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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 6:39:06 AM |
And the eternal question is,how do you tell a 'real' circle from a man made one?
Answer is, in 30+ years of research, no one as yet has managed to come up with a definative litmus test.
There are many characteristics of genuine circles, which I have stated, but the simplest answer is that they can not be reproduced, or hoaxed.
Crops are bent at the node due to phototropism, particularly in young crop. Barley 'fluffs up' again very quickly after being flattened.
Canola doesnt always snap when bent. thats a myth that has been disproved. Its subject to phototropism just like any other plant, and there are pictures to show that known commisioned formations have bent canola or node bending in them.
It is true that crops naturally have bent nodes in them, however they don't naturally bend in elaborate formations. Canola breaks or kinks when you bend it. I walk in canola fields quite often.
Commisioned circles show the same interweaving, nests, swirls and patterns as circles of unknown origin.
Many genuine circles have the stems bent at the node and are interwoven one stem at a time. Even if someone discovered a way to bend the stems with some sort of microwave ray gun, It would take months to do this.
All the circlemakers who claim to be making the circles have to do is make one. Simple.
Why do they take the credit for it if they refuse or are unable to reproduce one. Until someone can actually reproduce one, they are unexplained. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:20:26 AM |
And the eternal question is,how do you tell a 'real' circle from a man made one?
Simple. There are no "real" circles. Manmade ones are the only ones that exist. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 10:03:40 AM | | The problem mainstream science has is that it fails utterly to deal with things that are unexplained, yet, has no problem declaring facts upon which the evidence gathered is theoretical evidence, in other words, it just does not exist !!. Some crop formations beggar belief in complexity, and they do suddenly appear, how and why are unanswered, no one who says they are hoax can reproduce them, why not ? | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 10:40:20 AM | It is not merely that they CAN be hoaxed, it is that they always ARE. I have seen videos showing precisely how it is done.
The problem with antiscience is that it makes claims without proof and then expects everyone to believe them. Some things, however, are simply false and therefore do not MERIT further investigation.
No one has refused to reproduce a "real" crop circle, nor are they unable to do so. Quite the contrary, they have been successfully reproduced on several occasions .
Unfortunately, those who prefer to believe bullshit remain willfuly unconvinced. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 12:05:01 PM | Im sorry intoart but your second paragraph could equaly apply to proscience if there is such a thing, I like science but I want facts and fair play, for example :
the fossil record shows without exception ' each to thier kind ', nothing else is there, but evolutionists will not say what's there, they say, it can't be like that, there must be some missing links, we'll paint them in for now and declare our theory as fact. So much for the scientific method !, it's a complete farce. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 2:48:03 PM |
There are many characteristics of genuine circles, which I have stated, but the simplest answer is that they can not be reproduced, or hoaxed.
With respect, you havent stated any. So far what you have stated are characteristics that can be applied to 'rea;' as well as man made circles.
My point still stands, despite many different theories, no one yet has managed to makea definable litmus test to tell genuine from hoax. if they had, the crop circle community would have been buzzing.
It is true that crops naturally have bent nodes in them, however they don't naturally bend in elaborate formations. Canola breaks or kinks when you bend it. I walk in canola fields quite often.
Of course they naturally bend in natural formations, plants will bend whatever way they can to get to the light. Canols does not always break, particularly when its laid down with layers of young canola on the stop, as happens with stomping. It is also dependant on the type and strain of canola, as well as the age.
Many genuine circles have the stems bent at the node and are interwoven one stem at a time. Even if someone discovered a way to bend the stems with some sort of microwave ray gun, It would take months to do this.
Which circle are you refering to?? If you could give me a location and year that would be great as I can search PV database. You cannot state for certain that any circle displaying those qualities is a genuine circle, because you cannot tell it apart from a man made one based on that evidence.
All the circlemakers who claim to be making the circles have to do is make one. Simple.
