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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/5/2009 6:28:02 PM |
I was simply flipping the ridiculous argument on its head. Consent to sex in one case should not mean the preclusion of becoming a parent in another case. Post-conception options should be had by all. If the woman as one party makes the choice to be a mother knowing the your former sex partner does not want to be a father or father children with you, there should be an option. The law as it stands punishes males while holding female sexuality unaccountable. Various traumatic abortion procedures notwithstanding. If you mean women shouldn't be able to force men to be fathers and pay child support for illegitimate children, I agree. (and I am female) | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/5/2009 11:25:43 PM |
I was simply flipping the ridiculous argument on its head. Consent to sex in one case should not mean the preclusion of becoming a parent in another case.
Lawyer I kind of get what you are saying, at the same time my oldest daughters father, fathered kids all over the place, there were a LOT of abortions, and then the few that weren't... He only paid $75.00 a mo for a couple years, then claimed he was to broke to pay for any more kids, let me see he has seven kids???
If he had not procreated out of wedlock prior to meeting me, and after meeting me, then perhaps I would be a bit more understanding, considering he did, Nah, I have no pity for him at all...
If a man doesn't want to be a father, just as if a woman doesn't want to be a mother, then freaking take precautions... Thinking having the burden of the pregnancy is a walk in the park, especially if it is a youngling like 14 or 15 yr old girl?(I was 19, by the way, so body was better prepared)
Honestly, if a man wants to play, he damned well better be willing to keep his sperm from meeting egg and vs versa....
I raised my out of wed lock babes on my own, by myself, went to college and worked a job and a half to provide them with all there needs and half of their wants...Never biotched about my choice, nor did I complain how tough it was to be a single parent; for me it just was, and I did what I had to do...
Can't say that for the baby daddies, and the 2nd one wanted marriage, and a child, and OMGOSH if I had a few idiotic brain cells it was to his statement of you want to marry me, why use BC, don't you want to have a baby with me??? He then married someone that was 39, that could care for him, and go out and want to beat a full term pregnant lady...
I have to really wonder how many sexual encounters actually include, I don't want to father a child, therefore you BETTER be doing everything you can to make sure that doesn't happen!!!! Think that just may end a few or more, casual sex encounters...
Unless you've walked the road of a single mother, I wouldn't suggest saying mean get the short end of the stick, because neither side is very good, and raising a child alone isn't the worlds most fab job...
In other words, NO I don't have a lot of pity for causal sex encounters that result in a pregnancy. I DO however hold more sympathy for the guy who is tricked into having a child, which does happen, and I am aware that women have been known to use this tactic to TRY and keep a man... Even my "idiot brain cells" finds that a repulsive tactic, and extremely shameful...
The bottom line here is this, we don't always live in a world where everything is able to be divided equally on the gender lines, and until man "evolves" into actually being able to get pregnant, this argument will be the same as it has been for eons. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/6/2009 7:11:58 AM |
Various traumatic abortion procedures notwithstanding. Spoken by someone who will NEVER be in the hot seat. Facing the decision to abort an unwanted child is not a walk in the park.
The law as it stands punishes males while holding female sexuality unaccountable. No need, mother nature takes care of holding women accountable.
Consent to sex does not, in fact, mean the preclusion of becoming a parent, it means you're willingly taking the risk of becoming a parent. It's your choice.
Imagine a world where children and their mothers were valued and cherished, where a pregnancy was joyful instead of shameful. I bet we wouldn't be pulling babies out of walmart toilets in that world. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/6/2009 1:37:06 PM |
I bet we wouldn't be pulling babies out of walmart toilets in that world.
Yeah, that or portable toilets... A young immigrant put her new born in a portable toilet over a Mo ago in Oregon State... She's being charged with murder, at least at the moment...
I agree completely that when to consenting adults consent to the act of intercourse, they are willing consenting to taking a risk of pregnancy.
To me there is no adult "victims" here when it is consensual sex, except for the unwanted pregnancy, or child that results... | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/6/2009 1:56:18 PM | There is a distinction between pre-conception choices and post-conception choices I want to make here. It is the responsibility of both parties to take precautions if they have sex. Men are not given a choice post-conception and are being forced into being fathers(financially speaking). The court will not force motherhood on a woman. Hence, she has the choices of adoption and abortion AFTER conception. She is then off scott-free(after the abortion or adoption) to resume her life. She consented to sex. She consent to the risks associated with the consent. She is not forced to deal with the consequences of that consent as a man is forced to.
