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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:09:47 AM | bird brains are pretty small... thimble sized would be considered large...
alas..too big a brain and they would have trouble flying .... ar$e up with feathers is not a good look ....
not a lot of "spare" brain there to use for other "intelligent" persuits... as in big headed mammals' cases,like classifying bird species photos in glossy colour printed books.... as some humans do...
flipping pages with wings would be hard... so I don't think birds would have invented books... | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:29:57 AM |
True she did not actually say "Fcuk Hilly, get your fat arse off the couch, theres a huge python killing the kids",
Although totally irrelevant hilly's post triggered a thought
Personally I think that people who assume they are far smarter and more important then animals simply because they are human, are really just showing what tools they are.
The human ability to create and use "tools" is the defining point of humanity. I do not mean simple physical tools, but tools as a meta-concept. (phew, that was a big word at this hour of the night). Logic and reason are tools. Music and art are tools for emotional expression. Language itself, both written and spoken, is one of the most basic and powerful of human tools. So perhaps the real superiority of humanity lies in the ability to not only create and use tools but to integrate them into larger systems and improve upon them. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:43:36 AM |
bird brains are pretty small...
Actually, according to Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avian_IQ
Anatomically, birds have a relatively large brain compared to head size.
I am the Queen of Wikipedia tonight... so here's a little tidbit about Alex the Parrot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot)
Poly wanna copy/paste? Polly wanna copy/paste.
Squawk!  < I know, I'm a penguin... so sue me. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:44:51 AM | But animals do use tools if we care to just look past our dinner plates a little.
Birds have been known to use rocks to crack open nuts and seeds. Some have been observed to use a flat rock to rest a nut upon while bashing it with a smaller pebble. Chimps use sticks to get deep into termite mounds, they strip them of leaves first as they know that a leafy twig wont fit down the hole...are these not examples of "dumb" animals having the capability to use tools.
I find it constantly surprising that people believe we are the only animals that use language. Other species can be taught to understand a certain amount of our language but we can not understand theirs...infact we can often not even acknowledge they have one, when its blatently obvious that animals communicate between themselves and even between species.
Makes you wonder who are the dumb ones really...... ignorance is bliss I guess. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 4:58:55 AM | birds with tools?... like femmechanics?.
wielding the pink sidchrome set... smear'o grease on the cheek..... corrrrr...
that kind of nut cracking bird..?...
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:02:50 AM | I just found out that Alex is an ex Parrot.
Born: 1976
Died: September 6, 2007
Brandeis University
Waltham, Massachusetts, U.S.
Cause of death: Sudden death secondary to atherosclerosis
Known for: Intelligent use of language
He's not pining, he's passed on. This parrot is no more. He has ceased to be, He's expired and gone to meet his maker. He's a stiff, bereft of life, He rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed him to the perch he'd be pushing up the daisies. His metabolic processes are now history. He's off the twig. He's kicked the bucket. He's shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile. THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
RIP Alex. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:09:29 AM |
Personally I think that people who assume they are far smarter and more important then animals simply because they are human, are really just showing what tools they are.
I couldn’t agree more. We came home from camping one particularly warm weekend to discover that child ‘A’ had forgotten to take the rubbish out, this was made apparent by the “baby” flies that were dropping out of the kitchen cupboard and wriggling their way across the floor. Being a being of superior intellect…and also a squeamish, lazy **stard, I figured I’d kill 2 birds with one stone by bringing a couple of chooks in to clean up the mess and have a treat of juicy maggots. After making sure they knew what their task was, I left them to it. I came back ten minutes later to find that they’d left the maggots, in favour of the cats food, torn open the rubbish bag, and sh!t all over the floor…Tool? I’m not even a sharp one. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:20:25 AM | Alex is dead eh, RIP!
Reminds me of a quote....
'Was Uncle Oscar's death very untimely, you ask? Well, it was near lunch!'
Quail anyone? | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:20:32 AM |
I find it constantly surprising that people believe we are the only animals that use language.
I totally agree and have witnessed this language, especially between dolphins , although they are mammals so I don't know if they count. But I can't say I have ever seen or heard of an animal writing to express themselves ....
Other species can be taught to understand a certain amount of our language but we can not understand theirs
Doctor Doolittle could 
Seriously though, can we not understand animal language or have we just not spent enough time trying to understand it and/or studying it? | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 5:31:19 AM |
The sad thing is that many people these days are so isolated from the notion of killing for food, someone else does the dirty work and sticks it in a supermarket.
