| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/2/2009 5:37:14 AM |
a 95% estate tax, so everyone starts out on more even footing in life and certain families can't hoard wealth for generation upon generation.
That is easily circumvented with the use of foundations and family trusts. It still wouldn't touch the Rockefellers or the Rothschilds, who basically run the world by virtue of their wealth. Family trusts & foundations would have to pass to the people's control if the estate tax is to have any real meaning. If we could do that though, we'd finally escape the feudal system that keeps us all in indebted servitude to a few wealthy families. Maybe democracy could even mean something, instead of being a puppet show for the peanut gallery. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/2/2009 12:21:39 PM |
who does the educating
well not some moron that only wants to twist things his way like we have so often in the past been left with.
[you so conviently in your criticism skipped over the first point ....
transparency is necessary ]
today we have the idea of wikipedia and it is working for education.
the next step is giving enough time and nourishment to the children and an incentive to use it.
[that's like a bonus for performance ... just like in business]
That movement has resulted in the killing of millions by the states that promised to serve them.
and your perfect republic ... hasn't spread mass death through pollution and war
.... like get a grip on reality. ..... all those lazy layabouts you talk about are a generalization from ignorance. Most people want to have meaningful work but greed of others so often stops them ... along with prejudice and nepatism.
oh and by the way.... this was just supposed to be a .... point out your system ...
not a .... your system sucks because of .....
please read the OP's requests about the question before posting.
So if a majority vote that enslaving of a minority or even worse is morally justified, then it's OK? This issue was not so simple for the US founding fathers and political expediency won the day. At what point does moral legislation blend church and state?
and so ... who is qualified to make the moral decisions..... some elite morons that wear the robes from some past ritual? .... or I suppose we should all tow the moral line you have decided on because you know best.
you have all the why not's but no answers and really have not followed the OP's request in any of your posts.
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/2/2009 1:24:04 PM | Through what color lenses do you find transparency? Where one sees good, another may see bad when both are looking at the same thing. All views should be taken into account and that is the failing of pure democracy. The minority point of view needs to be considered.
The question was what form of government was the best. My answer is still not a single form but a combinational form. The success of the US government was an example. Was it perfect, no. The compromise made during its founding regarding slavery later resulted in civil war. The success of the society has led to excesses. One could easily argue that was actually proof of the success of the government, not its failure. Socialism certainly has its environmental damage along with incredible carnage yet its populations were left with very little prosperity.
Who is to make moral decisions? In my opinion, that sould be between those most impacted by the choices. Should say involuntary sexual mutilation of girls be encouraged because of some religous "moral" teachings?
As for inherited wealth, its rare in modern western society when looking a few generations along. The exception is in monarchies. It was against an inbred and often considered nutcase monarch the US founding fathers rebelled. Do you think you can find the wealth and/or power of the US founding fathers among their descendants? | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/2/2009 1:57:19 PM |
Socialism certainly has its environmental damage along with incredible carnage yet its populations were left with very little prosperity.
Actually, the socialism of the Scandanavian countries (Norway in particular) and Venezuela looks pretty good. The former Yugoslavia (under Tito) was probably one of the best socialist regimes ever to exist. What a pity it had to be dismantled because Rothschild doesn't like to see countries setting highly "dangerous" good examples of socialism not dependent on his banking system.
Do you think you can find the wealth and/or power of the US founding fathers among their descendants?
Not so much the descendents of Jefferson, but most (if not all) US presidents trace their lineage back to the English Monarchs. What do you suppose the odds are of that happening by chance? The Rockefellers, schiffs, Loebs, Goldmans, et al, were all agents of The Rothschilds, who control the economies of the world through their banks. If you're looking for the wealth and power in the US, look at the banking families. They are the people who really run your country. Your government and elections are no more than a puppet show to keep the "useless eaters" entertained. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/2/2009 7:30:11 PM | | My ideal government would be none. I think all governments are evil by their existence alone. I don't believe in giving a monopoly of men any rules on telling us what to do. I truly believe that people are generally good & can handle their own lives without interference from people in positions of power who "know better". | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/3/2009 10:29:34 AM |
Actually, the socialism of the Scandanavian countries (Norway in particular) and Venezuela looks pretty good.