I don't mean to suppose that either abortion or adoption are easy options. But they are post-conception unfairly available options to women solely. It is preferable to some people rather than having an unplanned critical life-changing event one may not be ready to willing to properly care for.
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/6/2009 6:12:47 PM | There is a distinction. Post conception a woman IS pregnant, a man is not. A woman's life IS altered and a woman must face hard, lifelong choices. If a man refuses responsibility the only thing he can be held accountable for is financial support. Anyone know a guy who works under the table to reduce his payment? I do.
So, I disagree with the statement that 'She is not forced to deal with the consequences of that consent as a man is forced to.' Of course she is, she must choose to carry or abort the baby. She must choose to raise or give up for adoption, the flesh of her flesh. It's hard not to bond a little after 40+ weeks.
And should she choose to raise the baby, it is highly unlikely she'll be living the life of luxury on child support. Only a portion of a payor's income is destined for child support but the custodial parent is expected to contribute ALL of their income for the benefit of said child.
And how hard must it be to pass the child to the reluctant father every other weekend. In my experience, there are men who were all for abortion but when faced with monthly payments, demand access or joint custody to get something for their money, or to punish the mother for defying them or, possibly? because they end up loving the little gaffer.
I appreciate that some men feel and share in the burden or joy that a pregnancy brings. I realize that some women can have an abortion and walk away with no regret. But I don't think that women as a gender are 'lucky' to have the last say about an unplanned pregnancy.
@lawgeek: could you (assuming you were medically capable) actually reach in and abort your own baby? Could you try to look at the situation from another point of view than cash out of pocket? | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/6/2009 6:47:27 PM | I don't think it happens often, but why wouldn't a father be awarded custody if the woman chose not to raise the child but instead to pay the father child support? Is there a law forbidding that or does it just never get discussed as a viable option?
I agree with the other posters that financial support is in no way comparable to raising a child. Unless the child is given up for adoption, the default should be that both parties pay to raise the child. I would also like to see a 50/50 default custody arrangement unless one party is a danger to the child. That would equal parity of the sexes and would ensure the child knows both parents.
Both sexes complain way too much about each other. We should come up with solutions and encourage them to happen rather than continue down this road of division. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/6/2009 10:55:10 PM | If a woman decides on adoption, the father MUST sign away his rights as well... There have been several note worthy cases where the father was not informed, and found out years later after the child was placed for adoption, and he still got custody of the child...
It may not happen often, but I am sure a lot more than we really hear about, in fact there are single fathers on here often complaining they can't seem to get dates because they have "a kid". Single mothers have bore that factor for so long it isn't even funny, we know that as younger women we can easily get passed by for someone that hasn't had children, married or not when baby came along...
I have to laugh when a man complains that a child was created, and he doesn't have completely equal say as to what happens... YES, it is sad when men are willing to raise a child, alone if need be, and the woman decides she can't, or won't go through the pregnancy.
There are plenty of inequalities for both genders in the world, this is just one of so very many. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/7/2009 3:22:03 AM | Nexthyme
By <div class="quote">If a woman decides on adoption, the father MUST sign away his rights as well... do you mean that both parents must consent if the adoption is to go forward? That would indicate that the woman, at least legally, does not hold the rights on this one.
Also, I believe in Canada the legal system sides in favour of shared custody but obviously for that to happen, the father has to ask for it. That's an improvement from 40 years ago, but even at that, I still think that unless there is a danger to the child the default, AT BIRTH, should be shared custody so the onus isn't on either parent to fight for that right and so the child starts life without being in the middle of a battle.
Abortion has to be the woman's right. It is our body. But, yes, it is sad when a man would want to raise the child and the woman isn't ready so she gets an abortion.