Excellent point. I think a trip to a couple of farms should be a mandatory part of the school curriculum. My kids pre-school years always included a trip to ‘Farmer Browns’ farm, sure it was a hobby farm but, they got to see and enjoy a little bit of farm life. I remember one year one of the goats was birthing when we got there, what a wonderful experience for the kids...and the adults, goats don’t seem to have half the problems giving birth that we humans do.
Whilst a trip to a farm like this is great for kids of this age I think, as they get older and more capable of dealing with some of the harsher realities of our world they need to be taken to visit some of the places where animals are raised for our consumption. This would let them see how hard life on the land is, and help them make the connection between the steak on their plate and the animal that lost its life, and also the people whose job it was to slaughter it.
A trip to a piggery or a battery chicken farm would be a good education too, would let them see the level of cruelty that some animals are subjected to and maybe encourage them to develop their own ethics and a level of understanding that may prompt them to make changes to the way we farm animals when they become adults…or not.
I’m not sure about the rest of the post...
I grew up on a farm and to kill a ewe to feed the family was never given a second thought, either you eat that or starve to death
I understand and accept that it’s your choice to kill and eat the ewe, but to say that you would starve if you didn’t sounds a little extreme to me, I mean there’s other things that we can eat that don’t involve killing something.
Actually, taking the whole treatment and killing of animals for food topic to a perhaps more philosophical level...and considering the OP’s initial question…
if it was accepted in your own mind, as a 100% proven fact, that animals are at least as intelligent as a human child, would that change your current perception of what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable treatment of animals?
...I can’t say that I’ve ever heard a moral argument that justifies the killing of an animal for any reason, whether it is for pleasure or for food, except perhaps if it’s to put it out of it’s misery. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:01:19 AM | so, by humanising a bird or any animal for that fact, giving it a cutesy human name, sketching it in a human likeness, teaching it to talk like a human, somehow makes it more intelligent. nope, i don't buy it - sorry.
I think you've missed the point. It hasn't made the bird more intelligent. The sharing of human language has merely enabled a mechanism for us humans to be able to see the bird's existing intelligence. The bird is naturally intelligent, but we don't like to acknowledge intelligence on any terms other than our own...and we can't speak parrot...so they taught Alex how to play on our terms to a certain extent, because we value language. We accredit intelligence to any species that can learn to communicate on our terms. The language was merely a vehicle to eventually tap into Alex's own thoughts. Language was the means, not the end. It was to help us, not Alex.
But I do realise that not everyone is receptive to even considering the possibility of what they were trying to prove.
(except when chowing down on a chicken parma or steak dianne at the local) You forgot to add "yummmmm".
This type of comment often gets thrown out there in any discussion about animals. It strikes me as being indicative of some degree of aggression, given that nobody at any point had said "don't eat animals" that would necessitate any sense of having to defend that position. (EDIT: although Jules did just pose the question while I was writing this...but that was clearly after the point was raised from the other perspective) And yet, despite no mention of not eating animals, I think you were the third person to go that angle on this thread. In fact, the first thing poster 2 thought to say was that he was going to eat Alex if he was starving...which he's not, apparently, so it's really very interesting that it was the first thing he thought to say. I guess these are examples of the "strong aversion" referenced in an earlier quoted article.
But it's not a new reaction. There have been other times in history when people were trying to get the broader public to recognise that a formerly held notion was based on misassumptions and lack of awareness, that were also met with vehement rejection (via flippancy/dismissiveness, ridicule, the 'let's talk about something pleasant' approach). Like when some fools tried to convince an unready world that women were capable of the same degree of thought as men. As if!
why can't we all just live nicely together without making the big song and dance about it all Why can't we quite simply talk about it without it being called a big song and dance? Why does it bug you so much as a topic?
VVV Like ya style you down there in the post below. VVV | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:07:20 AM | Do animals have individual personalites within one species? Do they have 'character'? Are some more naturally timid, or some more outgoing than others? Do they develop beyond mere instinct when they bond with or relate closely with humans that love and care for them? Do they have a consciousness? A soul?
Even if animals are basically pretty stupid and fit only to eat, isn't it true that they can still feel pain and fear? Is it not our responsbility as thinking, feeling, intelligent humans to ensure that every animal we are responsible for is given the best life possible and to use our intellectual powers to devise methods of farming and killing that don't subject animals to cruelty and fear in the moments leading up to their death? That would be the 'humane' thing to do, would it not? And since humane = awfully clever, surely such an enlightened and intelligent species would never allow a fellow creature to suffer, since having empathy is one of the hallmarks of intelligence, or so I've heard.