Why do they take the credit for it if they refuse or are unable to reproduce one. Until someone can actually reproduce one, they are unexplained.
They do make them. most years in terms of commisioned formations as well as the authorless ones.
They need to remain authorless to preserve the mystery, crop circles bring pleasure to so many people who would not derive the same pleasure if they knew of their origin. They are also a statementof art,if you want to get your art published to be admired, there is no point claiming the authorship of it, known man made circles do not get the coverage. Crop circling is a very lucrative business for lots of people, it is in no ones interest for that business to wane. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 2:55:47 PM |
If you read the peer reviewed published paper you would know that the Semi-molten meteoric iron found at the crop circle cannot be reproduced by some fool throwing some Iron powder around.
http://www.bltresearch.com/published/semi-molten.php
Again, Rhino. Do some research before you speak, or write.
I am afraid my friend, that Levengoods research has been disregarded, due to the dubious way he collects samples and conducts research. Its sad because it was the one hope there was in terms of seeing any interesting anomalies. But BLT isnt taken with any real seriousness except by those who wish to profit from them.
And before you tell me to research, I do, and I have and I am  | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 4:34:25 PM |
If you read the peer reviewed published paper you would know that the Semi-molten meteoric iron found at the crop circle cannot be reproduced by some fool throwing some Iron powder around.
http://www.bltresearch.com/published/semi-molten.php
Again, Rhino. Do some research before you speak, or write.
Willow, take a look in the mirror. You aren't even keeping up with your own conspiracy theorist buddies... They dropped the "meteoric iron" indicator like a hot potato after this paper was written (available RIGHT THERE on the BLT Research site... WHO isn't doing their research?): http://www.xstreamscience.org/H_Glaze/h_glaze_0.html
And don't tell me to shut up, unless you suddenly became a mod while I wasn't looking.
(I have more knowledge of chemistry, metallurgy, and plant physiology than you will ever have. I used to teach chemistry for crying out loud, and you don't even show any sign of understanding what it means when someone says, "fine mesh reduced iron powder." Here's a hint: It doesn't mean ground up re-bar.)
Also, FatedStar, ^ argument from incredulity is one of the weakest imaginable fallacies to cling to. Let me know how that works out for you. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 7:13:23 PM | | oddly enough, it is the aliens that have the gravest issues with their being here and leaving signs. Once we and they can get past that, perhaps the"truth" shall prevail. Alien logic is so .....alien. I appreiate the earthlings. Rush, Beck,and the other aliens need to just go home to save this planet. They are not from around these parts....s | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:39:34 PM |
Willow, take a look in the mirror. You aren't even keeping up with your own conspiracy theorist buddies... They dropped the "meteoric iron" indicator like a hot potato after this paper was written
For one thing, the Meteoric Iron was found in only one formation appearing shortly after the intense Perseid meteor shower in August. 1993.
From the paper"Out of a four year investigation of plant tissues taken from over eighty crop formations. located within five countries, we report data from a single sample set "
For another thing. The Iron was imbedded in the plants in a semi molten state. So it seems unlikely to me someone would have carried molten Iron particles to a crop circle site.
This was never claimed as typical of crop circles. Only one, however As soon as the paper was written every fool with a stick was throwing iron filings on the ground after stomping down some crops, because they never read the paper.
And don't tell me to shut up, unless you suddenly became a mod while I wasn't looking.
I never told you to shut up. However I am telling you to lighten up. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/2/2009 10:13:00 PM |
Yep, intoart, I might as well accept science is right, even the big bang theory, its right, the entire universe could at one time fit inside a matchbox, spot on, I dont know how I missed that one, its right.
Ah yes, I thought you seemed familiar. The "Universe in a matchbox" idea was a dead giveaway.
You can believe in planets mysteriously "growing" for no real explainable reason. You can believe that, by some magical force or ET whim, crops suddenly will form mysterious shapes. But the idea that the universe is expanding and has since a moment of sudden inflation 13.7 billion years ago seems incredulous to you?