Yes, I've been told, too, that I'm less attractive as a mate because I have kids. Not all men want to raise another guy's kids, apparently. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/7/2009 12:10:35 PM | Taken from legal article written by Sherry F Colb. Should men have the right to a financial Abortion? It is that after a woman has a baby, in Michigan and elsewhere, she has the right to give up that baby for adoption. If she exercises that right, she cuts off her own financial responsibility to the child, along with other parental rights and responsibilities. A man, by contrast, may not relinquish his financial responsibility for an unwanted child unless the biological mother shares his wish to give up the child for adoption.
(In case people are curious) The unmarried father is case he wants to keep the child must go through certain hoops just as signing up with the putative registry.
It is not difficult to imagine that sex-role stereotypes played a role. Traditionally, in the United States, the law made three assumptions about parenthood: the mother's proper role is that of nurturer; the father's proper role is that of "breadwinner"; and every child, if at all possible, should be part of a nuclear family. Under this set of assumptions, a number of conclusions would seem to follow:
If a woman is unwilling to nurture (or "mother") her child, the law cannot force her to do so. In fact, a child in the custody of an uninterested mother is a child in danger of abuse or neglect. Therefore, if a woman gives birth to a child for whom she does not wish to care, the law would be doing the baby no favors by leaving him or her with the rejecting mother. Adoption would seem a mercy to both mother and baby.
A father who is unwilling to pay for his offspring can, however, safely be forced to pay nonetheless. When a woman gives birth to a child whom she does not want to raise, it may be an infrequent occurrence for a man to hope to step into the void and raise the child of his ex-girlfriend alone. When such a case arises, however, there is no good reason to relieve the mother of financial responsibility toward her biological offspring when the law does not do so for a similarly situated father. -___________________________________
Adoption allows the mother to terminate her obligations to an unwanted child but a man is not allowed to unilaterally terminate his obligations. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/7/2009 4:17:14 PM |
When a woman gives birth to a child whom she does not want to raise, it may be an infrequent occurrence for a man to hope to step into the void and raise the child of his ex-girlfriend alone. When such a case arises, however, there is no good reason to relieve the mother of financial responsibility toward her biological offspring when the law does not do so for a similarly situated father.
I 100% agree. Definitely in the best interest of the child.
Adoption allows the mother to terminate her obligations to an unwanted child but a man is not allowed to unilaterally terminate his obligations. With this I disagree. Adoption allows both the mother and father to terminate their obligations to an unwanted child. And, again, yes, both parents should be on the hook for the financial investment of child rearing if the child is not given up for adoption.
There is no argument you can use to convince me that because a woman chooses not to abort a baby that the man should get out of paying for the child. It is for the good of the child that both parents be contributing time and money. However, you are correct that the laws are outdated and should be changed to reflect the fact that both parents should nurture the children and both parents should contribute financially. From what i can tell, the movement has been underfoot for about 30 years and have come a long way | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/7/2009 7:00:10 PM |
If a woman decides on adoption, the father MUST sign away his rights as well... do you mean that both parents must consent if the adoption is to go forward? That would indicate that the woman, at least legally, does not hold the rights on this one.
When I was a single pregnant mum at 19, I had family pushing me to put my baby up for adoption. I was told I didn't have anything to offer her, and that she would be better off with a family...
I figured if I truly loved the unborn baby I was carrying, I would put her up for adoption; and through that process, the father had to sign his rights away as well...
Before I left the hospital, a close adult friend of mine told me "If I could walk out those hospital doors without looking back to do so, if not I should take my baby home.."
My daughter is a beautiful 25 yr old, that has a bachelors, and an AAB.
With my second daughter, because I was still brain washed I wasn't shyt with out a husband through my religious up bringing...
Neither dads stepped up to the plate...
My oldest daughter met her "sperm donor" Her words, when she was 17, because she wanted to know about her half siblings... At 23 he told her he didn't want to know her, because she was opinionated... Dang, I raised kids that could think for themselves, and if they didn't agree, that they could respectfully disagree... He doesn't like that ideal, and feels I failed as a parent...
IDK, I can give an ugly detail of what his other children that were born have done, but the fact is this. As a mum, that didn't have the dads around for the first two I did a good job...
My son that I had with my ex spouse is a happy kid, that has split time between me and his father, which works out for the most part (School work gets shuffled to where one parent doesn't know what is going on... ERRR usually his dad, cause he's to busy, but that is life.)
