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| Goodbye Michael Jackson..................
Posted: 6/29/2009 4:04:45 PM | They're case records. Oh that's right the divorced father who was a Dentist who drugged his own son so he could record that his penis was fondled by MJ. Maybe you should look at the case records. And we can not forget about the Mom who had a son who had cancer and continuously bothered MJ to have his son stay over so she could sue him later. Which she lost in court. No I am not a MJ frantic fan and never was. But the Media BS you read in the funny papers is not real news. And your opinion doesn't prove anything. Why don't you back up your words with proof. You can't! | |
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