North sea natural gas has helped keep some from going broke but even that doesn't seem to be holding up.
Venezuela oil?
My ideal government would be none.
The government the governs the best, governs the least. Should there not at least be a mechanism to protect us or at least enable us to protect ourselves from threats both foreign and domestic? | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/3/2009 10:40:09 AM | Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all the other types. Every attempt to install a strong leader fails either during the first leaders lifetime or subsequently. Often it falls because of power struggles among would be sucessors. Sometimes people get sick of it. Sometimes, like soviet collectivism, its just too unwwieldy to work. Our democracy works well in most cases. The problem is that the people who have the most to gain/lose by keeping the institution of democracy free from clutter and clap trap have gotten a bit lazy. like the romans we have our bread and circuses (whether nfl football or similar spectacles or IPOD and televison) Lets face it without some sort of Gov. we are at the mercy of the powers that be economically. There is a reason that today you can go to four corner area in a big city and see four gas stations of competing brands with the same price, and its beacuse we the people have gotten lazy and elect people based not on their love of democracy and the problems it has but we elect them on wedge issues like abortion and gun control that have little if anything to do with the real issues of the body politic. if we want democracy to work we have to work. (that said i am just as guilty as most folks- i do tech government so i put my two cents worth in when i can but its hard as education is the most under control and our of whack part of the gov today) | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/3/2009 11:46:28 AM |
Lets face it without some sort of Gov. we are at the mercy of the powers that be economically.
Correction: Your government represents the powers that be (economically) and works for them, not you.
That obviously wasn't the original intent of your government, but it IS the end result of the PTB chipping away at the loopholes until they secured power. You now live under their rule. The best way to see that is to really read and deconstruct your constitution; then look at all the legislation that flies in the face of the highest law in your land. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/3/2009 12:13:02 PM |
Through what color lenses do you find transparency?
so you don't understand that transparency means you can see what is being done ... it has nothing to do with your opinion of good or bad ... is is just the facts ... open to people ... not hidden behind closed doors.
that is what education is supposed to be ... not your one sided opinions.
Who is to make moral decisions? In my opinion, that sould be between those most impacted by the choices. Should say involuntary sexual mutilation of girls be encouraged because of some religous "moral" teachings?
now you are appealing to our sympathy for bad moral judgments ... and claiming it backs your argument ... well it does not.
all moral decisions affect everyone .... saying .. most affected is a value judgment in itself and leaves everyone arguing who fits into most ... so most likely nothing would get done. .... great solution that is.
by your argument .... since children are most impacted by child pornography ...
then only children should vote on those moral laws.
... or .... since criminals are most impacted by penalties for crime ... then they should be the ones to vote on those moral punishments.
... or ... going to your other favorite.... the lazy layabouts ... well then they should be the only ones to vote on the moral rights to welfare and the homeless to vote on free accomodations.
[I say that only the most affected idea is just another dumb idea used to smokescreen greed and self interest]
so ... since everyone is affected... everyone should be able to vote on them.
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/3/2009 2:16:21 PM |
The government the governs the best, governs the least. Should there not at least be a mechanism to protect us or at least enable us to protect ourselves from threats both foreign and domestic?
Now you're speaking my language, though I would say that domestic threats could be dealt with at the community level. Internationally, even that amount of government could be done away with when all the nations dissolve into a brotherhood of Man. What we'd be left with is self-governing individuals all over the world with no national governments to tell them how to live. (Yeah, yeah...I know...What about trade, etc....We can worry about creating global administrative bodies for trade & cooperation later. First we have to abolish the oppression of the individual by the false authority of illegitimate and crooked government.) | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/3/2009 2:33:14 PM |
transparency means you can see what is being done
I'm pretty good at slight of hand. There is nothing more hidden than that which is hidden in plain sight. When people think they are being informed, they tend to become complacent.
all moral decisions affect everyone
There are a great many things I find morally wrong for myself but clearly there are those that find them acceptable. What I would find most immoral is for one person to impose their values on another.
since criminals are most impacted by penalties for crime ... then they should be the ones to vote on those moral punishments.