Awfully picky in our incredulity, aren't we. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 1:47:27 AM | | If no one can explain how a magician did a trick, does this automatically mean it was not a trick, but rather it was real, supernatural magic instead? | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 6:25:04 AM |
If no one can explain how a magician did a trick, does this automatically mean it was not a trick, but rather it was real, supernatural magic instead?
For some on these forums, it seems the answer is yes. That is exactly what it means. | |
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dlros
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Joined: 10/14/2008
Msg: 91 | |
| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 6:33:40 AM | Boy, I LOVE the forums...
Where else can such a heated discussion develop over a subject that could not possibly affect our lives in any way! :)
So let's all calm down, there's no need for personal reproach- this is just supposed to be fun.
Now to be fair to "wayward" I took the time to research the links he included. It seemed pretty thorough, but I know that isn't enough so I did a good amount of searching. I found many sites that supported it, and many more that disputed it's validity. So I figured ok, I'll just assume it's valid and try to find something supporting. And as he said, it's the only time the anomaly has been observed. Well, if that meteor shower was the only time this phenomenon was produced, how can it be considered as evidence as all? It can't, not in mainstream (real) science. If we do start accepting that kind of evidence, we may as well just all put on Shaman outfits and start doing rain dances, because we would have an equal chance of explaining the universe using that method.
Look, you can' t knock mainstream scientists as a closed-minded bunch of idiots. Most of these men and women would do anything to find some kind of break-through discovery about crop circles, aliens, or anything else. But they can't, because it's just not there; unless you believe in pseudoscience. And that's not science.
A case:
Bob has a young, healthy dog, his name is Spot.
Jane lives next door.
One day, Jane is standing in her front yard. Spot comes running up and bites Jane.
The next morning Bob awakes to find Spot has died.
The ASPCA comes to pick up Spot's body, and does an autopsy.
They are unable to determine the cause of death. What caused Spot's death?
The pseudoscience answer:
Since Spot was young and healthy and there was no sign of foul play, he must have been killed by aliens (for experimentation or because they don't like dogs), killed by God (as a punishment for biting Jane), killed by a witch 's spell(to sacrifice him to Satan), or having wandered too close to the Bermuda Triangle, electromagnetic forces sucked the life-force out of him.
The science answer:
Since Spot was young and healthy and there was no sign of foul play, we are unable to determine the cause of death. Therefore the most likely answer is that Spot died of natural causes which leave no signs of a cause (of which there are many), or that our method of analysis is not capable of determining that cause. The possibility of Spot being killed by ET, God, Witches, or Triangles may be discounted due to the fact that no reliable data would support such an assertion beyond simple speculation.
Now, you tell me; which is the more reliable answer? | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 6:43:05 AM | The biggest attempt to hoax a crop circle was done by a California TV company in New Zealand. They claimed to make a formation comparable to some of the genuine circles. The formation consisted of 100 flattened circles with a total diameter of 300 ft. It was supposedly done at dark in 4 hours, however they had 2 forty ton cranes to lift the lighting so it could be filmed. When the formation was complete the farmer quickly harvested the field before anyone could examine it. The reason they chose New Zealand was because of its remoteness, and lack of crop circle investigators.
http://www.cropcirclesecrets.org/crophoax_debrief.html
There has never been a crop circle hoax that has been investigated by investigators. Never.
There has never been a crop circle produced by hoaxers that has the characteristics of genuine circles. Stems bent without damage or kinking, Interwoven stems sometimes in opposing directions of up to 5 layers thick which can only be made if the stems were layed down one at a time in different directions simultaneously.
At times the formations become so thin and precise that a human can not walk on the line. At other times the definition between circles becomes as thin as one stem. Hoaxers can not do this.