Or are some humans just a little too thick to think beyond their dinner plates? Like an animal... only thinking of food, breeding and survival and not capable of thinking and reasoning beyond that? | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:11:09 AM | The idea of thrill killing is obscene in my mind, a long gone friend of mine use to shoot any bird that perched in his backyard with his air-rifle, it disgusted me so much that I offered to buy the gun of him. He accepted my price and I ended up with a gun that gathered dust, but at least I stopped the stupidity of his actions.
Julianx, nice point about farm animals, although I must admit that in my youth, getting up at 3am in the middle of winter to help pull a calf out of a cow took the gloss out of it sometimes, but always a good feeling when walking away from a job well done with both doing well. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:19:20 AM | Oh, by the way, did you notice how I slipped the word 'breeding' into my post? Who said this thread isn't about sex? Is it not written, "All threads will eventually get around to being about the birds and the bees."?
Thus spaketh LULT. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:26:07 AM | The difficulty you have with bandying around terms like "humane" and sugesting that Intelligence has a commonly defines end point is that you get the odd person that is extremely highly intelligent that just hasnt drawn the same conclusions as yourself
Ps if you dont want the cow to suffer just point and yell "look over there", im sure they will have some from of comprehension, and the idea that you can murder without causing pain or suffering is extremely naive
Reasoning beyond that is so subjective and begging to "think like me" I choose to eat animals and take responsibility for it, as per some of the more highly thought of tribal cultures I thank the grace of nature for providing for survival. If you wouldnt kill it dont eat it. Eating, living and breeding are primal instincts, but should not be mistaken as lacking intelligence, forethought or comprehension of the implication of what you have done. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:30:16 AM | "intelligent humans to ensure that every animal we are responsible for is given the best life possible and to use our intellectual powers to devise methods of farming and killing that don't subject animals to cruelty and fear in the moments leading up to their death? That would be the 'humane' thing to do"
This sounds like a chapter from the "Final Solution"
remember "all amimals are equal, some animals are more equal than others" | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 6:38:37 AM | And now for something completely different.....
http://www.members.shaw.ca/gf3/circle-the-cat.html | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 7:10:52 AM | ^^^ Haha! Cute. Got it on my 3rd try.
Now for something completely on topic...
Is it impossible to change farming practices from what they are today? Is it acceptable to keep treating animals in the most appalling manner as we've done for so long to keep up with market demands and allow farmers to make a reasonable living? Is money the bottom line then?
Is it so hard to accept that wanting animals to be treated with respect does not mean it's impossible to understand the role animals have as a food source?
I think most people would prefer to remain ignorant of the plight of animals that end up on our plates. It doesn't seem that intelligent to me, but I guess that it's easier not to think about the realities. That as long as we buy milk cartons that have pretty pictures of Daisy the cow, wearing a quaint cow bell, grazing happily on a green field with blue sky and fluffy white clouds... it'll all be ok. You know, you can almost see Daisy smile on that carton of milk and it just makes one feel all warm and fuzzy drinking wholesome milk fresh from the farm, doesn't it?
Ignorance is bliss hey?
I do prefer to humanise and anthropomorphise pretty Daisy on the carton... coz the reality is
"Veal" calves are torn from their mothers at birth, chained by the neck for 16 weeks in tiny, filthy wooden crates, and force-fed an anemia-inducing liquid formula. They are deprived of their natural diet--including water, roughage, and iron--as well as exercise, fresh air, sunshine, and their mother's love.
Meanwhile, their mothers (dairy cows) suffer horribly as they are pumped full of growth hormones and perpetually impregnated for their milk. When their production slumps, they are slaughtered.
Poor Daisy, and poor us too. Daisy's udders are permanently stretched to capacity as she produces and produces milk for us, her overburdened udders hurt her as they rub together and chaffe. The farmer has to add antibiotics to her diet to prevent infection, but still a certain amount of pus leaks into our milk supply. The anti biotics go through her system and we drink them too, along with miniscule amounts of puss from her infected teats.
Yum yum... milkshake anyone?
http://www.wfad.org/about/treatment.htm
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/1/2009 1:59:56 PM | I have great respect for animals of all kinds. Some are amazingly intelligent. You just have to look into their eyes to know that. I've had all sorts of animals come up to me and we "communicate." In fact, two days ago, a Canadian Goose came up to within 5 feet of me and we had a "conversation" that lasted quite awhile.
I've had very smart cats and some that were dumb as a doornail. I swear my current cat says thank you when I let her in the door. Other people have heard her also. (Of course, it isn't in perfect English.)