In some countries, it is acceptable to stone to death women found behaving "morally" wrong such as expressing a desire to choose their own husband. It's backed by religious leaders etc. In effect, the women are "criminals".
the lazy layabouts ... well then they should be the only ones to vote on the moral rights to welfare and the homeless to vote on free accomodations.
One should not confuse welfare and homeless nor should those paying taxes be ignored. The statistics on welfare are pretty good proof that if you pay people to be poor, there are plenty of people to take the job. Add to that, a system that has the effect of paying state supported people to have babies, again, the result is predictable. What is "transparent" is the sight of some person pleading for help being held up as an example for a politician to ask for higher taxes to give them the support they "need" for all the babies they are trying to feed. Some would say the birth control they should have practiced is immoral. The homeless are typically those who are not the professional welfare recipients but people not served by the massive welfare bureaucracies. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/4/2009 1:27:48 AM | | Most of the people who have ever existed have lived under a state of fear from their leaders. Democracy isnt perfect, but be thankful for it. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/4/2009 7:49:12 AM | No, Democracy has never worked. They go through a specific life cycle, known for thousands of years. Plato first alluded to it in "The Republic". It was further set in stone by Alexander Fraiser Tytler in the 1700s:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty
from liberty to abundance
from abundance to selfishness
from selfishness to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependency
from dependency back to bondage. "
-- Alexander Fraser Tytler (1742-1813) | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/4/2009 7:52:42 AM | Maybe it's high time to chuck democracy and all the other failures we call "forms of government" out the window and create a new paradigm for peaceful coexistence and prosperity.
If we can implement a policy of free beer for everyone, it would go a long way in working toward such a goal.  | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 9:19:24 AM |
There is nothing more hidden than that which is hidden in plain sight
pure rhetoric .... using cleche to avoid the real point and making no actual positive alternate suggestion.
all of your arguments have been negative to anyone else's ideas and therefor essentially against the OP's request.
What I would find most immoral is for one person to impose their values on another
don't you realize you already live in that situation.
and I never said one person .... that was the point
... not to be one person's moral ideals ... i.e. yours.
in some countries, it is acceptable to stone to death women
don't you understand this has nothing to do with the previous idea and is only you trying to back your argument with ugly ideas from inappropriate examples.
and those countries do not follow the system I was suggesting. .... your example is pure garbage and does nothing for this discussion.
One should not confuse welfare and homeless nor should those paying taxes be ignored
and I don't .... and neither does my proposed ideas ...
it was again .... a statement showing how rediculous your previous posting attack of my idea was. Then using your crazy logic of " the most impacted " and showing where it would lead. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 11:04:03 AM | I agree with DaTree and ol'Dukky.
The point is to be vigilant of the excesses of any single "form" of government no matter how inviting those excesses may be. Nothing turns a population against each other like collective blame. If one group receives more largess of government over another then there is resentment. It may appeal to us to help the indigent but such help should be encouraged by the individual, not compelled by some all powerful government, democratic or whatever. The systems of government create "professional" dependents on government largess. That can range from massive companies to individual welfare recipients. The larger the government, the smaller the individual.
Individuals should be ware of every source of information they have access to. The soviet union's Pravda (truth) got only slightly more information from government sources than our free press. Both well over 90%. The earlier concept of "transparency" can be used to justify some government power grab by convincing the public of a "need" that may not really exist. On the political side, as an example, an internet site was created to check political facts. Virtually all the press relied on it during the campaign yet none of the press followed the funding of the site. In doing so, one might think it was balanced by its own claims of members in its opposition party but its funding was the very same source that funded Obama's career and political launch and is tied to socialist political movements. The "transparency" one thinks they see may actually be manipulation and you can easily be its pawn if you don't keep your mind open and active.