In 1996, a 115-metre-wide spiral of 151 circles appeared in broad daylight in full view of a busy road, just opposite Stonehenge, within a 15-minute time-window (according to testimony from pilots, a farmer, a security guard, and motorists calling the police). A professional surveying engineer said it would take him about two full days to lay out the design.
If the circles are done by hoaxers as they claim, then why is it that to date no hoaxer has been able to reproduce them, even though there have been many failed attempts by different media companies to reproduce them.
Here is a site showing some pictures of different formations, many with crops layed down in different directions. The second one from the top shows a hoaxed one. See the difference.
http://in-division-and-duality.blogspot.com/2009/05/crop-circles-herstory.html
Until someone can explain how they are made, they remain unexplained. End of story. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 6:49:06 AM |
The pseudoscience answer:
The science answer:
My claim is that because many crop circles can not be reproduced, they are unexplained.
Other people claim that they are done by hoaxers even though no one has been able to reproduce them, or explain how they were made.
Now which is the science answer and which is the pseudoscience answer? | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:10:05 AM | And this is where we run into problems...
There has never been a crop circle hoax that has been investigated by investigators. Never.
What does this really mean? Obviously, one of the links you provided show a couple of failed attempts so hoax circles have been investigated. People have come forward to say they have created circles. There's an entire group of artists (for which a link has been provided) who have claimed authorship.
In 1996, a 115-metre-wide spiral of 151 circles appeared in broad daylight in full view of a busy road, just opposite Stonehenge, within a 15-minute time-window (according to testimony from pilots, a farmer, a security guard, and motorists calling the police). A professional surveying engineer said it would take him about two full days to lay out the design.
Meaning...? We don't have the particulars of this one so we can't assume anything about it.
At times the formations become so thin and precise that a human can not walk on the line. At other times the definition between circles becomes as thin as one stem. Hoaxers can not do this.
That's an assumption, not a statement of fact. Humans are capable of incredible precision. Simply saying it doesn't make it so.
Until someone can explain how they are made, they remain unexplained. End of story.
Well, they have been explained. You just don't accept the explanation. Totally different. One thing I've found amazing in these threads is that, when people are "true believers," no amount of alternative explanation is sufficient. It is one thing and one thing only. | |
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dlros
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Joined: 10/14/2008
Msg: 95 | |
| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:19:15 AM | Point well taken. If what you are saying is true I will respect the assertion that one or more crop circles are unexplained. As long as you leave it at that. I think the problem most people have with the issue is when proponents attempt to explain it- that's when it sinks into pseudoscience.
But it's still not science. The mistake people make about science is that they define it much like religion; as a belief system or set of unmovable rules. It's not. Science is a PROCESS, and the rules apply to the PROCESS, not the RESULTS. Results change and evolve frequently, but the process never changes; which is the reason for the incredibly reliable results that are gleaned by modern scientific method.
So "wayward..." I think we are really drilling down to the crux of the argument here:
Would I be correct in assuming what you are saying is that you feel the scientific community has not sufficiently studied the phenomenon to reliably conclude that all crop circles are hoaxes? | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:28:16 AM |
And as he said, it's the only time the anomaly has been observed. Well, if that meteor shower was the only time this phenomenon was produced, how can it be considered as evidence as all? It can't, not in mainstream (real) science.
I was responding to Rhino's statement:
So, what happens when they ARE explained, like the one with the "meteoric iron" that just happened to be slightly uncommon, but easily obtained, fine-mesh reduced iron powder? IIRC, it was THE benchmark for a "real circle" for quite a while. Once it was explained, the definition of a "real circle" just "moved."
Sorry Rhino, I don't mean to razz you. I actually have a lot of respect for you. You are skeptical but usually not anal about it. Thats a good thing. | |
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dlros
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Joined: 10/14/2008
Msg: 98 | |
| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:33:27 AM |
Well, they have been explained. You just don't accept the explanation. Totally different. One thing I've found amazing in these threads is that, when people are "true believers," no amount of alternative explanation is sufficient. It is one thing and one thing only.