Every jurisdiction is different, and my ex took on raising his son for 5 yrs, because the mother sucked... He never asked her for child support which was HIS choice... His sons mum raised him from 15 to 18, and things went south for him from there, but sometimes a person has to save themselves from a bad marriage...
novascotialass, the reality, to parents or not, kids can end up in the middle, which is NEVER fair to the child...
I was in a two parent home, and the abuse I endured was so freaking extreme it was amazing to most I survived it... | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/7/2009 9:21:39 PM | nexthyme ,
Was there more to this sentence?
"With my second daughter, because I was still brain washed I wasn't shyt with out a husband through my religious up bringing..."
Also, were all of your children born out of wedlock accidental pregnancies that occurred while you were using birth control, or were they planned? | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/7/2009 9:53:25 PM |
"With my second daughter, because I was still brain washed I wasn't shyt with out a husband through my religious up bringing..."
Also, were all of your children born out of wedlock accidental pregnancies that occurred while you were using birth control, or were they planned?
I was making a point of expressing how I could be IGNORANT twice, of having had two children out of wedlock. The religion was repressive, punitive, and basically told us young women we didn't have sexual feelings until we were married. Further more we women weren't shyt if we weren't married, so I fell for the lets have a baby lets get married bs by my 2nd daughters father, I had bc, but he told me he wanted a baby and not to use it...
I can't say either were an accident, because I was taught if you used BC you were licensing yourself for sex, as a mixed young woman, with a horrific upbringing, I didn't know much of anything in the way of defending myself against young sexually aggressive men. That is NOT to say anything was rape, but I was lost as to what to do, and had no parent figure to turn to for answers, or support... Therefore the reality of becoming pregnant was not WISHED FOR, however I knew it was a good possibility
My third son was born after five years of marriage, and was planned. My ex's oldest son was born out of wedlock as well, guess that is why he didn't have a problem with dating someone that already had kids.
I want to be clear, I don't regret any of my kids, or the choice to keep my daughters that were born our of wedlock... HOWEVER I regret not really knowing better, therefore my daughters had to see a mom that worked a lot, and at night (graves), so as to be with them during the day. (I was an x ray tech, and got through school for that while pregnant and after my 2nd daughter was born My oldest was a baby when I went through cosmetology school...)
Perhaps I fit in the no abortion/no adoption, made my bed slept in it..
Either way, I know that my daughters dads didn't have to pay, nor were they involved with their lives. Choices they made, and my ex was dad to them (oldest was 8, and his and my 2nd daughter were 5), even though he wasn't the greatest, he wasn't the worst either, they still see him as dad...
How can someone be so stupid??? Hard life, with no love, and or care, extreme abuse, and strict religious up bringing create such stupidity... AND YES, I call it stupidity, because I feel that my daughters paid a price for my ignorance, even though they made sure not to get pregnant because of their experience. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/7/2009 10:17:33 PM | When an ideology is supported by a steady brainwashing campaing as to become the absolute truth to follow... is not so much about stupidity or ignorance, but about the inevitability to overcome the power of the manipulative propaganda for not knowing better.
Don't be so hard on yourself. After all, in an allegorical Friedan's quote, we've never been enemies, we just all have been victims of the political game. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 7/8/2009 12:19:46 AM |
I can't say either were an accident, because I was taught if you used BC you were licensing yourself for sex, as a mixed young woman, with a horrific upbringing, I didn't know much of anything in the way of defending myself against young sexually aggressive men. That is NOT to say anything was rape, but I was lost as to what to do, and had no parent figure to turn to for answers, or support... Therefore the reality of becoming pregnant was not WISHED FOR, however I knew it was a good possibility
I totally get what you are saying. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 2:23:26 AM |
Anyone who has sex without understanding it's consequences is...[not being very smart or responsible] I had to paraphrase....anyway..
Ahhhhh yes, the bitterment of men who feel they should be able to dictate that a woman gets an abortion, because he didn't want the pregnancy....