Individual freedom is not free but the effort it requires is not limited to some battle field or a trip to the voting booth. It requires actual thinking. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 11:42:29 AM | The best form of government doesn't exist yet.
How can there be a best form of government when human potential has not been fully realized by the majority of people on earth?.
The evolution of consciousness is still in the early stages of development.
A impulsive, argumentative & violent child doesn't have the ability to create "the best form government".
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 12:08:53 PM | transparency is a growing thing
like wikipedia.... it evolves
that is the beauty of it
keep an open mind .... and post your results.
that is my transparency.
check and double check .... and then check it again.
you still have not proven we don't need transparency.
that we don't need education
and that we don't need to vote on moral issues.
you have no argument against what I first posted .
the idea still stands. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 1:39:38 PM | | THATS THE PROBLEM! We the people have gotten lazy. The gov was never intended for full time, life long pols. It was intended to be manned by public servants who would serve a term or two and then leave. That is why Washington choose to leave office (that and he valued his privacy more than power) but if we had term limits and real serious ability to stop the influence of big bus. we could have a real democracy. however i am very pessimistic about it ever happening. both parties have sold out entirely to the money men, and lets face it corperate structure itself, with its deliberate distance between those who profit and those who consume and toil, has a big part in this. truthfully i am not at all sure if we can function without the coperate business form in this day and age but if we could we should. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 1:44:45 PM | | The language of Republicans and the language of their predecessors, the Whigs. Alexander Hamilton and his lot had the idea about government governing least because they did not want interference with property. They also wanted to restrict who could vote (based on property ownership and religious affiliation among other things) the job of the gov. is to do for the body politic what no individual member can do themselves. Without government "interference" with laws like the minimum wage law, desgeregation, various voting rights acts, clean air and water laws, clean food and drug laws and laws that protect children we would be in the same state as we were in the 16th centruy. The government can become overbearing and the existence of agencies with too many people and too much power needs to be addressed. but dont kid yourself if we have no oversite things would quickly go to hell in an hand basket. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 1:57:22 PM |
dont kid yourself if we have no oversite things would quickly go to hell in an hand basket.
Al the more reason that we should be doing our due diligence and overseeing things. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/8/2009 8:34:13 AM |
The best form of government doesn't exist yet.
How can there be a best form of government when human potential has not been fully realized by the majority of people on earth?.
The evolution of consciousness is still in the early stages of development.
A impulsive, argumentative & violent child doesn't have the ability to create "the best form government".
You got THAT right. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:43:56 AM | For a democracy to work, it's people must be grounded in religious morality, otherwise, it will inevitably devolve into mob rule.
A democracy was put in place in Gaza, but an amoral public decided to elect tyrants and terrorists into power.
Religious morality is key, because faith in God assures that nobody is above the universal spiritual principles that God put in place. As our declaration of Independence says:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/11/2009 1:01:17 PM |
For a democracy to work, it's people must be grounded in religious morality, otherwise, it will inevitably devolve into mob rule.
A democracy was put in place in Gaza, but an amoral public decided to elect tyrants and terrorists into power.
Religious morality is key, because faith in God assures that nobody is above the universal spiritual principles that God put in place.
Please explain to me the following:
- Why the strongest democracies (the western developed countries) have lower proprotions of believers than do non-democratic countries (and it's been dropping steadilly for the last 100 years).
- Why the strongest democracies also have the most freedom to do very NON-religiously moral things (homosexuality, casual sexual relations, among other things) that would get you shot, hung, thrown in jail or tarred and feathered in many non-democratic states. | |
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| Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/12/2009 10:06:40 AM |
about 'endowed by their creator' to mean what it's supposed to mean
you couldn't be further from the truth ... in the 18th century ... there was no darwinism .... everyone believed in some god like creator and that is what they meant.
live with it. | |
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