I could not agree more. This is the most fascinating aspect of this whole thing. I love the fact that it's so selective. For instance have been looking at pyramids for thousands of years, and we still don't know how it was done. Yet people are fairly satisfied with that fact, or accept one of the various theories out there.
But when it comes to certain issues, like alien life, crop circles, paranormal and religion, otherwise brilliant people suddenly lose their minds- very strange. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:56:46 AM | "Suddenly, I heard a noise. It seemed as if something pushed down the wheat. That night the air was completely still. I looked around. The moon had just appeared, shining brightly. In front of my eyes I could see a great imprint taking shape. The wheat was forced down in a clockwise direction." -Bryce Bond and Arthur Shuttlewood, first modern crop circles witnesses, Warminster, night of August 12, 1972
http://www.stonehenge-avebury.net/scienceofcropcircles.htm
An eye-witness case from South Wales was brought to the attention of researchers in 1991 following a letter to the Sunday Mirror. This was on farmland at Cilycwm, 6 km from Llandovery, Dyfed.
Mr William Cyril Williams wrote: "With reference to the corn circles mystery I actually witnessed one being made. I was standing in a cornfield one morning and saw a whirlwind touching the ground and forming a circle in the corn. It was just the strength of the wind in the whirlwind that formed the circle".
The event happened in the late 1940’s when he worked on his father’s farm, Penfedw Farm at Cilycwm. He was then in his twenties. The area is surrounded by hills on all sides, and circles had been seen there "frequently".
On this occasion, a weekday in August, at about 10.30 to 11 in the morning [or circa 0930-10 GMT] Mr Williams had gone into the wheat field on harvesting day in advance of the cutting and binding machinery, and was crossing the middle of the field when he heard the buzzing noise of a whirlwind starting up only a few metres away.
He then saw a spinning mass of air with dust in it, and, as he watched, in a matter of "only a couple of seconds or so the wheat fell down producing a sharp-edged circle 3 to 4 metres in diameter".
It looked just like the other crop circles he had seen before, except that this one was completely flat-bottomed — whereas some of the earlier ones had stalks standing at their centres like a conical pyramid. The vortex then died out rapidly, but during its brief lifetime (under 4 or 5 seconds) it remained at the same place.
http://www.rense.com/general17/talbot.htm
Then, at about 3:15 am, a brilliant, intense white column, or tube, of light--about 8 inch to 1 foot in diameter from my vantage point--flashed down from the sky to the ground, illuminating my bedroom and the sky as brilliantly as if from helicopter searchlights. My room was so bright I can't, in retrospect, understand how I could so very clearly see the "tube" of light be a slight bluish tinge along the sides of the tube. Then this tube of light disappeared and both my room and the outside went dark. While the tube of light was there it was so bright I couldn't see exactly where it was touching down and wasn't sure how close it was.
Approximately one second of total darkness elapsed and then a second tube of the same brilliant white light, slightly edged in a bluish tint, appeared slightly to the left of where the first tube had been. Again the room and the outside lit up spectacularly, somehow leaving the intense tube of light clearly visible for about one second. Then, after another second's darkness the third and final tube decended to the ground. There was no sound at any time druing the light incident (the neighbor's cattle were now quiet), nor did I smell anything out of the ordinary at all. There was also no physical sensation of exposure to increased electromagnetic energy (such as the tingling I had experienced a few years prior in this same house during an earlier encounter). The entire light display took 5-6 seconds; if the bawling cattle are considered to be part of this situation the total time would be about 10 minutes.
http://www.cropcircleanswers.com/cca-sightings/marinelightwheels.htm
Then there is the marine lightwheels phenomenon. | |
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| Crop Circles, what is behind this mystery ?
Posted: 7/3/2009 8:23:44 AM | | Earthpuppy. I'd say that you were a man of Earth in your outlook. In keeping with that, when I read your messages, I feel like a child :). They are good in my opinion. | |
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