If a man takes an equal responsibility in the possible outcome of having sex, i.e., he makes sure either the woman is indeed on the pill or using adequate contraception or he makes sure he is using, and using correctly, a condom, then the likelihood of pregnancy is small: if both parties act intelligently and responsibly. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not typical or common to get pregnant if you are taking adequate precautions. Therefore, there is not need for a bitter man to want to dictate that a woman should have an abortion. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 10:04:22 AM |
I have to laugh when a man complains that a child was created, and he doesn't have completely equal say as to what happens... YES, it is sad when men are willing to raise a child, alone if need be, and the woman decides she can't, or won't go through the pregnancy.
There are plenty of inequalities for both genders in the world, this is just one of so very many.
I agree. But why do many women only seem to be okay with accepting these inequalities when they rule in their favor? For example, you don't really hear an argument like this when it comes to a woman not being able to get a certain type of job (usually physical) based on the natural inequality of males being bigger and stronger. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 10:33:24 AM | I admit to not reading the previous 5 pages ... but... "No abortion, No adoption" You've made your bed..." is just crazy.
Do we really want girls who DON'T want their babies being forced to keep them? My gosh, as if there are not enough abused children in this world! Many babies/kids are abused as it is by parents that supposedly want and "love" them - can you imagine the poor little things being at the hands of those who really don't want them at all? | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 10:46:38 AM | I agree. But why do many women only seem to be okay with accepting these inequalities when they rule in their favor? For example, you don't really hear an argument like this when it comes to a woman not being able to get a certain type of job (usually physical) based on the natural inequality of males being bigger and stronger. If you are talking about a woman being forced to go through with a pregnancy she doesn't want when abortion is legal and viable, then the answer is obvious. Why does what she want over rule what the man wants? Because she has to use her body to carry the child. It is not just an inconvenience. Pregnancy changes the body. Every time a woman carries a child, her body is affected, permanently. It is also extremely emotional. To carry a child to term and then just turn it over to someone, for most women is impossible. There may be some who are able to be surrogate mothers, but most can't. In any case, that would be a child not actually related to the woman, so maybe that changes things a lot. I think men don't understand this because they have never been a woman and carried a child. It is not just an inconvenience, and a woman should definitely have the right to decide if she doesn't want to do it. Pregnancy can also have possible catastrophic effect on a woman, even death. No one has the right to force someone to carry a child to term. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 12:35:46 PM | | hi... it was only a small bite from a delicious looking fruit but the consequences were great... nothing new under the sun... choices are everywhere yet not everyone acts on them in the same manner... just because the procedure was discovered and laws made it legal, not every woman chooses abortion ... again we are judged individually and not as a group, thank God.. the good news is that we can learn and grow from our mistakes and by not repeating them we can be forgiven... adoption is not murder yet the child never has a choice in either situation, we can all agree that force is hardly fair or just.....Divine Wisdom that taught marrying someone that you are matched with does not seem so old fashioned... maybe it was not intended to be viewed as forced doctrine but rather as a warning against indiscriminate sex and all of its consequences... blessings | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 1:59:15 PM | But why do many women only seem to be okay with accepting these inequalities when they rule in their favor?
This inequity is accepted because there is no solution that does not create more inequity.
In the future, when babies are developed in synthetic womb in a laboratory, I will be happy for you to have an equal right. Until then, you can not force another person to have an abortion or carry a baby for nine month. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 2:14:02 PM |
In the future, when babies are developed in synthetic womb in a laboratory, I will be happy for you to have an equal right. Until then, you can not force another person to have an abortion or carry a baby for nine month.
And when women become asexual and no longer need a male to reproduce, then they can completely cut a man out in a decision such as abortion or raising a child. | |
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granz
| Joined: 6/22/2009 Msg: 124 | |
| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 2:21:12 PM | | Although it doesn't seem entirely fair, what a woman does with a fetus she's carrying is entirely her prerogative. It is a part of her body. We can't overrule that. On the other hand, I do feel that -- should the father's say in the matter be disregarded by the mother -- he has the right to waive all responsibility for her and this child. | |
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| No abortion! No Adoption! Posted: 10/3/2009 2:21:57 PM |
And when women become asexual and no longer need a male to reproduce, then they can completely cut a man out in a decision such as abortion or raising a child.
No. A man getting me pregnant still should not give him equal right to my body. Knowing the inequity, it is your choice not to be involved. But until the future, you can not have equal rights in this area. | |
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