I continue to eat meat of all kinds, eggs, dairy products. I would prefer the animal products be processed humanely. Unfortunately, unless I have a farm, I can't guarantee that. I do give thanks to my God and the animals for giving their lives for my sustenance. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 4:31:41 AM | | I grew up in a farming community and can assure you that the cows that we milked the drystock and sheep that we raised, and ate were not treated badly until the day they were stunned to death and fed through the slaughter house (most meat eaters prefer not to hear the reality of this), at which I also worked in my university holidays. and we had "pet sheep and cows". I would suggest that the countries that raise stock in the manor that you are talking should not be producing the product they are as the conditions are not suitable. Leave it to the countries that have the lush green pastures large enough to give the animal a good life, there is no argument that most animals exhibit intelligence of some sort, even mimicking shows a level of intelligence, perhaps a better name would be pea brain? | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 5:03:21 AM | My late Dad was up here visiting once, as we stood on the veranda a pair of king parrots landed in the lower gully... you don't see them too often.... awwwwwwwww.. pretty...
hey look dad.. a couple of kingys.... pretty eh?
ooooo, bluddy good eating those buggas..... huh? I was aghast.. wtf!.... you ate parrots?.....geez...
oh yeh, we were often sent out in the scrub by mum to scout for some tucker in case the old man didn't come back from town with anything flash...
at least kingies were a bit bigger than greenes... lorikeets... we'd have to get 30 or more of them to put in the pot for a good stew.... whampoo pidgeons, wild ducks, we ate all kinds of things ... the glint in his eye and smile of reminescence was wonderful.....
this is just out the back of Eumundi.. between the wars..... subsistance living... pigs and pumpkins, chooks, bush honey... horses and carts...
and Parrots for food.... ewwwwwwwwww | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 6:00:40 AM | ~ Alex's species is endangered ... and we are not starving.
LULT, our laws do prevent farmers from crating veal calves in Australia, but they are still taken from their mum straight away...and the crating still goes on in other "civilised" countries...and Daisy still gets treated like a machine in a way nature didn't design her to cope with.
However we do still crate pigs here. Pigs are known for their intelligence...the scientists say the same as a dog, or a young human child. On pig farms they keep the sow in a concrete pen, bars around her, can't move, nothing to see or do, no sunlight or grass. They artificially inseminate her, she stands there and grows piglets. Just before birthing they pin her down on her side. Once the piglets are born they are taken away without her even being able to turn and see them, and she is stood up again and artificially inseminated. They keep using her to make piglets until her reproductive system collapses. Her mind will usually snap before her body, and I've seen footage of pigs standing there rocking gently and mindlessly sucking on the metal bars, driven mad from sheer pain, grief and boredom.
There was a piggery recently busted in Tasmania...breeding sows were being kept in such unsanitary conditions that the live animals had maggots on their flesh, eating them alive. Pigs are actually quite clean animals, although their foraging habits tend to make mud, but in nature they'd move on...whereas we keep them penned in the mud. But these girls were on concrete, surrounded by bars, and the farm owners were just really slack with the cleaning. The farm had some fancy schmancy accrediation on display on the gate, and is one of the major supplier of pig products to Woolworths....the fresh food people. Fresh maggots...aww bless.
Here's the happy Australian farms with smiling pigs story....
The piggery is one of Tasmania's biggest and is also a supplier to the self-proclaimed Fresh Food People, supermarket giant Woolworths. Ms Haswell said she was appalled at what she saw, including a sow infested with maggots. "She can't move, she's lying in faeces, mud and maggots," she said. "I would never have imagined I'd find an animal in this condition. She's being eaten alive."
"The first thing I saw was an Australian Quality Assured pork sign on the entrance to the farm.
"The first thing that stood out to me, obviously the smell and the squalor, the flies, the maggots. "There were open drains everywhere that were seething with maggots.
"There were emaciated sows in stalls that couldn't move, they had wounds on them, they had enormous abscesses that meant their legs were two or three times the normal size, she said. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/08/2565046.htm?site=northtas | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 6:22:29 AM | ^^^ Me too. I cannot fathom how a human being can run a place like that and sleep at night. But the truth is that as long as consumers pressure Woolworths to sell cheap bacon and pork, Woolworths will keep pressuring their producers to make it cheaper cheaper cheaper...and the producers are gonna use the crating...and cut costs. Whenever costs are cut the animals suffer.
There are free range pig farms around, and butchers and supermarkets will stock it if enough consumers ask for it. I gave up eating pig almost a decade ago when I first learned what goes on at piggeries and decided to take responsibility for my choices, as you were talking about earlier. I occasionally get some free range pork and bacon. It's a different colour and tastes amazingly different. | |
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